A question of ruthlessness... spoiler...ish?

[Werra]

That "youth bulge" theory is interesting at first glance, but the wikipedia-level of explanation is a terrible oversimplification that will lead to errors in judgement. Its analysis depends on additional factors like the level of education, religion, economic situation, wealth distribution, foreign interference and a dozen more.

I gave you the title of a critically aclaimed book that has youth bulges and their consequences as its central topic. Before you critique something for not being in depth enough, dive into the matter first and you most often see that your concerns have been adressed. Or, like in this case, are core parts of the problem of youth bulges.

The Loroi are not more ruthless than we are.

Maybe humans can be as ruthless as Loroi when forced to by hostile threats, but the Loroi certainly have a more ruthless baseline. Consider what type of human societies had large scale breeding programs, state enforced mate selection and breeding restrictions. That type of stuff is a basic requirement for the Loroi even having a society.

The point is how likely are the Loroi to commit a third xenocide? Less likely than the Humans, actually, since the Loroi are not the absolute power. The Union was nearly shattered after the Tithric debacle, and I doubt that the other members would support the Loroi for something that was not even provoked.

Considering their stated war goals, I'd say chances for a third genocide are quite good. Weren't the other member species not fine with what happened to the Tithric? How was it even a debacle?

[Cthulhu]

I gave you the title of a critically aclaimed book that has youth bulges and their consequences as its central topic. Before you critique something for not being in depth enough, dive into the matter first and you most often see that your concerns have been adressed. Or, like in this case, are core parts of the problem of youth bulges.

I know this theory and I even used this method. It is an interesting tool, but the in-depth analysis requires a lot of additional information. What I was trying to say is that such a bulge is not necessary the cause for destabilization.

SpoilerShow

The Arab Spring, for example, was caused by a multitude of factors (like foreign interference and drought) and it used this bulge as fuel. Otherwise, it may not have ignited to such a degree.

Maybe humans can be as ruthless as Loroi when forced to by hostile threats, but the Loroi certainly have a more ruthless baseline. Consider what type of human societies had large scale breeding programs, state enforced mate selection and breeding restrictions. That type of stuff is a basic requirement for the Loroi even having a society.

Yet the Loroi never industrialized genocide, for example. The breeding restrictions are due to the weird male/female ratio, which is certainly artificial. It is a crude system meant to replace the one that the Soia used.

Considering their stated war goals, I'd say chances for a third genocide are quite good. Weren't the other member species not fine with what happened to the Tithric? How was it even a debacle?

The InsiderShow

Fourth Emperor Greywind also announced a new anti-neutrality doctrine, aimed directly at the neighboring Tithric, who at best were unable to prevent Umiak sorties through their neutral territory, and at worst may have been actively assisting them. Greywind sent Admiral Sunfall, hero of the Golim-Tinza battles, to force the Tithric to choose sides. While the Tithric government delayed, Sunfall began conducting strikes into Tithric territory to interdict Umiak forces, but also to destroy depots that Sunfall claimed were being used to refuel Umiak raiders. Tithric public outrage over these raids resulted in the rise of a pro-Umiak government to power, and the Tithric formally sided with the Umiak in mid-2141. In a battle that lasted most of that year, Sunfall shattered the combined Umiak and Tithric forces and (with Imperial consent) laid waste to the Tithric planets, rendering them unusable to the Umiak, and annihilating the vast majority of the Tithric population. With the pressure on Laget and Nelomani relieved, the Loroi celebrated this event as a critical victory, but the genocide came as a shock to the other races, including many Loroi allies. The Umiak shortly thereafter declared a similar doctrine refusing to recognize the rights of neutrality, and both sides would use this policy in the coming years as pretext for action against and annexation of the remaining non-aligned nations.

This was the second xenocide for the Loroi and while the reaction was less severe this time due to the ongoing war, it was still there. But the Tithric were "just" some aliens, meanwhile the Humans are the template species. Even some Loroi would balk at the thought of massacring their "cousins", and the Barsam will probably leave the Union due to this sacrilege.

[Werra]

What I was trying to say is that such a bulge is not necessary the cause for destabilization.

Which is not what you have said at first and is an irrelevant point anyway. Getting drunk is not required for crashing a car either. Or are you trying to tell us that we can not say whether the principle of youth bulges applies to the Loroi because we do not know their income distribution? That's a ridiculous standard.

Yet the Loroi never industrialized genocide, for example. The breeding restrictions are due to the weird male/female ratio, which is certainly artificial. It is a crude system meant to replace the one that the Soia used.

1. How do you know? 2. What makes the Loroi system crude in comparison to the Soia system? 3. How do you know what the Soia system was like? These are rhetorical questions.

Shock = the Union nearly broke

Come on.

[Cthulhu]

Which is not what you have said at first and is an irrelevant point anyway. Getting drunk is not required for crashing a car either. Or are you trying to tell us that we can not say whether the principle of youth bulges applies to the Loroi because we do not know their income distribution? That's a ridiculous standard.

I am merely saying that the wikipedia description is too much of an oversimplification, the method itself is a viable tool.

1. How do you know? 2. What makes the Loroi system crude in comparison to the Soia system? 3. How do you know what the Soia system was like? These are rhetorical questions.

Then I'm not going to answer them.

Come on.

There was a powerful outcry at the (somewhat) limited Mannadi xenocide, the nearly complete destruction of the Tithric should have sparked even more controversy. The only thing that prevented this was the wartime necessity, but if the Loroi try to attempt a third one without good reason, it will certainly lead to internal strife that they simply cannot afford.

[Werra]

@Cthulhu
I see, the effects of a youth bulge on the Loroi must be shown with in depth statistics. But the reaction to genocide can be concluded from a single half sentence.

Your double standards are appalling.

[Krulle]

@Cthulhu
I see, the effects of a youth bulge on the Loroi must be shown with in depth statistics. But the reaction to genocide can be concluded from a single half sentence.

Your double standards are appalling.

Race: Mannadi

Affiliation: Subjugated Population (Quarantined)
Biology: Bipedal with a stooped posture, having clawed hands and feet, bald ghost-white pocked flesh, large glassy black eyes, a spiky mane and a wide mouth rimmed with sharp teeth.
Homeworld: Ezor
Government Type: various
Notes: In their day, the Mannadi were bold explorers and adventurers who had built a small interstellar sphere of influence. The Mannadi respected and feared the growing power of the Loroi Empire enough not to attack them directly, and even prompted a brief alliance between the two powers. Unfortunately, the Mannadi could never be content as ordinary members of the family of nations, and their ambition led them into continuing acts of aggression against the Neridi and Pipolsid that eventually drew them into direct conflict with the Loroi. Though never a true match for the Loroi Empire and her allies, the Mannadi nation fought tenaciously and effectively through a series of three bloody and bitter wars with the Loroi, in which the Mannadi made effective use of the remote location of their territory and the severe handicap placed on Loroi forces operating so far from friendly resupply. The Mannadi also had a degree of resistance to Loroi telepathy, which represented a further challenge to the Loroi. By the end of the third war the Loroi eventually occupied the Mannadi worlds, but there was little left of Mannadi infrastructure, and almost nothing left of Loroi patience. Mannadi telepathic resistance made Loroi occupation less effective than they were accustomed to, and when Mannadi insurgents bitterly fought the occupation, the Loroi started simply wiping them out. International outrage at these actions threatened to shatter the Loroi Alliance; only the formation of the Loroi Union ended the threat of a galaxy-wide war and spared the Mannadi from extinction. The Mannadi are not spoken of in Loroi society, and they are rarely seen outside their designated territory, which is quarantined. Mannadi space is the main gateway to the territory of the Historians, but few travel this path.

Date (CE) Date (SYU)
1415 803 Mannadi aggression against Neridi and Pipolsid.
1427-1441 820-840 First Mannadi War. Little is resolved because of spacetime instability.
1436-1451 833-854 Hyperspace instability caused by gravitational tides from Well of Souls stellar remnant makes jump drive unreliable.
1495-1507 917-934 Second Mannadi War. Loroi annex substantial territory; Mannadi sue for peace.
1548-1552 992-998 Third Mannadi War. Started by Loroi; Arekka join Mannadi side in 1550, but Loroi conquer Mannadi territory in 1552, and organized Mannadi resistance ends. The Arekka fight on alone, attempting to support Mannadi insurgents.
1552-1557 998-1005 Mannadi Occupation: the Mannadi surrender unconditionally to the Loroi in 1552, but local insurgents continue to fight bitterly against increasingly restrictive occupation policies by the Loroi. Arekka systems are also falling under Loroi occupation.
1555 1002 Enok incident: a major terrorist attack on Loroi orbiting facilities in occupied Mannadi territory is answered with reprisal strikes against Mannadi civilian populations by the Loroi military. The Interspecies Convention calls for war crimes trials, but Emperor Loremark threatens war against any nation that attempts to interfere with Loroi sovereignty.
1557 1005 Interspecies Convention petitions for formation of Loroi Union; Loremark agrees. Neridi, Pipolsid, Barsam join as full members. Nissek decline to join, and Arekka also decline but tacitly agree to end hostilities with the Loroi.

Over 140 (Earth) years, the Mannadi have been aggressive against Loroi and their allies.
Continuously.
I wonder, how long Earth politicians would've taken it.
(Just see how Earth terrorists hide between civilian populations, and how state forces then react. Gaza is an example - make the civilian population suffer until they stop supporting the terrorists - alas this often leads to a lack of perspective, which actually sends those without perspective into the arms of the terrorists)

Race: Tithric

Affiliation: Dependent Ally
Biology: 1.2m long sluglike body with rows of knobby ventral pseudo-appendages to improve mobility. Three of the upper pairs of appendages have developed into manipulators, and the four sensory stalks on the head can also be used as rough manipulators, particularly for food.
Notes: Situated in a precarious location on the coreward end of the Steppes front, the Tithric desired to remain neutral in the war, but did not have the political unity to make neutrality work. Local systems seeking to profit from the overtures offered by both sides made independent deals, in some cases even permitting Umiak forces to pass through their territory to raid Loroi systems. The Loroi pressed the Tithric to put a stop to this, but the central government was too weak and corrupt to control its own systems, leaving the Loroi little option but to conduct interdiction raids into Tithric space. These attacks finally unified the Tithric politically and prompted the formation of a stronger central government (and a formal alliance with the Umiak), but it was too late: the Loroi under Admiral Sunfall razed the entire region. Though destroyed as a functioning nation, the Tithric are not extinct. Some refugees escaped into Umiak territory, and survivors continue to eke out an existence on the devastated Tithric worlds, mostly cut off from the interstellar community.

The Tithric have allied with the Umiak, and therefore are a target under any war rules.
Also: allowing one side through your space, but the other not?
Anyone will argue here, that de-facto the Tithric have already been sided with the Umiak while the Loroi did the interdiction raids.

The lack of political union is an issue Humanity might have as well. The Humanity worlds/colonies might be more careful though, there being only one space navy, and the colonies are not self-sufficient yet, and need Earth's supplies.

Besides the point, from this description, I would argue there was no "genocide" against the Tithric. Just a total destruction of the Nation and infrastructure (with the resulting loss of life). The Tithric have not been targeted to be destroyed, but because this was a necessity in a war of survival. Actions against an enemy.

I would argue, that both genocides are the direct result of the "local governments" not being able to control the actions of splinter groups.
When up against military, at a certain time they WILL shoot back. And the difference in arms in that situation will mean hefty unproportional losses on one side.
Yes, I'd argue, that Humans would take the same decisions.

And the destruction of the civilisations was partly due to the resulting total collapse of infrastructure under space-age weapon fire.
The Loroi did stop shooting once the danger was over once and for all.

It was a war crime, and not industrial genocide.
Which we Humans have done, as a German I am born with a share of responsibility to warn everyone of what we Humans can do.
So that history may not repeat itself.

And the Tithric and Mannadi have both done militaristic actions against the Loroi. Multiple and several times. Continuously.
Both in a state of war with the Loroi. The Tithric knowing that the Loroi were in a total war of survival.
The Germans killed industrially parts of their own population, without having been provoked in any way by GERMAN citizens.
People who fought for Germany in WW1, who spoke German, and were more integrated into the German society than modern "I live in the Interwebs" German kids are.

We Humans are much more ruthless than Loroi. This is my conclusion, after considering the arguments I brought forward.

(And if anyone wishes to argue that we Humans are not that bad, also because "the Holocaust never happened", then I have to say, creating such a formidable and elaborate lie proves that whoever has an agenda that requires the creation of such a lie with so much evidence proves that we Humans are extremely ruthless.)

[Cthulhu]

Your double standards are appalling.

I'm obviously not using the same standards regarding the real world and a work of fiction. In reality, we can merely attempt to glimpse the truth by processing an immense amount of information. In fiction, we can just ask the author.

The Tithric have allied with the Umiak, and therefore are a target under any war rules.
Also: allowing one side through your space, but the other not?
Anyone will argue here, that de-facto the Tithric have already been sided with the Umiak while the Loroi did the interdiction raids.

The lack of political union is an issue Humanity might have as well. The Humanity worlds/colonies might be more careful though, there being only one space navy, and the colonies are not self-sufficient yet, and need Earth's supplies.

Besides the point, from this description, I would argue there was no "genocide" against the Tithric. Just a total destruction of the Nation and infrastructure (with the resulting loss of life). The Tithric have not been targeted to be destroyed, but because this was a necessity in a war of survival. Actions against an enemy.

I would argue, that both genocides are the direct result of the "local governments" not being able to control the actions of splinter groups.
When up against military, at a certain time they WILL shoot back. And the difference in arms in that situation will mean hefty unproportional losses on one side.
Yes, I'd argue, that Humans would take the same decisions.

And the destruction of the civilisations was partly due to the resulting total collapse of infrastructure under space-age weapon fire.
The Loroi did stop shooting once the danger was over once and for all.

It was a war crime, and not industrial genocide.
Which we Humans have done, as a German I am born with a share of responsibility to warn everyone of what we Humans can do.
So that history may not repeat itself.

And the Tithric and Mannadi have both done militaristic actions against the Loroi. Multiple and several times. Continuously.
Both in a state of war with the Loroi. The Tithric knowing that the Loroi were in a total war of survival.
The Germans killed industrially parts of their own population, without having been provoked in any way by GERMAN citizens.
People who fought for Germany in WW1, who spoke German, and were more integrated into the German society than modern "I live in the Interwebs" German kids are.

We Humans are much more ruthless than Loroi. This is my conclusion, after considering the arguments I brought forward.

(And if anyone wishes to argue that we Humans are not that bad, also because "the Holocaust never happened", then I have to say, creating such a formidable and elaborate lie proves that whoever has an agenda that requires the creation of such a lie with so much evidence proves that we Humans are extremely ruthless.)

The problem is that the war forced all three sides into this tragedy:
1. The Loroi were stretched too thin to defend against the Umiak raids and had no resources left for a ground campaign or the subsequent occupation. Simply destroying the orbital infrastructure wouldn't be enough, they needed to prevent its restoration for the foreseeable future. Therefore, what is essentially xenocide was their only option, not that it makes it any better.
2. The Tithric government was not unified or strong enough to enforce a global policy of either neutrality or of choosing a side. The various local governors provided the Umiak with supplies, fuel and passage rights to a varying degree. This, as Arioch pointed it out before, was essentially racial suicide.
3. The Hierarchy saw an opportunity and used it, as the war effort demanded for it. They are far less concerned with morality, or at least, our sense of it. The fate of the Tithric, no matter how foreseeable, did not bother them in the slightest. On the contrary, they now have additional munition for their propaganda about the "murdering witches".

The Loroi, even if they win, will be seen as a genocidal power by the other races. Especially since a third one, namely against the Umiak, is inevitable.

[Werra]

Over 140 (Earth) years, the Mannadi have been aggressive against Loroi and their allies.
Continuously.
I wonder, how long Earth politicians would've taken it.
(Just see how Earth terrorists hide between civilian populations, and how state forces then react. Gaza is an example - make the civilian population suffer until they stop supporting the terrorists - alas this often leads to a lack of perspective, which actually sends those without perspective into the arms of the terrorists)

140 years is not a terrible long timespan. It took Rome 120 years to annihilate Carthage. The Reconquista lasted eight centuries. A lot of those 140 years were spent in peace or in a cold war even.
The Loroi held Mannadi territory from 1507 until 1555 before their patience came to an end. That's 48 years of contact. Before that we can assume that there was not any large scale contact, since both species were separated by space and stuff. Also, unlike the Israelis, the Loroi attempted to whipe out their insurgents in earnest. They did not just aim to break Mannadi resistance, they started removing them from their own worlds. That means the Loroi didn't give the Mannadi any out, as there was nowhere to run to and their conquerors were no longer interested in parlay. The targeted destruction of an entire people, without enslaving them, is a super rare occurance in our own species history.
Loroi on Deinar can have their children put to death by law. Euthanasia for violent telekinetics is a necessity to the Loroi. What can the value of an individual life be to such a society?

@Cthulhu

I'm obviously not using the same standards regarding the real world and a work of fiction.

Yet you still brought those standards up discussing a work of fiction.

In reality, we can merely attempt to glimpse the truth by processing an immense amount of information.

Or we can limit the amount of information to process to what we need to come to a serviceable working conclusion and thus navigate the world. Like each and every one of us does daily in decision making.

[dragoongfa]

People seem to forget that the Loroi are aliens and although they are not as alien as others their culture and ways of thinking are distinctly alien to ours by default.

One thing that must be considered is the way that Loroi society functioned and run at the time of the Mannadi affair and subsequent genocide. It was before the Union and as such the Loroi had no hands on experience with a free alien population; at the time only the Loroi civilians were free and those were held under strict societal rules of conduct and behavior. The Delrias were the only other alien race under rule by the Loroi of the time and they were subjugated after their war with the Loroi; they were and still are a warlike race with high levels of interpersonal conflict but the Loroi didn't see any reason to go to genocidal lengths with them.Quite the contrary, they have grown to be a dependable population that the Loroi respect and it should only be a matter of time before they are elevated to full Union membership after the war is over.

Why is that? Because the Delrias quickly acted like Loroi civilians after their defeat. They accepted their loss and understood that they were 'beneath' the Loroi in martial prowess and as such they should respect them and defer to them. As such the Loroi saw fit to let them do their own thing socially and culturally as long as they knew their place. The result is that even after close to a millenia of subjugation the Delrias is a distinct society and cultural group that are able to develop scientifically and socially all on their own. The Loroi saw no reason to go to any lengths greater than violently showing to any uppity Delrias leader who thought otherwise that they are the better warriors by default.

The distinct mirroring with the Loroi civilian underclass is obvious. As long as they behave and act according to their status they are allowed to do as they wish.

The Mannadi however, they didn't do that. They kept resisting after being defeated, it can be argued that it was a minority that would have been easily rooted out in the same way that the equivalent minority of the warlike Delrias was rooted out if the Mannadi weren't resistant to Loroi telepathy. However the Mannadi are resistant to Loroi telepathy and a number of them were able to land painful blows against the Loroi occupation forces.

This is where we come back to the Loroi civilian underclass. Throughout their history when the Loroi warred on each other the losing side saw their warrior class culled and their civilian and males classes absorbed by the victors. The Loroi warriors killed the other side's warriors, they didn't absorb them or relegate them down to the civilian underclass because they knew that the warriors would not be able to accept their defeat. Their whole way of life revolved around their status as warriors, to lose that would be unacceptable, it stands to reason that they would do anything and everything to return to their rightful place in society and the best way to do that would be to fight over it to the bitter end.

Now back to the Mannadi, their government surrendered and their military stood down. But armed resistance remained and it was significant enough to hurt the Loroi. The Loroi way of thinking would certainly parallel the Mannadi behavior to their own and by lacking any significant telepathic inputs the Loroi would inevitably come to the conclusion that the Mannadi governmental and warrior classes lied to them and held no desire of being relegated down to the civilian level, furthermore said Mannadi civilian class was obviously sympathetic to the struggle of the insurgents against the occupiers.

The Loroi way of thinking then defaulted to treating the Mannadi as they would treat defeated Loroi warriors, they understood that the only way to pacify them is to kill them because they understood that a Loroi warrior would never accept defeat; thus the only solution was to treat every Mannadi as a warrior by default unless proven otherwise and the fact of the Mannadi resistance to telepathy ensured that said proof would be a tall order to get.

EDIT:

TL;DR Due to the Loroi way of thinking and historical/societal background they defaulted on genocide because that's the only way to ensure that the Loroi warrior castes stop fighting and be demoted to civilians.

[Krulle]

Over 140 (Earth) years, the Mannadi have been aggressive against Loroi and their allies.
Continuously.
I wonder, how long Earth politicians would've taken it.
(Just see how Earth terrorists hide between civilian populations, and how state forces then react. Gaza is an example - make the civilian population suffer until they stop supporting the terrorists - alas this often leads to a lack of perspective, which actually sends those without perspective into the arms of the terrorists)

140 years is not a terrible long timespan. It took Rome 120 years to annihilate Carthage. The Reconquista lasted eight centuries. A lot of those 140 years were spent in peace or in a cold war even.

And how often did Carthago, despite having been shown to be unable to conquer Rome, rise and attack Rome's supremacy?
(spoiler: once. They lost the first Punic war, and rose up, which led to the Second Punic war (Hannibal crossing the alps...)

Carthago delenda est. only became a topic in Rome's internal politics, as Carthago was NO danger at that the time for the Roman empire, and some politicians wanted to focus on external politics, instead of internal politics. Carthago was an easy target, as after the second Punic war, Carthago was forbidden from waging war without Rome's express permission, and was furthermore by the same treaty limited in the size of their army, had no more colonies, and had to pay large tributes to Rome.
The treat got abused by Cartahgo's neighbours who attack Carthago again and again, while Carthago was forbidden to defend itself.
When Carthago did, without Rome's permission, (and actually lost those defensive wars), elements in Rome saw the chance, to shout "outcry!", while the Carthagians were only defending themselves from another threat, that was not Rome.
Carthago was not doing sabotaging acts against Rome.
There was no fighting against Rome by Carthago.
There was no uprising against Rome by Carthago.
I find Rome's actions closer to unprovoked genocide than the Loroi actions against the Mannadi.


And the Reconquista?
While the muslim religion got forbidden, this has always been a lot about power games, and less about "killing the infidels".
Most wars led to the forced removal of the governing elite.
The "plebetarians" were often allowed to stay, even though they had to formally accept the new religion/new tax schemes/new king,/...
Those wars were never about throwing the whole population out, it was about gaining power themselves, and officially converting the muslims to Christianity again.

This aside:
Furthermore, I find Dragoongfa's analysis and reasoning also very convincing. Thank you, Dragoongfa.
Your reasoning and deductions remind me of the Ryall and Michael McCollum's Antares Wars trilogy.

[Jagged]

But a thought that's been nagging at me... just how ruthless do you think the loroi are? Both as individuals and as a collective of people(s).

An interesting discussion and reading between the lines it seems to me the Loroi are given a lot of leeway/forgiveness in this thread.
Personally I always read them as utterly ruthless as thats how they are presented on Page 1. It is of course understandable as they are fighting for their survival. We would do no less.

The INSIDER sections people have copied are also very interesting as I wonder if they are reliable narrators? The history of the Mannadi makes me think Humanity should be vary wary about how the Loroi might treat a young race with resistence to Loroi telepathy.

[Eluvatar]

But a thought that's been nagging at me... just how ruthless do you think the loroi are? Both as individuals and as a collective of people(s).

An interesting discussion and reading between the lines it seems to me the Loroi are given a lot of leeway/forgiveness in this thread.
Personally I always read them as utterly ruthless as thats how they are presented on Page 1. It is of course understandable as they are fighting for their survival. We would do no less.

The INSIDER sections people have copied are also very interesting as I wonder if they are reliable narrators? The history of the Mannadi makes me think Humanity should be vary wary about how the Loroi might treat a young race with resistence to Loroi telepathy.

That is a very good point. Thank you for making it, it significantly adjusts my thinking about the Loroi.

I've been, honestly, more suspicious of the Historian AI than of Beryl and Fireblade, and equally suspicious as Tempo.

At the same time, I think Alex has no better choice than to help the Loroi against the Umiak at this time.

Fingers crossed that we can somehow see the Well of Souls stop the war with its disruptive gravity well, rather than a genocide.

[Demarquis]

The Loroi are not more ruthless than we are. However, the question is not how many Loroi were massacred by other Loroi in their history, or how that ratio can be compared to what we, Humans, did. No matter what horrible atrocities we committed, there were still Humans left after that. The point is how likely are the Loroi to commit a third xenocide? Less likely than the Humans, actually, since the Loroi are not the absolute power. The Union was nearly shattered after the Tithric debacle, and I doubt that the other members would support the Loroi for something that was not even provoked. Alex, however, does not know how the Union works on the inside and has to prepare for the worst. That is the main problem that is shown in the comic.

What is your evidence that the Loroi require the support of their allies to undertake a military operation on their own, or that disapproval would stop them? I would think rather that a history of exterminating allies who disappoint would tend to keep them well in line...

[Mk_C]

What is your evidence that the Loroi require the support of their allies to undertake a military operation on their own, or that disapproval would stop them? I would think rather that a history of exterminating allies who disappoint would tend to keep them well in line...

In the very plot we are witnessing, the main firepower on every Loroi capital are Historian handmedown Pulse Cannons and Delrias-manufactured particle blasters, while the ships themselves all fly on Pipolsid drives. The theater of operations is Neridi space with vital military infrastructure presented by Neridi space stations crewed by Neridi.

Beyond the visible plot, Tempest and other ships have Golim in their crews canonically, and Barsam provide a shitton of industrial products for manufacture of Loroi ships.

Seeing how swimmingly well the entire war goes for Loroi, and how plentiful their reserves and spare forces for additional tasks are, I'm positively certain that losing all this stuff and being forced to take it from their former allies by violence will not affect the Imperial Fleet's capacity to replenish it's continuous losses, and will not compromise it's (already, khm, troubled) capacity to maintain the front line against the Hierarchy forces.

I would think rather that a history of exterminating allies who disappoint would tend to keep them well in line...

The integrity of the entire Union hangs on the belief that the xenocides that Loroi did commit were horrible tragic exceptions forced by exceptional circumstances and definitely not their SOP. If Loroi prove that exterminating anyone who they happen to dislike today is just how they roll, remaining in the Union rapidly becomes a suicidal option for every current member - because sooner or later Loroi will get upset over something, so even becoming a slave to the Hierarchy suddenly turns to appear as a much more reasonable option. Especially seeing that if Loroi allies do decide to turn coat, they can guarantee a quick victory for the shells. So Loroi are very much interested in keeping their aggressive acts of xenocide to absolute possible minimum, so their allies can stay with them for the benefit of being neither enslaved, nor exterminated - even if it clashes with Loroi traditional cultural way of thinking.

[Cthulhu]

Yes, MK_C already explained it very well, thank you.

The Union was formed after the final Mannadi war. The subjugated populations resisted the occupation, and the Loroi began enacting harsh measures that were pretty much a massacre. Alerted by this, the other races, chiefly the Barsam, proposed a more peaceful solution to the brewing trouble that this "war crime" caused. Instead of going to war to stop the xenocidal Loroi Empire, they all would join a common government instead. Thus, the apparently aggressive Loroi would be bound into a framework of laws and responsibilities that should prevent them from committing atrocities on this level ever again. Surprisingly enough, this worked very well so far, and all Union members live in a symbiotic relationship. But if the Loroi were to return to their "evil" ways once again, the other members would do everything in order to restrain them.

[Werra]

In the very plot we are witnessing, the main firepower on every Loroi capital are Historian handmedown Pulse Cannons and Delrias-manufactured particle blasters, while the ships themselves all fly on Pipolsid drives. The theater of operations is Neridi space with vital military infrastructure presented by Neridi space stations crewed by Neridi.

None of this means that the Loroi can't do without their allies or that their allies have the means to resist Loroi influence.
That technology? The Loroi are familiar with every single step from R&R to manufacturing to deployment. Just because one of their allies came up with it does not stop the Loroi from being fully capable of implementing the technology. Furthermore, the infrastructure necessary for the war effort is certainly firmly in Loroi hands. Either via direct involvement of the Loroi government/companies or indirectly via the aliens in control of such things being carefully vetted and deeply ingrained into the Unions (soft) power structure.
The Union has existed for 600 years during which the Loroi were the dominant power. The various alien economies must be so deeply connected and dependend on Loroi tolerance -if not goodwill- that a rebellion is in all likelihood unthinkable.
The Loroi have a dedicated caste focused on dealing with aliens and thought espionage which is capable of influencing emotions and actions telepathically. Once the Loroi have access to your leaders and key people the effort of ousting their hold on you is monumental. Before you say anything, the Mizol aren't there to be friendly with aliens. Their task is to ensure that dealings with aliens are beneficial to the Loroi Union, being friendly is merely a tool in their toolbox.

Beyond the visible plot, Tempest and other ships have Golim in their crews canonically, and Barsam provide a shitton of industrial products for manufacture of Loroi ships.

Golim are meat puppets incapable of resisting the Loroi. The Barsam are subject of everything said above.

I'm positively certain that being forced to take [war supplies] from their former allies by violence will affect the Imperial Fleet's capacity to maintain the front line against the Hierarchy forces.

1. You assume that the Loroi will have to use force and not other means.
2. You assume that the Loroi allies have the means and organization to resist. They're facing deeply entrenched mind readers.
3. You assume that the Loroi allies have the desire to resist. Putting the fate of some far away alien species above your peoples prosperity, survival even if things go really badly, is not something lots of species will do.

The integrity of the entire Union hangs on the belief that the xenocides that Loroi did commit were horrible tragic exceptions forced by exceptional circumstances and definitely not their SOP.

No, the Union members can deal with the Loroi being xenocidal. They have done so twice. What they trust in is that the Loroi are rational actors. As long as that is assured, their allies can be certain that they won't be xenocided.

Especially seeing that if Loroi allies do decide to turn coat, they can guarantee a quick victory for the shells.

How would a species allied to the Loroi switch sides and join the Umiak? They have no army, they have no way of contacting the Umiak and they are incapable of hiding their plans from the Loroi. Walk me through the process, please.

The Union was formed after the final Mannadi war. The subjugated populations resisted the occupation, and the Loroi began enacting harsh measures that were pretty much a massacre. Alerted by this, the other races, chiefly the Barsam, proposed a more peaceful solution to the brewing trouble that this "war crime" caused. Instead of going to war to stop the xenocidal Loroi Empire, they all would join a common government instead. Thus, the apparently aggressive Loroi would be bound into a framework of laws and responsibilities that should prevent them from committing atrocities on this level ever again. Surprisingly enough, this worked very well so far, and all Union members live in a symbiotic relationship. But if the Loroi were to return to their "evil" ways once again, the other members would do everything in order to restrain them.

Mannadi telepathic resistance made Loroi occupation less effective than they were accustomed to, and when Mannadi insurgents bitterly fought the occupation, the Loroi started simply wiping them out. International outrage at these actions threatened to shatter the Loroi Alliance; only the formation of the Loroi Union ended the threat of a galaxy-wide war and spared the Mannadi from extinction.

What the Loroi did was universally recognized as a genocide. The Mannadi were an interstellar species and yet the Loroi still mobilized enough personel and material to conceivably whipe them out. They made such an effort of it that even with the limited and time consuming way information travels in Outsider, the other species still heard enough of it to react so strongly at what was happening. So either the Loroi did not care that the other species heard of their actions or their effort was too large to be hidden. Both choices are equally callous.
The Loroi allies reaction was not to stop the genocide, but to surrender their autonomy to a state construct that has the Loroi as the undisputed central power. Anyone but the Loroi basically disarmed voluntarily. Voting power is based on population numbers and the Loroi can easily dominate those. Loroi also enjoy certain privileges that the other member species simply do not have. Like the right to be solely tried in Loroi courts.

If France had joined the Reich as a junior member on the promise that Germany stops their jewish genocide, would that have bound Germany into a framework of laws or a surrender?

But seriously, if the Loroi looked like the Umiak, none of you would defend their actions.

[Demarquis]

Werra already did an excellent job of summarizing the main points. I will only add that even if evrything Cthulhu and Mk C mentioned were correct, that wouldnt make the Loroi less ruthless, merely more practical. I could see them holding back because of various costs that might be imposed on them, but they would still be willing to do it, and thats what makes them ruthless.

[Cthulhu]

Well, for starters, you need to calm down, Werra, you are taking this fictional scenario way too serious.

The Loroi allies reaction was not to stop the genocide, but to surrender their autonomy to a state construct that has the Loroi as the undisputed central power. Anyone but the Loroi basically disarmed voluntarily. Voting power is based on population numbers and the Loroi can easily dominate those. Loroi also enjoy certain privileges that the other member species simply do not have. Like the right to be solely tried in Loroi courts.

The Loroi Union has worked so well, because every member is, for the most part, doing what they can do best. The Loroi may have privileges, but as long as they do not step out of line, or abuse those, the system works well enough. However, if they were to act in such a way as to upset the other member's populaces, can they really keep them in line and force them to work? They may have the technologies, but not enough workforce to supply the wartime demands.
One of the major points that irks the other races is the Loroi telepathy and their sense of superiority. But as long as the Loroi keep this to themselves, as they mostly do, it does not lead to further problems. This is different if the Loroi try to exterminate the psi-immune Humans for nothing but this ability, since it will escalate things far beyond what the war-strained Union can afford.

If France had joined the Reich as a junior member on the promise that Germany stops their jewish genocide, would that have bound Germany into a framework of laws or a surrender?

Except that France did exactly that, even though there were other reasons as well. The French population knew that the Germans would not try to murder them, and thus had little reason to organize a resistance movement. The nazis did define who was on the extermination list and who was considered "Aryans" as well. Thus, there was an implicit understanding between the conqueror and the subjugated about the rules of the occupation. Both abided by that for the most part, and the Germans committed few "harsh measures" against the French, especially if compared to what happened in the Soviet Union or Italy.

But seriously, if the Loroi looked like the Umiak, none of you would defend their actions.

The Loroi are not real, so nobody is "defending" their actions. At best, we are trying to understand the author's reasoning.

[Krulle]

We were given a hypothetical question comparing Humans ( or what we would like Humans to be) with a theoretical alien species, which has a fictional background. On this, we could extrapolate certain things, and try to answer the hypothetical question.

Arguments have been brought forward on all sides, one side being backed by historical and current facts about current Humans, the other side with fictional facts of backgrounds story of a fictional species in a fictional story.

Whichever you answer will be correct, as there is not enough information to give a definite answer.

[Werra]

@Cthulhu
Ok, but Demarquis has already pointed out how not being able to take ruthles actions does not equal not being ruthless. I have already made the case why the kind of popular resistance you are talking about is extremely difficult against the Loroi. The Loroi would need to be idiots that willingly not make good use of their inherent abilities for that to happen.

@Krulle
I am sorry man, but your interpretation of the Punic wars is not a historical fact. Rome paid a high price for her victories in both wars. The first punic war saw the biggest naval battles in history until the...uh, Korea Japan war? The Mannadi are explicitly described as having avoided active military confrontation with the Loroi and the only difficulties for the Loroi that we know of are defensive advantages of the Mannadi.
Neither is your assertment that Loroi history has nothing comparable to the Holocaust a fact. If you charge us with talking solely about fiction, then you are guilty too, as you are making a comparison here. Beyond our admittedly spotty knowledge of Loroi history, we do know that they have engaged in two genocides of interstellar scale up to now. So we know that they have at least two events comparable to the Holocaust.