Designing Immortals Who Reproduce In. Scifi

[Bamax]

Biological immortality (can still be killed) is not explored as much that I have seen other topics in scifi. Probably because of our lens of mortality through which we see everything.

Writing a biological immortal scifi race that reproduces presents a unique set of circumstances that lends itself to questions I feel must be answered such as:

1. How do they handle reproduction? How often? How do they avoid overpopulation?

2. How does immortality effect government, commerce, and religion (if there is one or whatever takes it's place... such as nationalism or imperialism).

3. How do they handle death? What is the usual cause? How do they see or view death?

4. How do they view life.


Potential answers: Often, it is easy to take one look at humanity and right away see a whole BUNCH of really dark places that biological immortality could lead to

Yet the advantage of creating scifi aliens is they neither must be just like us or totally different than us. They can be both. They may lack the same degree of flaws in one quality that humans commonly do poorly, but do less well in other ways humans excel.

One interesting thing about immortality is that is kind of a killer for scifi creation in-verse. You don't need to dream about what you won't live to see so much as you need to get to work LOL so that your heart's desire becomes a reality.

Why? If one can stay alive they can make or build whatever they can dream of and make it a reality so long no one or nothing stops them.


Potental solutions to reproduction:

The dark, disturbing way (from a human POV) is culling.

A challenging way is never ending space colonization.

A solution that slows the inevitable need to deal with overpopulation is low birth rates (sterility is common, fertility is less, or pregancy takes so long that it effects population growth, or females are only fertile once per century because they have far fewer eggs that do not get replaced regularly)

Interestingly, a reduced birth or fertility rate makes immortals particularly vulnerble to to total extinction.

[Cthulhu]

Few authors attempt this or can represent it in a good way. The problem is manyfold:

1. Such a society of immortals needs to be remade from scratch, but it means not only designing a new one, but also keeping it interesting for the reader. It is difficult to be emotionally invested in an utterly alien culture, and philosophical sci-fi is a rare thing, since the publishers favor mass-produced space opera.
2. The race needs a new goal, or at least some sort of goal. Currently, humanity doesn't have one or can even see the path leading to it, thus inventing something is quite the challenge.
3. Even with a goal or goals, it does not necessarily mean that the majority will follow those. I've read a couple of sci-fi stories about immortal humanity, but it usually devolves into a hedonistic hive of scum and villainy or an apathetic stagnation. The authors are then forced to invent some sort of doom in order to stir them awake.
4. What is even the point of introducing immortality? This is quite a difficult topic to write about in the first place, but a wasteful one if the author cannot use it in a meaningful way. If you don't know ho to handle a gun, don't hang it above the fireplace.

Reproduction is even more difficult to write about. Normally, the generations change and a new point of view on old knowledge is introduced. But if the old generation never leaves, how can society advance? Especially if the young ones are few. Therefore, as I said, it would need a completely different philosophy and societal structure to work. Inventing all that is quite the challenge by itself, but multiplying it by the need to write an entire story? That's way too much work, and no publishers would risk funding it.

[Bamax]

Few authors attempt this or can represent it in a good way. The problem is manyfold:

1. Such a society of immortals needs to be remade from scratch, but it means not only designing a new one, but also keeping it interesting for the reader. It is difficult to be emotionally invested in an utterly alien culture, and philosophical sci-fi is a rare thing, since the publishers favor mass-produced space opera.
2. The race needs a new goal, or at least some sort of goal. Currently, humanity doesn't have one or can even see the path leading to it, thus inventing something is quite the challenge.
3. Even with a goal or goals, it does not necessarily mean that the majority will follow those. I've read a couple of sci-fi stories about immortal humanity, but it usually devolves into a hedonistic hive of scum and villainy or an apathetic stagnation. The authors are then forced to invent some sort of doom in order to stir them awake.
4. What is even the point of introducing immortality? This is quite a difficult topic to write about in the first place, but a wasteful one if the author cannot use it in a meaningful way. If you don't know ho to handle a gun, don't hang it above the fireplace.

Reproduction is even more difficult to write about. Normally, the generations change and a new point of view on old knowledge is introduced. But if the old generation never leaves, how can society advance? Especially if the young ones are few. Therefore, as I said, it would need a completely different philosophy and societal structure to work. Inventing all that is quite the challenge by itself, but multiplying it by the need to write an entire story? That's way too much work, and no publishers would risk funding it.

I do not think it's too hard. Not dying of old age just means people have more than enough time to becomee extremely wise.... or stupid. Depends on how an individual uses it.

Life must have have meaning, even if it is simply to never stop learning.... which is one goal that frankly will allow forever... so long the universe is big and keeps expanding.

[Werra]

Ask yourselves what would change about a story if all of the characters were immortal in this way. For Outsider, very, very little would change. Most stories that do not directly deal with old age could work just fine.

Similarly, the changes immortality would cause are mostly background ones. We can assume that wars happen more frequently and/or are more rough or that other factors keep the population low. For example, limited space, the food capacity of the land or that people would not feel their desire for children to be so pressing. None of that affects a story about jealousy, high school drama or pew-pew-babes-in-space.

It wouldn't even alienate the readers, as these types of species can still experience the full range of human emotions. There would be no reason this species would be alien to us.

And what is this talk about species wide goals about? Real life humans have so far managed without those.

[Bamax]

Ask yourselves what would change about a story if all of the characters were immortal in this way. For Outsider, very, very little would change. Most stories that do not directly deal with old age could work just fine.

Similarly, the changes immortality would cause are mostly background ones. We can assume that wars happen more frequently and/or are more rough or that other factors keep the population low. For example, limited space, the food capacity of the land or that people would not feel their desire for children to be so pressing. None of that affects a story about jealousy, high school drama or pew-pew-babes-in-space.

It wouldn't even alienate the readers, as these types of species can still experience the full range of human emotions. There would be no reason this species would be alien to us.

And what is this talk about species wide goals about? Real life humans have so far managed without those.

The one thing immortality would upend without a low birthrate is captilism economies.

Buy or sell?

Stuff that lasts will be popular, since why buy something that wears out fast if you are going to outlive it?

Maintenance becomes a big deal.

My guess? Inflation goes through the roof and maintenence is more affotdable than buying. Perhaps even building your own is more affordable.


Causes of Inflation
Demand-pull inflation – aggregate demand growing faster than aggregate supply (growth too rapid)
Cost-push inflation – For example, higher oil prices feeding through into higher costs.
Devaluation – increasing cost of imported goods, and also the boost to domestic demand.


Mortal alien races immortals meet will be viewed as less important than immortals and expendable, since they are gonna die anyway... nothing they can do about it... or should they?

That os the auestion. Should they try to spread the gift of immortality to mortals or limit it? Obviously there would be immortals on both sides of such a divisive issue... even if they have not developed a true transfer immortality for mortals yet... the attempt itself would cause conflict.

Species wide goals only apply to species that are wholly unified.

Virtually never happens in scifi apart from hive mind abominations like the borg since people find utopias hard to write and evil a lot easier and less boring too.

[Cthulhu]

I do not think it's too hard. Not dying of old age just means people have more than enough time to becomee extremely wise.... or stupid. Depends on how an individual uses it.

Life must have have meaning, even if it is simply to never stop learning.... which is one goal that frankly will allow forever... so long the universe is big and keeps expanding.

This would need humans that never forget anything they have learned. But on the other hand, what would be the point of a new generation? The gap between them will be immense and ever-growing.

Ask yourselves what would change about a story if all of the characters were immortal in this way. For Outsider, very, very little would change. Most stories that do not directly deal with old age could work just fine.

Similarly, the changes immortality would cause are mostly background ones. We can assume that wars happen more frequently and/or are more rough or that other factors keep the population low. For example, limited space, the food capacity of the land or that people would not feel their desire for children to be so pressing. None of that affects a story about jealousy, high school drama or pew-pew-babes-in-space.

It wouldn't even alienate the readers, as these types of species can still experience the full range of human emotions. There would be no reason this species would be alien to us.

And what is this talk about species wide goals about? Real life humans have so far managed without those.

That's what I meant by the gun. Using such an impactful topic as a mere flavor, without having the skill or endurance to include it into the story properly? What's the point? Therefore, most authors don't even touch it.

The changes of Immortality would be immense, because our entire psychology, society and even philosophy is based on the inevitability of death. Simply removing the generational change out of the equation will require a completely different approach to innovation, for example.

Then, an immortal being would also need some sort of goal in order to keep moving forward. Living day in, day out for millennia is perhaps the greatest curse, a man-made Limbo.

[inxsi]

Just some random thoughts:

You would also have to assume no member of the species devotes themselves to trying to fix/circumvent the cause of the low birth rates - which could be hard to justify since (presumably) they could just clone themselves.

Instead of culling, you could have individuals commit suicide who grow weary of life or decide it is their time to do so. Or, more darkly, when they tire of the daily grind to support themselves (assuming the economy is not post-scarcity or there is no universal support for individuals). Alternately, maybe they just will never die of old age, but will suffer other maladies and have not advanced their medical knowledge enough to deal with it - they may not die of old age but cancer or heart attack could eventually claim them. Or maybe they have an expiration date hard-coded so that it would appear to be a natural death?

If you wanted to get into psychic abilities, perhaps fertility is directly tied into how many members of the species are alive - if there are too many, the females never ovulate.

Or you could go a cultural route, with the government dictating who is able to give birth and when. One example would be that the whole species is limited to a space station that only supports so many individuals, so there is a strong cultural component of controlling births. This would be a bigger issue with a mostly immortal race, but maybe they are culturally against automation so they much engage in dangerous activities to gather the resources their society needs. Look at mining or industrial deaths for ideas on how quickly they could need new births to replace those who died from accidents.

[Werra]

@Bamax
Why do you buy things that you don't plan to pass down to your kids? A species that doesn't age can still consume just as well as a species like ours.

Immortality would have two very powerful benefits for the economy. One, everybody would remain in their most productive years indefinitely. Two, a third of the consumers wouldn't be too old to produce anymore.
Sure, there might be drawbacks as well, but such massive benefits are hard to overcome. It would very likely be a net positive.

This would need humans that never forget anything they have learned. But on the other hand, what would be the point of a new generation? The gap between them will be immense and ever-growing.

Superlative claims are often wrong. A longer (healthy) lifespan and more experience is a distinct advantage for living humans, despite us constantly forgetting things. That would still be true if we were immortal.

And lots of stuff gets included in stories that would require or effect fundamental changes. Nobody forces an author to account for every possibility when they're writing fiction. Suspension of disbelieve is a courtesy given that all fiction depends on. Well, unless you're writing in the hebrew EU. Then it's enforcement of believe.

[Bamax]

I do find deciding whether to provide immortality or not a fascinating concept.... especially if you were born with it.

For example, I dare say some species should NOT be immortal with the ability to reproduce immortals.

Want an example? Beasts and insects. Any one of them.

Allow them immortality and they will grow out of control easily, granted in nature there are checks and balances.... but they are designed to check mortals.... not immortals.

Being immortal requires a certain level of responsibility to be adopted. Without it, it is better for all involved to just stay mortal.

Some intelligent races may be overall denied... but promising individuals among them may be granted the gift.

[Bamax]

@Bamax
Why do you buy things that you don't plan to pass down to your kids? A species that doesn't age can still consume just as well as a species like ours.

Immortality would have two very powerful benefits for the economy. One, everybody would remain in their most productive years indefinitely. Two, a third of the consumers wouldn't be too old to produce anymore.
Sure, there might be drawbacks as well, but such massive benefits are hard to overcome. It would very likely be a net positive.

This would need humans that never forget anything they have learned. But on the other hand, what would be the point of a new generation? The gap between them will be immense and ever-growing.

Superlative claims are often wrong. A longer (healthy) lifespan and more experience is a distinct advantage for living humans, despite us constantly forgetting things. That would still be true if we were immortal.

And lots of stuff gets included in stories that would require or effect fundamental changes. Nobody forces an author to account for every possibility when they're writing fiction. Suspension of disbelieve is a courtesy given that all fiction depends on. Well, unless you're writing in the hebrew EU. Then it's enforcement of believe.

Supply and demand would be a problem immortals would face sooner or later. Homeworld is only so big.

At some point you either start population enforcement or start shipping off the next generation to the stars.y

[Werra]

Supply and demand would be a problem immortals would face sooner or later. Homeworld is only so big.

At some point you either start population enforcement or start shipping off the next generation to the stars.y

That problem is faced by all species that grow their numbers.

[Bamax]

Supply and demand would be a problem immortals would face sooner or later. Homeworld is only so big.

At some point you either start population enforcement or start shipping off the next generation to the stars.y

That problem is faced by all species that grow their numbers.

True....but the problem is a very real one for immortals who are against culling to solve innocent population members to solve population issues.

[Arioch]

The first question is how they became immortal (or specifically "unaging") in the first place. Extreme longevity is unlikely to evolve naturally, except perhaps as an adaptation to extremely low birth rates (rather than the other way around). So the challenge there is to imagine a reason why a specifies would naturally develop extremely low birthrates. (I imagine strange creatures living in interstellar space, who can only reproduce every few thousand years when they visit a star system.)

If the longevity is artificially developed, then it's just a question of how the society chooses to deal with it. Reproduction would have to be artificially limited, by rule and/or by sterilization.

I suppose that if a species became artificially unaging, and their reproduction was so rare that it was handled artificially, then that species over time might lose the natural ability to reproduce.

[Bamax]

The first question is how they became immortal (or specifically "unaging") in the first place. Extreme longevity is unlikely to evolve naturally, except perhaps as an adaptation to extremely low birth rates (rather than the other way around). So the challenge there is to imagine a reason why a specifies would naturally develop extremely low birthrates. (I imagine strange creatures living in interstellar space, who can only reproduce every few thousand years when they visit a star system.)

If the longevity is artificially developed, then it's just a question of how the society chooses to deal with it. Reproduction would have to be artificially limited, by rule and/or by sterilization.

I suppose that if a species became artificially unaging, and their reproduction was so rare that it was handled artificially, then that species over time might lose the natural ability to reproduce.

Really I like the concept ofbeing born into immortality, not knowing the reason why, and only having the theories of others around to guess why along with some definite clues lying around.

Kind of like our mortality when you think about it.

The reader need not be all knowing to enjoy a story... and neither dare I say does even the author LOL.

I have seen more than one storyteller or writer admit even they did not know how a story was to end, or at least some details they did not know.

[Mk_C]

then that species over time might lose the natural ability to reproduce.

How though? Dudz r immortal, they don't lose or gain biological qualities - unless it's a form of physiological decoherence happening over time, i.e. ageing. Which would mean that they totally do age, and are not really immortal. Feels more like a thematic element (admittedly quite fitting in terms of pathos), rather than a logical consequence.

[Arioch]

then that species over time might lose the natural ability to reproduce.

How though? Dudz r immortal, they don't lose or gain biological qualities - unless it's a form of physiological decoherence happening over time, i.e. ageing. Which would mean that they totally do age, and are not really immortal. Feels more like a thematic element (admittedly quite fitting in terms of pathos), rather than a logical consequence.

Depends on how artificial reproduction is handled; whether the genetic material used is fixed/archival or whether it is sampled from the person(s) chosen for reproduction, and whether they make clones or use artificial sexual reproduction to vary the offspring. In the case of clones produced from archival genetic material, the species will never change, but in all other cases, change will slowly happen (though perhaps over very long timescales).

Even "unaging" organisms eventually die due to violence or disease, unless we're talking about magic or magic-like levels of technology.

[Werra]

The first question is how they became immortal (or specifically "unaging") in the first place. Extreme longevity is unlikely to evolve naturally, except perhaps as an adaptation to extremely low birth rates (rather than the other way around). So the challenge there is to imagine a reason why a specifies would naturally develop extremely low birthrates. (I imagine strange creatures living in interstellar space, who can only reproduce every few thousand years when they visit a star system.)

On earth programmed cell death had to evolve. Bacteria that split themselves to reproduce are to this day functionally eternally young. Their birthrates lightning quick, too.
There must be some advantage to programmed cell death in a multicellular organism. If that advantage doesn't apply or is simply not followed up on, an ecosystem might arise that doesn't have deterioration due to age. Some multicellular organisms on earth do seem to possess eternal youth. So it is evidently possible.

Giving humans eternal youth requires only two things. That our bodies keep on trucking as if we were in our early 20s and that our bodies can heal the wear and tear of life. We don't have that because evolution gives zero fucks about the individual and frontloading fertility is apparently more efficient for mammals species.

If the longevity is artificially developed, then it's just a question of how the society chooses to deal with it. Reproduction would have to be artificially limited, by rule and/or by sterilization.

I suppose that if a species became artificially unaging, and their reproduction was so rare that it was handled artificially, then that species over time might lose the natural ability to reproduce.

Why deal with it consciously? Human history is full of rapid growth and then correction events with the advent of new technologies.

How though? Dudz r immortal, they don't lose or gain biological qualities - unless it's a form of physiological decoherence happening over time, i.e. ageing. Which would mean that they totally do age, and are not really immortal. Feels more like a thematic element (admittedly quite fitting in terms of pathos), rather than a logical consequence.

Even if the individuals do not age, they can still die due to other causes. Evolution will still happen. A heavy dependance on technology in reproduction runs the risk of turning into a real dependency over time.
Plus a species this deep into gene modification might offer its immortal members all kinds of genetic treatments. (Which would mean they could restore natural fertility)

[Arent]

Obviously, they would expand/supercede others until all space is taken & then implement birth control.

[Bamax]

Obviously, they would expand/supercede others until all space is taken & then implement birth control.

Or until they meet their versiom of the Umiak and realize that may be a bad idea...

[Bamax]

I do not think it's too hard. Not dying of old age just means people have more than enough time to becomee extremely wise.... or stupid. Depends on how an individual uses it.

Life must have have meaning, even if it is simply to never stop learning.... which is one goal that frankly will allow forever... so long the universe is big and keeps expanding.

This would need humans that never forget anything they have learned. But on the other hand, what would be the point of a new generation? The gap between them will be immense and ever-growing.

Do all have kids because they want kids?

How many are born as 'accidents'?

Is not sex in of itself pleasurable and can possibly be an act of love?