Human Superiority (again)

[MBehave]

Humanity isn't small, population wise they vastly outnumber the Loroi 3 main worlds on Earth alone...
its something like 20+ billion humans and the Loroi I think its around 3 billion on their most populated world and less on their other main worlds.

As 1% of human population is living off Earth that makes 200+million humans on other planets/asteroids/spacestations/orbital shipyards etc.

From a pure industrial standpoint Earth alone using the solar system for resources which happens to be a metal rich system which is actually rare in our current part of the galaxy(real life not in outsiders)
Human resources alone after a few years of industrial infrastructure could give the side we ally with the needed material to win the war, assuming the Loroi last that long considering their lines have just been broken.

It would be very fair to say that Humans could quite possibly put up a fight if they can last long enough, emulating Russia in WW2 where they used sheer population and inferior equipment to drown their enemy in bodies.
It has a horrible cost but it was effective, if the ships don't need jump drives, long endurance(supplies and long lasting life support) Defense system ships could be mass produced leaky tin buckets with no armour including lack of good Radiation shielding and crews that are only taught how to fight not repair/maintain the ships.

Horrible?
Yes
Inhumane
Yes
Fighting for the survival of the species and governments and people willing to do it?
Yes

In my opinion
Terrans in Outsider can actually WIN as a major combatant by(assuming neither side wins during this time)
1.Staying out of the main conflict and simply producing defensive systems to ward off Umiak/Loroi(not being worth the cost) while closing the tech gap and expanding industry
2.Once tech gap is closed producing fleets/personal/supply while Loroi/Umiak continue to suffer attrition.
3.Once the fleets are large enough launch an all out offensive with no warning against the Umiak and Loroi at the same time, with focus on penetrating deep into inner systems and destroying infrastructure and then focusing on destroying fleets.

I think maybe part of it is because (understandably) many people look at Outsider as if it was an RPG or strategy game setting ("Loroi are OP!"), and partly because popular Scifi has spoonfed everyone settings like Star Trek, Babylon 5 and Stargate in which Humanity is not the most technically advanced, yet somehow we're always in charge of everything, our enemies have better technology than we do but are somehow really stupid, and those ultra-tech aliens who occasionally drop by to pat us on the head and humble us never seem to be around when the galaxy is in trouble.

In addition to this problem (i.e. a tendency towards viewing things through a Grand Strategy lens, perhaps due to the persistent popularity of '4X' style sci-fi games) I suspect people aren't fully accounting for the implications of the strategic situation as a whole. If human civilization was relatively small or at a steep tech disadvantage, it'd be an excellent "underdog" setup for a Grand Strategy style story. But humanity is both small and hopelessly out-tech'd. In science fiction stories like this, humanity's survival typically hinges on asymmetric advantages derived from unusual origins, such as powerful cultural forces. The "Halo" series is a good example of a thoughtful and effective implementation of this. Just because technology is inherited doesn't mean that those inheriting are stupid or arrogant enough to decline truly mastering the knowledge - indeed, mastery would be required in any scenario falling short of a full technical database being discovered. (Christopher Columbus couldn't reverse-engineer a nuclear submarine but possession of such would accelerate his entire species's scientific advancement considerably nonetheless, starting with the metallurgy of the deckplates.) Halo's universe attributes it to religion - and not just an arbitrary religious edict, but a fundamental tenet of a religion responsible for unifying a plurality of sapient species into a stable and unified polity. For Halo's "Covenant," pursuing a more fundamental understanding of the theory behind their technology bears existential risks. (This is also the source of the entire story/series plot's instigating incident.) "Stargate" is another solid example; in which modern-day humanity's ability to resist a much more advanced, galaxy-spanning alien empire owes chiefly to the titular technology itself; built by a precursor race whom intelligently sized their wormhole portals adequately for shipping containers but wholly incapable of transporting military forces en-masse short of infantry walking into an easily-covered killzone (and as the series itself demonstrates, tech disparities are least significant at infantry scale.) These two examples are emblematic of how "hopelessly outclassed humanity" is handled in the science-fiction current generations are familiar with.

Hence the confusion - not only does the personal focus of the story de-emphasize the background strategic situation (as it should) to the point that it doesn't possess "glowing neon clue-bat" obviousness, but sci-fi readers are just accustomed to "crammed cosmos" settings with multiple species preferring a focus on fundamental differences (for reasons ranging from thoughtful exploration of truly alien species to lazy "planet of hats" writing. Proud Warrior Race Guy etc.) The "4X" influenced, ironically, should be more sensitive to your narrative solution but tend to be blinded by the vast asymmetry of starting positions (anathema for games despite being integral to fiction.) Thus you have an unusual number of people missing the blatant strategic "realpolitik" answer - a species too small and backwards to pose any threat whatsoever is also hardly worth the effort to attack for major polities in a deadlocked existential conflict.

Humanity's situation is dire indeed - not only is the species's entire "fleet" numerically equivalent (and tonnage inferior) to a major combatant's single small frontier squadron, but a single light warship of any major combatant could easily destroy that entire fleet without taking damage in anything approaching an engagement on even terms. By the same token, however, none of the major combatants would have much to gain by attacking humanity - slaves are of little use to people trucking around with antimatter drives, given the level of automation they likely possess; all of humanity's heavy industry is built upon a hopelessly outdated tech base, etc. Indeed, the danger to humanity (as far as their current in-story intel would suggest, if I read it right) lies in someone deciding to conduct such depredations "while they're there" due to the ease of it while pursuing other objectives - as illustrated by humanity being in danger of discovery primarily because of aggressive scouting efforts to find new travel routes to bypass defended front-line systems.

Like the aforementioned examples, your setting has a reason for humanity having a shot at survival that is so strong it is fundamental to the underlying premise - and one visible from reading the story itself, without having to be told the hobbit analogy. To wit; if you have A. a bunch of sapient species that lucked into tons of ancient technology from precursor civilizations to reverse-engineer and B. they have no fundamental cultural or psychological forces preventing them from doing due diligence in mastering said technology, then C. they are almost certainly going to point their shiny new rayguns at their neighbors, who also have shiny new reverse-engineered rayguns, and proceed to zap the ever-loving daylights out of each other. That the Space Elves™ were fighting interstellar wars while humanity was still fighting on horseback sounds majestic and awesome until you account for interstellar war posing an existential threat to a species that some guys on big animals with pointy sticks just can't muster. Even at our most fractious and genocidal, the worst long-term consequences of intra-species war tends to be acceleration of technology development (necessity etc.) whereas for inter-species war defeat doesn't simply mean a different faction of your species becomes top dog, but that your entire civilization could be erased from existence with your cratered husk of a home-world as your tombstone. This is a rather steep price to pay for the massive head-start in technological development, enough so that it probably goes a long, long way towards explaining how humans went from armored knights charging each other on horseback during the High Middle Ages to torch-ships and laser cannons in the same timeframe it took the Loroi to go from fusion-torchships to antimatter drives. Even accounting for the sharp climb of the technological difficulty curve, that still suggests growing up in a neighborhood littered with discarded shotguns of precursor wizards was not fun. When you consider the massive barriers between alien species as compared to those between factions of the same species, it's clear that cross-pollination/percolation of information in inter-species, inter-stellar war will be greatly reduced compared to intra-species war. The Loroi and everyone else, from their star-faring epoch, have been trapped in a thunder-dome of the precursor species's (inadvertent) making. The other races may be inclined to view humans as the lucky ones, comparatively. "Your closest brush with existential destruction was a series of wars and standoffs that took you from your first heavier-than-air flight to your first landing on your own moon in less than one lifetime? Wow. Sounds nice. I bet we could have achieved similar leaps if we hadn't been occupied preventing multiple angry alien species from incinerating our entire civilization from the cosmos with ionized pillars of fire from the heavens. But yeah, ICBMs, sounds rough dude."

Undoubtedly some of what I've said isn't completely accurate to the story (told or untold), much less it missing the fundamental point of what kind of story it is. But even then, for those concerned with such things, it should be obvious that humanity's inability to contest even a small alien fleet is counter-balanced by the powerful disincentives for aliens to commit a small fleet to a pointless target when every hull is desperately needed to hold off a powerful and equally-matched enemy. This is the situation of which good stories are made; where desperate ruses, noble sacrifices and ingenious, hasty improvisation can save the day. This is obvious if one appreciates that "getting a Terran cruiser into mass-driver range of a single Umiak scout-ship" could indeed save the day - or at least buy six months for someone else to do it by other means, which is functionally identical. Just because this story is about Benjamin Franklin working his diplomatic magic in Great Powers territory (right down to his popularity with the ladies, ahem,) doesn't mean that Washington's useless or his struggles in vain. Or to borrow the LOTR analogy, just because the armies of Mordor hopelessly outmatched the good guys didn't mean that Gandalf and Aragorn banging on the Black Gate and daring Sauron to come out and tussle if he thought he was hard enough was pointless. A similar setup in this story is neither implied nor necessary, but those presuming it to be entirely precluded on the basis of what we've seen so far have, in my humble opinion, neglected to factor in the consequences of both sides in the war being very, very busy with each other.

Apologies for the tl;dr but I found your background setting details to be remarkably thorough, thoughtful and hard sci-fi justifiable, so I just wanted to say that you have clearly done nothing wrong.

[gaerzi]

It would be very fair to say that Humans could quite possibly put up a fight if they can last long enough, emulating Russia in WW2 where they used sheer population and inferior equipment to drown their enemy in bodies.

That's kind of a legend, caused by the West being mostly aware of the Russian front from the German perspective, which obviously was incredibly biased.

In my opinion
Terrans in Outsider can actually WIN as a major combatant by(assuming neither side wins during this time)
1.Staying out of the main conflict and simply producing defensive systems to ward off Umiak/Loroi(not being worth the cost) while closing the tech gap and expanding industry
2.Once tech gap is closed producing fleets/personal/supply while Loroi/Umiak continue to suffer attrition.
3.Once the fleets are large enough launch an all out offensive with no warning against the Umiak and Loroi at the same time, with focus on penetrating deep into inner systems and destroying infrastructure and then focusing on destroying fleets.

The way things have been presented in comic, it's doubtful that humanity has the time to implement this plan. It seems like the Loroi are going to be crushed pretty soon since the Umiak always had the superior numbers, it's just that the Loroi knew where to concentrate their lesser numbers to obtain a tactical advantage despite their strategic handicap. So they could manage to blunt Umiak offensives enough to keep the stalemate going, but it was a stalemate of a fighting retreat -- the Loroi never managed to actually attack Umiak planets, even the Semoset initiative only damaged some client-state borderland of the Umiak.

So, as things stand, the Loroi could be crushed very soon, and then Humaniti would be next because the Umiak are paranoid and expansionist and it's clear that for them there's no such thing as an enemy not worth the cost of crushing.

Then there's the other issue of managing to penetrate deep into enemy territory. For the Umiak, again, that's going to be a problem because they are paranoid and expansionist. So their empire is very large and we don't really know where exactly which systems are the most strategic. Loroi intel is limited to some client states. The Umiak worlds are unknown.

[Cthulhu]

Humanity isn't small, population wise they vastly outnumber the Loroi 3 main worlds on Earth alone...
its something like 20+ billion humans and the Loroi I think its around 3 billion on their most populated world and less on their other main worlds.

As 1% of human population is living off Earth that makes 200+million humans on other planets/asteroids/spacestations/orbital shipyards etc.

From a pure industrial standpoint Earth alone using the solar system for resources which happens to be a metal rich system which is actually rare in our current part of the galaxy(real life not in outsiders)
Human resources alone after a few years of industrial infrastructure could give the side we ally with the needed material to win the war, assuming the Loroi last that long considering their lines have just been broken.

It would be very fair to say that Humans could quite possibly put up a fight if they can last long enough, emulating Russia in WW2 where they used sheer population and inferior equipment to drown their enemy in bodies.
It has a horrible cost but it was effective, if the ships don't need jump drives, long endurance(supplies and long lasting life support) Defense system ships could be mass produced leaky tin buckets with no armour including lack of good Radiation shielding and crews that are only taught how to fight not repair/maintain the ships.

Horrible?
Yes
Inhumane
Yes
Fighting for the survival of the species and governments and people willing to do it?
Yes

In my opinion
Terrans in Outsider can actually WIN as a major combatant by(assuming neither side wins during this time)
1.Staying out of the main conflict and simply producing defensive systems to ward off Umiak/Loroi(not being worth the cost) while closing the tech gap and expanding industry
2.Once tech gap is closed producing fleets/personal/supply while Loroi/Umiak continue to suffer attrition.
3.Once the fleets are large enough launch an all out offensive with no warning against the Umiak and Loroi at the same time, with focus on penetrating deep into inner systems and destroying infrastructure and then focusing on destroying fleets.

This doesn't make sense on so many levels, that it would be hard to name them all, so let's list the major errors.

1. Both the Hierarchy and the Union have hundreds of worlds and thousands of ships. Matching the numbers is impossible. Producing what is essentially duds for target practice won't win a war.
2. Matching technology is also impossible. This often-repeated (western) myth of Russian human-waves with nothing but an old rifle per squad is utter nonsense. The USSR had comparable technology and industrial capacity, the TCA here would need to jump a couple of tech levels and conjure up the infrastructure almost instantly.
3. Humanity does not have much time anyway. If the Orgus could stumble upon Esperanza, an Umiak scout might do the same in a couple of years or tomorrow. Considering the tech gap, even an old bivouac division could wipe out the entire TCA with nothing but a single missile salvo. Without the fear of retaliation, to boot!

[Zorg56]

Solution can be in technologies that is nosense for other races but will work if you have industrial capacity to spare.

If TCA will make 1000 of its current ship designs it wont make much difference simply because of the weapon range and speed difference, on the other hand, TCA can theoretically make fewer ships, but using more expensive tech.
Like powering ships by antimatter, absurdly expensive and ineffective by cost to firepower ratio for Loroi/umiak, viable choice for us.
Space stations dozens of kilometers in size in key points, armed with gargantuan laser canons that overcome range difference by scale.
Again absurd for loroi/umiak, but better then making 1000 ships that not gona hit anything and all loose to a single corvette.

[Cthulhu]

Solution can be in technologies that is nosense for other races but will work if you have industrial capacity to spare.

If TCA will make 1000 of its current ship designs it wont make much difference simply because of the weapon range and speed difference, on the other hand, TCA can theoretically make fewer ships, but using more expensive tech.
Like powering ships by antimatter, absurdly expensive and ineffective by cost to firepower ratio for Loroi/umiak, viable choice for us.
Space stations dozens of kilometers in size in key points, armed with gargantuan laser canons that overcome range difference by scale.
Again absurd for loroi/umiak, but better then making 1000 ships that not gona hit anything and all loose to a single corvette.

1. Humans can't produce antimatter on industrial scale yet, but it's the standard fuel for the major combatants.
2. Building gigantic ships would require decades, but time is the crucial resource that is in short supply there!
3. Bigger is not always better, you'd simply make a very good (big and slow) target for the Umiak torpedoes.

Honestly, we had this discussion at least four times already, and all those (and even more) arguments were refuted long ago.

[Zorg56]

Solution can be in technologies that is nosense for other races but will work if you have industrial capacity to spare.

If TCA will make 1000 of its current ship designs it wont make much difference simply because of the weapon range and speed difference, on the other hand, TCA can theoretically make fewer ships, but using more expensive tech.
Like powering ships by antimatter, absurdly expensive and ineffective by cost to firepower ratio for Loroi/umiak, viable choice for us.
Space stations dozens of kilometers in size in key points, armed with gargantuan laser canons that overcome range difference by scale.
Again absurd for loroi/umiak, but better then making 1000 ships that not gona hit anything and all loose to a single corvette.

1. Humans can't produce antimatter on industrial scale yet, but it's the standard fuel for the major combatants.
2. Building gigantic ships would require decades, but time is the crucial resource that is in short supply there!
3. Bigger is not always better, you'd simply make a very good (big and slow) target for the Umiak torpedoes.

Honestly, we had this discussion at least four times already, and all those (and even more) arguments were refuted long ago.

1. True, but it depends only on will to invest in it, other races dont do it simply because they have much cheaper alternative.

2. Depends only on how much industrial power you dedicate to it, you can even start building it before you finished designing it utilizing modular construction type. Only thing TCA have in numbers is industrial capacity,l.

3. Funny enough, they only thing TCA ships can actually do reliably on par with loroi/umiak counterparts is shoot down torpedoes.

+ Keep in minds that on a structure on this scale you can literally put some absurd armor belt like 25m or bigger, i doubt even strongest umiak plasma focus gona pen that from the first shot.

i think i saw it once and thats about it.

[Cthulhu]

1. True, but it depends only on will to invest in it, other races dont do it simply because they have much cheaper alternative.

2. Depends only on how much industrial power you dedicate to it, you can even start building it before you finished designing it utilizing modular construction type. Only thing TCA have in numbers is industrial capacity,l.

3. Funny enough, they only thing TCA ships can actually do reliably on par with loroi/umiak counterparts is shoot down torpedoes.

+ Keep in minds that on a structure on this scale you can literally put some absurd armor belt like 25m or bigger, i doubt even strongest umiak plasma focus gona pen that from the first shot.

i think i saw it once and thats about it.

1. The major combatants already use taimat (antimatter-type) fuel. For centuries. It will take too long for the TCA to catch up.
2. That's not going to work since the humans would need to catch up in every single field. Generators, hull, armor, weapons, even power cables.
3. Only given enough point-defense capability. Keep in mind that without shields, armor is not particularly effective, and even a single torpedo will be fatal. Also, something featuring 25 meter of armor will be slow as all hell. The Umiak would not even need torpedoes, just standard kinetic weapons they use for planetary assaults. Those are cheap enough to saturate any defenses.
4. If you saw it once, then you've seen them all.

P.S. The ship profiles and weapon specs are explained in the Insider

[Zorg56]

[quote=Cthulhu post_id=41954 time=1628275382 user_id=5677]
[quote=Zorg56 post_id=41953 time=1628274338 user_id=6842]
1. True, but it depends only on will to invest in it, other races dont do it simply because they have much cheaper alternative.

2. Depends only on how much industrial power you dedicate to it, you can even start building it before you finished designing it utilizing modular construction type. Only thing TCA have in numbers is industrial capacity,l.

3. Funny enough, they only thing TCA ships can actually do reliably on par with loroi/umiak counterparts is shoot down torpedoes.

+ Keep in minds that on a structure on this scale you can literally put some absurd armor belt like 25m or bigger, i doubt even strongest umiak plasma focus gona pen that from the first shot.

i think i saw it once and thats about it.
[/quote]
1. The major combatants already use taimat (antimatter-type) fuel. For centuries. It will take too long for the TCA to catch up.
2. That's not going to work since the humans would need to catch up in [b]every[/b] [b]single[/b] field. Generators, hull, armor, weapons, even power cables.
3. Only given enough point-defense capability. Keep in mind that without shields, armor is not particularly effective, and even a single torpedo will be fatal. Also, something featuring 25 [i]meter [/i]of armor will be slow as all hell. The Umiak would not even need torpedoes, just standard kinetic weapons they use for planetary assaults. Those are cheap enough to saturate any defenses.
4. If you saw it once, then you've seen them all.

P.S. The ship profiles and weapon specs are explained in the [url=https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/insider.html]Insider[/url]
[/quote]

1. Tiamat is not antimatter, it is far cheaper fuel of higher tech level that have similiar power output.

2. Dont remember saying opposite. But few huge battlestations can deny invasion simply because it will take actually significant forces to blast them. So it will buy some time atleast and prevent easy genocide from either loroi or umiak.

3. And like i said- the only thing TCA have on par with major combatants is PD capability. Ofcourse it will be slow, it is 20 KM long jump point Guard station. No they are not cheap nor they are unstopable by any means, umiak even dont hope that they will hit anything at all in loroi lines- they only use them to tank loroi long range weapons.

And what i am saying cant be on a list- i am talking about scaling las canons to fit the size of guard station of monstrois scale so it will have effective range of around 1.2 light second, this obviously is not on the list.

[Krulle]

The Umiak are willing to take 50% losses with deep jumps.
How will a nearly non-mobile asteroid help?

Laos, jump points are larger than a light-second.
So where will you "park" it?

And where to park the ones to interdict deep jumping?


I see some very large logistical gaps in your idea.

Behemoths won't work. Especially in Arioch's universe.



Also, our large industrial base is on the surface of one single planet.
The Umiak/Loroi industrial capacity for building space ships is in space.
Lifting heavy things from surface to space is still f'in expensive for us.

I guess if you're changing your industry to a war industry, with the additional costs of space lifting everything, and within the time frame necessary, a lot of people will quickly say "let us become slaves in exchange for technology to make that cheaper".
Because that will allow an actual higher standard of living.


Because what us is our mask and clothing manufacturing basis for building spaceships and defense stations?


It'll all be just very expensive shooting ducks for whoever wishes to conquer us.

[Zorg56]

The Umiak are willing to take 50% losses with deep jumps.
How will a nearly non-mobile asteroid help?

Laos, jump points are larger than a light-second.
So where will you "park" it?

And where to park the ones to interdict deep jumping?


I see some very large logistical gaps in your idea.

Behemoths won't work. Especially in Arioch's universe.



Also, our large industrial base is on the surface of one single planet.
The Umiak/Loroi industrial capacity for building space ships is in space.
Lifting heavy things from surface to space is still f'in expensive for us.

I guess if you're changing your industry to a war industry, with the additional costs of space lifting everything, and within the time frame necessary, a lot of people will quickly say "let us become slaves in exchange for technology to make that cheaper".
Because that will allow an actual higher standard of living.


Because what us is our mask and clothing manufacturing basis for building spaceships and defense stations?


It'll all be just very expensive shooting ducks for whoever wishes to conquer us.

Well, it is still differense between sending single corvette and actual fleet.
At the center of jump point most likely.
It is very unlikely that umiak will deep jump system they never visited before, because that means not loosing 50% of your fleet, but 100% of it.
+ It is possible to even delay contact by sniping lone scout that just jumped in, they will most likely will count on false jump calculations, atleast for the 1 one missing.
Only weapons that could possibly do that on TCA tech level will be gargantuan in scale.

So... You want to willingly become slave simply because you dont go to war practically?.. Did i understood that correctly?
Those Behemoths already exist in outsider universe, and Seren have espicially massive one.

[Cthulhu]

Let's see, how to phrase it differently: IT WILL NOT WORK! You're trying to build a Soia dread-star with "sticks and stones"-level of tech.

We have chewed it through a couple of times already, let's not spam the Q&A thread. Arioch will have a hard time compiling it into the Insider database. If you want to discuss it, make a new thread, but read through the Insider pages and the previous discussions first. Maybe you will be able to find a new perspective, this one is not even particularly interesting.

Start from there, for example: Even a single jump-zone is big enough to need hundreds of such mega-stations (multiplied by the number of jump-zones), since lasers, no matter how huge, have a max. range that won't cover the several AUs of an average zone. On the other hand, this behemoth will be too slow to intercept enemy fleets, thus they can simply beeline for the homeworld and hit it with kinetics. The war's over. How can you prevent that?
Besides, remember that a laser is not faster than light, and we're talking about enormous distances here. (1 AU is about 8 light-minutes)

[MBehave]

Putting words in my mouth claiming I said they aint armed?
My entire reference was to the INDUSTRIAL output of Soviet Russia to replace the losses their inferior forces suffered which is documented FACT not myth.
EG ~5 tanks and 10 artillery/anti tank guns per 1 German tank trade rate until 1944 and they actually got a decent tank mass produced.
As for producing "DUDS"... it worked for Russia...
They did not have comparable technology, shortage of semi and full automatic rifles until 1943, lack of tank comparability until 1944, and their airforce was utterly trash at the start of the war.

Onto Outsider...
Neither Loroi or Umiak like other populations building war fleets, as such they mostly only provide resources, defeating the Loroi/Umiak fleets and destroying shipyards is effectively the end of the war. They both also have many races under their control which hate them.

As for human tech rate
Humans develop jump drive independently in 2086 and field ships on par with the Loroi in their first interstellar war and have developed blasters something the Loroi had to take from their enemy at this point.
Time from Jump drive to Terran current fleet: 74 years.
Loroi reverse engineering a jump drive to first interstellar war: 400 years.

War has been going on 25 years, if nothing breaks the stalemate its possible it keeps going for another 25 with both sides being run down the entire time grinding their fleets away. Terran ships at this time also dont need to be on par with the Umiak/Loroi, neither do Terrans need to produce ships at a rate even half that of the Umiak/Loroi to end up with a over whelming fleet.

I feel 25 years is more then enough time when you take into account recovered tech from battlefields and traded for from both the Loroi and Umiak. Especially if you trade war material to the side that looks to be currently losing to keep the stalemate going...

Humanity isn't small, population wise they vastly outnumber the Loroi 3 main worlds on Earth alone...
its something like 20+ billion humans and the Loroi I think its around 3 billion on their most populated world and less on their other main worlds.

As 1% of human population is living off Earth that makes 200+million humans on other planets/asteroids/spacestations/orbital shipyards etc.

From a pure industrial standpoint Earth alone using the solar system for resources which happens to be a metal rich system which is actually rare in our current part of the galaxy(real life not in outsiders)
Human resources alone after a few years of industrial infrastructure could give the side we ally with the needed material to win the war, assuming the Loroi last that long considering their lines have just been broken.

It would be very fair to say that Humans could quite possibly put up a fight if they can last long enough, emulating Russia in WW2 where they used sheer population and inferior equipment to drown their enemy in bodies.
It has a horrible cost but it was effective, if the ships don't need jump drives, long endurance(supplies and long lasting life support) Defense system ships could be mass produced leaky tin buckets with no armour including lack of good Radiation shielding and crews that are only taught how to fight not repair/maintain the ships.

Horrible?
Yes
Inhumane
Yes
Fighting for the survival of the species and governments and people willing to do it?
Yes

In my opinion
Terrans in Outsider can actually WIN as a major combatant by(assuming neither side wins during this time)
1.Staying out of the main conflict and simply producing defensive systems to ward off Umiak/Loroi(not being worth the cost) while closing the tech gap and expanding industry
2.Once tech gap is closed producing fleets/personal/supply while Loroi/Umiak continue to suffer attrition.
3.Once the fleets are large enough launch an all out offensive with no warning against the Umiak and Loroi at the same time, with focus on penetrating deep into inner systems and destroying infrastructure and then focusing on destroying fleets.

This doesn't make sense on so many levels, that it would be hard to name them all, so let's list the major errors.

1. Both the Hierarchy and the Union have hundreds of worlds and thousands of ships. Matching the numbers is impossible. Producing what is essentially duds for target practice won't win a war.
2. Matching technology is also impossible. This often-repeated (western) myth of Russian human-waves with nothing but an old rifle per squad is utter nonsense. The USSR had comparable technology and industrial capacity, the TCA here would need to jump a couple of tech levels and conjure up the infrastructure almost instantly.
3. Humanity does not have much time anyway. If the Orgus could stumble upon Esperanza, an Umiak scout might do the same in a couple of years or tomorrow. Considering the tech gap, even an old bivouac division could wipe out the entire TCA with nothing but a single missile salvo. Without the fear of retaliation, to boot!

[Zorg56]

Let's see, how to phrase it differently: IT WILL NOT WORK! You're trying to build a Soia dread-star with "sticks and stones"-level of tech.

We have chewed it through a couple of times already, let's not spam the Q&A thread. Arioch will have a hard time compiling it into the Insider database. If you want to discuss it, make a new thread, but read through the Insider pages and the previous discussions first. Maybe you will be able to find a new perspective, this one is not even particularly interesting.

Start from there, for example: Even a single jump-zone is big enough to need hundreds of such mega-stations (multiplied by the number of jump-zones), since lasers, no matter how huge, have a max. range that won't cover the several AUs of an average zone. On the other hand, this behemoth will be too slow to intercept enemy fleets, thus they can simply beeline for the homeworld and hit it with kinetics. The war's over. How can you prevent that?
Besides, remember that a laser is not faster than light, and we're talking about enormous distances here. (1 AU is about 8 light-minutes)

Iirc arioch said somewhere that jump point is about 1 light second wide.
+ If if jump point were so big it dosent make sense for jump point guard stations to exist, but they do and we saw more then one.

[Arioch]

Iirc arioch said somewhere that jump point is about 1 light second wide.
+ If if jump point were so big it dosent make sense for jump point guard stations to exist, but they do and we saw more then one.

An inbound jump zone is comparatively narrow, not much more than 1 light minute wide, but a "safe jump" into a Sunlike star can arrive anywhere along that line more than an AU in length, or about 8-10 LM.



The main reason stations are placed near the jump zone is as a base for couriers or for a fleet to defend the zone. Stations can maneuver, but not as well as a starship. Giant death asteroids don't maneuver very well. Stations can be armed, and battlestations can have more weaponry pound for pound than a starship, but no single battlestation is a match for a whole fleet of enemy starships, as the fate of Gora Relay demonstrates. Nobody would park a battlestation alone in a jump zone and expect it to defend the zone by itself.

[Zorg56]

Iirc arioch said somewhere that jump point is about 1 light second wide.
+ If if jump point were so big it dosent make sense for jump point guard stations to exist, but they do and we saw more then one.

An inbound jump zone is comparatively narrow, not much more than 1 light minute wide, but a "safe jump" into a Sunlike star can arrive anywhere along that line more than an AU in length, or about 8-10 LM.



The main reason stations are placed near the jump zone is as a base for couriers or for a fleet to defend the zone. Stations can maneuver, but not as well as a starship. Giant death asteroids don't maneuver very well. Stations can be armed, and battlestations can have more weaponry pound for pound than a starship, but no single battlestation is a match for a whole fleet of enemy starships, as the fate of Gora Relay demonstrates. Nobody would park a battlestation alone in a jump zone and expect it to defend the zone by itself.

I see now.
My idea was that if enemy comes out of hyperspace inside the range of the station it is just forced to fight, but this is not the case since jump point is too big.
But whats the point of armed space station then if it cant prevent small raider geoups from passing by, they will just ignore it and jump.
Even small scout will be able to blast it with its secondary mass driver for planetary bombardment way beyond max range of its weapons, so not good at supply protection either.
It wont be able to support fighting fleet(stellaris like scenario where spaceport just shoots into two fighting fleets from the side), because of very limited weapon range.
So... Whats the kicker about gora relay like stations or even citadels?
Citadels specifically even become weakness in planetary defense scenario, simply because attacking side will just start blasting with mass drivers and defender will be forced to engage on the attacker terms (specifically bad for loroi, since umiak torpedoes are most effective in this kind of scenario).
Not to mention that resources that went into it could be turned into warships.

[Arioch]

Space stations are spacecraft; they're not "fixed." They're usually not as quick as starships, but they're plenty quick enough to make long-range ballistic attacks against them mostly useless. Mass drivers are only useful against targets that can't maneuver -- ground bases, moon bases, or asteroid doom weapons -- or at point-blank range.

In system defense, your worry is about incoming enemy ships, not outgoing enemy ships. The outbound jump zone is much wider than the inbound one, but the whole point of fleet defenses is to guard the border. Incoming fleets are met with defending fleets; stations are not expected to repel an attack alone. If you have enemy fleets trying to leave a system, then chances are your defending fleet completely failed to defend the system (which is what's currently happening at Leido).

As I said, the stations in the jump zones aren't there to defeat an incoming fleet; they're there as a base for couriers or for an actual defensive fleet. If the station has to be in harm's way, it makes sense to give it some defensive firepower (so there are not cheap kills from lone enemy scouts), but it can't stand alone against a fleet, and it won't be asked to even try. When it became clear in Leido that there wasn't an adequate fleet response to the Umiak crasher force, the relay stations were promptly evacuated. When Gora Relay was attacked, it had only a skeleton crew on board.

Large battlestations like citadels are rarely parked in a jump zone; they're more often near an inhabited planet to aid in the defense. But wherever the citadels are, they're not intended to fight alone. Fleets are the primary defense, not battlestations.


The article on System Defenses explains this in more detail.

[Cthulhu]

Putting words in my mouth claiming I said they aint armed?
My entire reference was to the INDUSTRIAL output of Soviet Russia to replace the losses their inferior forces suffered which is documented FACT not myth.
EG ~5 tanks and 10 artillery/anti tank guns per 1 German tank trade rate until 1944 and they actually got a decent tank mass produced.
As for producing "DUDS"... it worked for Russia...
They did not have comparable technology, shortage of semi and full automatic rifles until 1943, lack of tank comparability until 1944, and their airforce was utterly trash at the start of the war.

Sigh, no. They had decent tanks (T-34 and KV) and everything else. The USSR, just like France, had inferior tactics that could not counter the German Blitzkrieg at first. The Germans, having absorbed much of Europe, had also greater numbers. The Russians, however, refused to give up and with time, learned how to beat the Nazis, together with their Allies.

Your comparison with the Axis vs. Allies WW2 is ill-fitting anyway, and your superficial knowledge doesn't help it either.

A better analogue would be some small kingdom in south-eastern Asia trying to resist the encroaching British Empire. They may attempt negotiations or could try to craft as many swords and muskets as they can, but it's not going to help them. As soon as the Crown sends a proper expedition force armed with rifles and artillery, it's all over.

You should study the Insider database and read the previous arguments on this matter. After that, you can either come up with a new approach nobody had discovered yet, or realize how screwed Humanity really is. If you think that your idea is novel and interesting, present it in a new thread, and we can discuss it. Otherwise, you can write a fanfic where the tech gap is not that overwhelming or introduce some other kind of equalizer.

*Tactical solar system overview*

How "thick" is this jump-zone then?

[MBehave]

Until they copied the Germans the Russians were using solid steel or HE as AntiTank rounds.
Germans were using a tungsten core Rod with a hard tip and a soft body to allow it to penetrate armour and not shatter on contact as dedicated AT round. Granted Russians threw so many tanks at the Germans they ended up having to use HE and solid steel projectiles at which point the T34 was better due to sloped armour...
Its not comparable when you use sheer numbers to deplete your enemies superior weapons so you can fight on parity.

German steel was cleaner and had less sulfur allowing the armour to provide better protection for a given thickness and for surface hardening to be higher. Also German guns lasted longer for the same reason, which granted was not a problem most Russian tanks would ever suffer, they simply wouldn't live long enough to ever wear their barrels out...
Russian steel got worse as the war went on, not better.
German steel up until the last months of the war got better including alloys with higher strength not just increased purity.

As for better tactics?
Of course
Russian inablity to mass produce vacuumm tubes for Radios giving Germans tactical advantage from start to finish in WW2 is a technological advantage and overwhelming one at that. Of course the Tank crews communicating with radios will be superior to the tank crews using FLAGS to communicate.

Yet you consider this comparable?

Apparently in your version of WW2 Russians had comparable technology with equal effectiveness vs the Germans but Russians were all dumb and stupid and simply couldn't learn though the entire war.

Putting words in my mouth claiming I said they aint armed?
My entire reference was to the INDUSTRIAL output of Soviet Russia to replace the losses their inferior forces suffered which is documented FACT not myth.
EG ~5 tanks and 10 artillery/anti tank guns per 1 German tank trade rate until 1944 and they actually got a decent tank mass produced.
As for producing "DUDS"... it worked for Russia...
They did not have comparable technology, shortage of semi and full automatic rifles until 1943, lack of tank comparability until 1944, and their airforce was utterly trash at the start of the war.

Sigh, no. They had decent tanks (T-34 and KV) and everything else. The USSR, just like France, had inferior tactics that could not counter the German Blitzkrieg at first. The Germans, having absorbed much of Europe, had also greater numbers. The Russians, however, refused to give up and with time, learned how to beat the Nazis, together with their Allies.

Your comparison with the Axis vs. Allies WW2 is ill-fitting anyway, and your superficial knowledge doesn't help it either.

A better analogue would be some small kingdom in south-eastern Asia trying to resist the encroaching British Empire. They may attempt negotiations or could try to craft as many swords and muskets as they can, but it's not going to help them. As soon as the Crown sends a proper expedition force armed with rifles and artillery, it's all over.

You should study the Insider database and read the previous arguments on this matter. After that, you can either come up with a new approach nobody had discovered yet, or realize how screwed Humanity really is. If you think that your idea is novel and interesting, present it in a new thread, and we can discuss it. Otherwise, you can write a fanfic where the tech gap is not that overwhelming or introduce some other kind of equalizer.

*Tactical solar system overview*

How "thick" is this jump-zone then?

[Werra]

As for human tech rate
Humans develop jump drive independently in 2086 and field ships on par with the Loroi in their first interstellar war and have developed blasters something the Loroi had to take from their enemy at this point.
Time from Jump drive to Terran current fleet: 74 years.
Loroi reverse engineering a jump drive to first interstellar war: 400 years.

Technological development doesn't have a set pace. Past speed in development says very little about the future. Mankind in Outsider could run into a bottleneck issue that it can't overcome without lengthy advancements in seemingly unrelated fields, which the Loroi had a Soia template for. Or any other issue might arise that ruins such a linear projection.
Then you also need to take into account that technology alone is not enough. Mankind would not just also need infrastructure, but the skills and experiences to wage interstellar war and people schooled in these. Without extensive contact to other species, this is hardly possible. The bellicose history of man amounts to fuck-all here, as all of that was earthbound warfare.

War has been going on 25 years, if nothing breaks the stalemate its possible it keeps going for another 25 with both sides being run down the entire time grinding their fleets away. Terran ships at this time also dont need to be on par with the Umiak/Loroi, neither do Terrans need to produce ships at a rate even half that of the Umiak/Loroi to end up with a over whelming fleet.

I feel 25 years is more then enough time when you take into account recovered tech from battlefields and traded for from both the Loroi and Umiak. Especially if you trade war material to the side that looks to be currently losing to keep the stalemate going...

Both sides have been expanding and ramping up their production during this war. Their borders are encroaching on human territory. It was only a matter of time until the sides would have stumbled upon human space on their own. That's the reason for the scout mission and why Outsider humanity is already on full war footing when the story is set. Once human ships start appearing on battlefields to pilfer wrecks or human traders show their faces in spaceports, time has run out. One of the sides will send a fleet, if only to deny the other a new client race. As the majority of humanity is on earth, they only need a few ships in orbit to effectively neutralize all further aggression or resistance from human forces.

[Krulle]

I feel 25 years is more then enough time when you take into account recovered tech from battlefields and traded for from both the Loroi and Umiak. Especially if you trade war material to the side that looks to be currently losing to keep the stalemate going...

Neutrality is not an option, for any known "Empire" known to the main combatants.

How will you be able to give the other side a boost while you're "in league" with the first side?

We're not on Earth where the terrain is predictable.
Blockade running in space is much harder to perform undetected.



Also, regarding the behemoths talks before:
Space stations near jump points do have advantages: the can scan an incoming bogey much earlier than the central system stations, who will have to wait for the light to arrive.
Yes, the signal from your station will not be earlier, but it will already include an analysis, and friend or foe detection signal.
Hence much more information tomreact on.