Aiien Racism... Why It Would Exist In A Scifi Setting

[Bamax]

Full disclaimer.... let's not get into IRL issues please!

That said, if humans have their cultural and skin and hair differences that they tend to struggle to deal peacefully with each other over, surely the differences between aliens who look less like us and with a different culture would be more... acute and problematic.


I think it goes without saying that humanoids will have a natural affinity for other alien humanoids, whereas non-humanoids would probably have an affinity for any sentient life similar to their own.


Honestly, I don't think anyone wants to read about an alien culture that is incomprehensible, so that is why writers default to giving them at least SOME human traits we can understand or relate to.


But given rascism is a reality, I would expect it especially between sentient alien races, and I would also expect it prudent to avoid or at least be aware of places where rascism was high so one does not visit them and get hurt.


It is all too easy to consider one's native culture to be superior to an alien one.... and maybe it is even true.


So really the only thing keeping such a person with a view from actually treating other alien races as lesser beings would be a strong sense of altruism with a view to equality despite their lesser state.

Basically you would have an alien trying to uplift other aliens to their level... which could and would cause problems by aliens who don't want that.


Alien race relations would dodgey and complex to say the least even if war was averted.

In some ways war is easier than peace, as it is easier to rule by the sword than get people (alien races) to cooperate with you because they actually respect you.

Respect takes time to earn and can be lost and must also be maintained, but war is far more simple as it does not require enemies do anymore than die or surrender to your whims.

[Keklas Rekobah]

What you refer to is "Specism", not "Racism".

Specism is what the Loroi express against the Umiak.

Racism is what certain Loroi may have expressed when they criticized Perrien cuisine as "vile" and "caustic", or what Stillstorm may have felt toward Tempo when discussing Alex's diplomatic status.

Certainly, both "-isms" would exist even among the most cosmopolitan* of space-faring species.

*Pun intended.

[Arioch]

I don't think that disliking a particular ethnic cuisine is "racist." Nor is having a professional disagreement with someone who happens to be of a different race than you.

I don't think the concept of racism really applies that well to alien species... I think at the heart of our concept of racism is the assumption that all humans are fundamentally the same, and so to treat a particular social group of humans as different from your own group is to deny that assumption. But aliens are by definition not the same as humans; so to treat them differently from humans is kind of necessary. Pretending that biological differences between human groups or individuals don't make any difference is silly enough for humans, but it's just a deal breaker with aliens that may be, for example, obviously smarter than humans, or obviously less smart than humans.

I also don't think that disliking a species that you have only known as enemies really qualifies as racism. There are no peaceful Umiak for the Loroi to interact with. If you don't dislike a group that are literally trying to kill you, you're going to have much bigger problems than worrying about whose feelings got hurt over insensitive language. Enemy epithets have been pretty common in the human history of warfare; when the Brits called the Germans in WWII "Jerries" or "Huns," those epithets were hardly racist... since the Germans were of the same race as the British.

These days the term "racism" is so overused that it's starting to lose its meaning. Rather than try to make up awkward new words like "speciesist," it's probably better to use existing terms like "xenophobia" or simply "intolerance." I prefer the latter term (as "phobia" is another term that's being misused to the point of irrelevance).

I think we would have to wait until the war is over and the Loroi have a chance to interact with the Umiak in order to tell if they are really intolerant towards them.

[Tamri]

Well, yes.

Racism is a purely "intrahuman" term. It is mainly synthetic, in order to designate a special case of chauvinism, which partially refers to xenophobia as a biological aspect.

It is inapplicable to any non-human species, because it is based on human social relations, and not on their real (or imaginary) biological differences. In relation to aliens (hypothetically), the xenophobia\xenophilia pair can be applied as a measure of instinctive rejection\acceptance.

Hypothetically, because the mechanism of xenophobia itself, in fact, is also applicable only to representatives of the human or related species, as were the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons, who in current terms were not different species, but rather an example of precisely the very different races of protohumans, since they were proven to be able to (and had) common offspring.

Personally, I am inclined to think that in relation to aliens we will be more guided by the concepts of sympathy-antipathy and tolerance-disgust, as to various animals, albeit intelligent. Because this is the closest marker of attitude to any non-human beings in modern man ... and man in general, in fact.

But yes, if we ever meet hypothetical Loroi who will be so similar to us that without any preparation we can correctly interpret their body language, understand their thinking and even partially psycho-biochemical markers - then yes, in their attitude there is a couple of xenophobia\xenophilia will work great.

[Werra]

Well, yes.

Racism is a purely "intrahuman" term. It is mainly synthetic, in order to designate a special case of chauvinism, which partially refers to xenophobia as a biological aspect.

It is inapplicable to any non-human species, because it is based on human social relations, and not on their real (or imaginary) biological differences. In relation to aliens (hypothetically), the xenophobia\xenophilia pair can be applied as a measure of instinctive rejection\acceptance.

Species are not monolithic blogs. It is entirely possible for aliens to be racist towards humans. This racist behaviour can either be copied from how humans treat each other or stem from their own experiences/preferences.

Thanks to cultural compatibility for example the Loroi could vastly prefer the more restrained, orderly and polite Japanese over the outgoing, touchy, brash Latinos.

SpoilerShow

I lied, Japanese women got very touchy on the Tokyo subway.

[Bamax]

Well, yes.

Racism is a purely "intrahuman" term. It is mainly synthetic, in order to designate a special case of chauvinism, which partially refers to xenophobia as a biological aspect.

It is inapplicable to any non-human species, because it is based on human social relations, and not on their real (or imaginary) biological differences. In relation to aliens (hypothetically), the xenophobia\xenophilia pair can be applied as a measure of instinctive rejection\acceptance.

Species are not monolithic blogs. It is entirely possible for aliens to be racist towards humans. This racist behaviour can either be copied from how humans treat each other or stem from their own experiences/preferences.

Thanks to cultural compatibility for example the Loroi could vastly prefer the more restrained, orderly and polite Japanese over the outgoing, touchy, brash Latinos.

SpoilerShow

I lied, Japanese women got very touchy on the Tokyo subway.

I do not consider myself racist, but I definitely prefer western and latino restaurants over chinese.

Since chinese culture from my experience does not put a high value on smiling or being generally kind in demeanor to customeers.

They are always all business, and do not seem to care about the customer at all, just his/her money.

[Keklas Rekobah]

The concept of “Specism” has been kicked around the vegan websites for years, so it it not new; neither is the idea of hating another being for no other reason than being a member of a certain species — humans versus insects and rodents, for example.

Then there is the conflation of “race” and “species”. Humanity is a species, comprised of many different races. Race is to humans as breed is to cats. To say that there is a singular “human race” is not only erroneous, but it invites racism by its very nature. If I state that I am a member of the human race, then that statement implies only my race is human, and all the others are not. If, however, I say that I am a member of the human species, then that is not only a correct statement, but it is also an inclusive one. Members of each human race are implicitly stated as being part of the same species: Homo sapiens, called Humanity.

In all of Loroi history, and in the current storyline, I have not read of any racism among the Loroi. Extreme xenophobia, but no overt racism. The example of Perrein cuisine was a weak example, of course; but racism often carries with it a burden of disdain for the tastes and customs of others.

However, there is some form of classism in the Loroi species. The military is in charge, and everyone else lives to support the military. This is necessary under the circumstances, and I wonder if it will continue long after the Loroi Union is victorious.

[Tamri]

No.

They can be racist in relation to their species, and not to humans.

The very word "racism" refers to race, i.e. parts of the SPECIES. A man who despises dogs is a racist? Is the dolphin-hating man a chauvinist? This whole set of beliefs, norms and ideologies applies exclusively to PEOPLE. In relation to any other intelligent species, all this garbage does not spread.

Yes, of course, there is such a concept in psychology as "projection" and "transfer", and in culture there is a funny term "anthropomorphism". But how much more we try to measure other species by our own standards, they do not become us.

But when such a situation arises, terms will also appear in order to separate intraspecific friction from interspecific friction.

Well, or you can come up with them.

P.S. I doubt that the Loroi will have any cultural-ethnic preferences in relation to humans, at least COMMON preferences for all Loroi.

[Tamri]

SpoilerShow

The concept of “Specism” has been kicked around the vegan websites for years, so it it not new; neither is the idea of hating another being for no other reason than being a member of a certain species — humans versus insects and rodents, for example.

Then there is the conflation of “race” and “species”. Humanity is a species, comprised of many different races. Race is to humans as breed is to cats. To say that there is a singular “human race” is not only erroneous, but it invites racism by its very nature. If I state that I am a member of the human race, then that statement implies only my race is human, and all the others are not. If, however, I say that I am a member of the human species, then that is not only a correct statement, but it is also an inclusive one. Members of each human race are implicitly stated as being part of the same species: Homo sapiens, called Humanity.

In all of Loroi history, and in the current storyline, I have not read of any racism among the Loroi. Extreme xenophobia, but no overt racism. The example of Perrein cuisine was a weak example, of course; but racism often carries with it a burden of disdain for the tastes and customs of others.

However, there is some form of classism in the Loroi species. The military is in charge, and everyone else lives to support the military. This is necessary under the circumstances, and I wonder if it will continue long after the Loroi Union is victorious.

I would not say that Loroi is VERY xenophobic. At least not more than humans. An example with Perrein's kitchen is generally past the checkout.

Seriously, right on Earth, the cuisine (especially some "national dishes") of one nation can cause bewilderment, disgust and even immediate vomiting in a representative of another nation.

Not because a conventional European hates Asians or Chukchi, but because his body is accustomed to a certain type and composition of food, and to the fact that some food combinations are organically dangerous and unacceptable. At the physiological level.

And we still do not touch upon the layer of cultural and national thereotypes ...

[Snoofman]

Judging by what we know from the comic and comic lore so far, it seems logical that all the existing alien civilisations in Outsiderverse have to some degree put laws in effect that outlaw or prohibit speech or acts of aggression motivated by racism/specism. How great or small that discriminative behavior stretches across worlds or stars depends on the alien culture, but it would not seem entirely unreasonable to guess that the alien races have strived to create a system that seems fair to all species and ethnicities of those species. However, no matter how far they have progressed, there are still mobs or minorities that suffer at the hands of the spiteful for a variety of reasons.

To be more specific, the Outsider lore says that the Delrias and Morat (two species separated by space and a million years of evolution/cultural development) originated from the same species despite growing up on different ends of the Local Bubble. That should be enough to make them compatible with each other, and yet the Delrias generally label the Morat as "degenerate scavengers". Name calling itself may not be racism, but it can set the grounds for discrimination, from which racism originates.

My point is, no matter how far we, or aliens, advance, there is bound to be a species or a race within that species that thinks it is better than everyone else. Or is driven by such hatred/fear, that it will go out of its way to undermine that hated race. But there are bound to be affectionate alien souls that, if not motivated by a belief in sapient equality, are ruled by their compassion for other people/life-forms.


But have no fear. For there is a cure for all this cruel hatred in the universe. And that is why I've come to share a bit with you about our lords and saviors... the Gatherers. To learn more, please visit your local Barsam Parish!

[Werra]

No.

They can be racist in relation to their species, and not to humans.

The very word "racism" refers to race, i.e. parts of the SPECIES. A man who despises dogs is a racist? Is the dolphin-hating man a chauvinist? This whole set of beliefs, norms and ideologies applies exclusively to PEOPLE. In relation to any other intelligent species, all this garbage does not spread.

Wrong, as aliens would be able to perceive race differences between humans. Just as there are lots of people that hate pitbulls but have no problem with dogs in general.

[Tamri]

Wrong, as aliens would be able to perceive race differences between humans. Just as there are lots of people that hate pitbulls but have no problem with dogs in general.

Only we still don't call people who don't like pit bulls racists.

I understand that from the outside it may look like speculation, but all this terminology really only concerns people. By analogy, it can describe processes and situations within other species (although now people are generally more inclined to describe similar situations among the same of great primates in terms of biology, rather than sociology).

Its application (terminilogy) in relation to interspecies interactions is incorrect.

First of all, because the existing terminology is based not so much on phenomena as on their background and causes of occurrence (well, in normally, let's not talk about idiots now), while in relation to other species - with external identity, the situation may have a completely different motivation , background and reason, for both sides.

An attempt at generalization can only confuse and aggravate an already difficult situation.

[Werra]

Only we still don't call people who don't like pit bulls racists.

I understand that from the outside it may look like speculation, but all this terminology really only concerns people.

Yes, which is why we do not call people that only hate one race of dogs racist. But are you denying personhood to the alien or the human here?

Its application (terminilogy) in relation to interspecies interactions is incorrect.

First of all, because the existing terminology is based not so much on phenomena as on their background and causes of occurrence (well, in normally, let's not talk about idiots now), while in relation to other species - with external identity, the situation may have a completely different motivation , background and reason, for both sides.

An attempt at generalization can only confuse and aggravate an already difficult situation.

Racism is differential treatment on the basis of race. The motivation or whether the racist position is justified or even the correct one is irrelevant. No idea which richly manured field of academia grew that word salat of yours.
Sapient aliens that land on earth can definitly perceive differences between human races (neutral: population groups) and thus treat those groups differently from each other.

[Tamri]

Yes, which is why we do not call people that only hate one race of dogs racist. But are you denying personhood to the alien or the human here?

The example with dogs is for illustration purposes. In fact, with animals in general. Some species of dolphins or monkeys are very smart and even know how to talk consciously, but this does not change the situation at all.

Until a being falls within our criteria of "humanity", our social "kitchen" does not apply to them at all. However, it probably works in the opposite direction. Or not.

Hypotheses ...

Racism is differential treatment on the basis of race. The motivation or whether the racist position is justified or even the correct one is irrelevant. No idea which richly manured field of academia grew that word salat of yours.
Sapient aliens that land on earth can definitly perceive differences between human races (neutral: population groups) and thus treat those groups differently from each other.

An interesting point of view, but unfortunately it is not.

Racism is offensive, degrading or discriminatory behavior based on race.

By itself, the differentiation of behavior when communicating with an interlocutor on the basis of his race, nation, culture, etc., is not any kind of "-ism". There are still no absolutely universal norms of behavior on Earth, and in some places, including in the first world, these norms can be very different.

Conformity with the environment as a whole is the norm of behavior in society. At the same time, the real attitude towards the interlocutor plays little role in comparison with external demonstrations.

I will assume that we will demand the same from the aliens, and we ourselves will adapt to their norms during our stay on their territory, well, within certain limits.

The fact that aliens can distinguish between human races (which is not at all a fact) does not mean that they will treat different races differently. In the end, aliens do not have our cultural and historical baggage that determines this attitude. In the case of the same Loroi, I very much doubt that IRL people will divide them into races and somehow change their attitude depending on it. Rather, they will generalize under the general word "Loroi" and extend approximately the same attitude to all, with the exception of two and a half specialists.

I see no reason why 99.9% of Loroi will not do the same. About umiak, I generally keep quiet, I suspect that an ordinary soldier can easily not only not distinguish such subtleties, but also can confuse a human with a loroi in principle.

[Tamri]

And what's stopping aliens from being offensive towards some humans based on race once these aliens have learned to keep the human races apart from each other?
Nothing.

Mmm, I don't know, unwillingness to doing nonsense, for example?

If we write off aliens from humans (and judging by the course of the discussion, we definitely do this), then idiots who want to scratch their ego or find a target for aggression (as well as idiots who find it acceptable to incite hatred in order to achieve their own goals) is very rarely make an effort to concretize the image of hatred or condemnation. We hate blacks - okay, we hate ALL blacks. We hate the Chinese - it means that all Asians are enrolled in the Chinese, and so on.

In general, those who want to hate or aggression do not need a REAL image at all, the imaginary is quite enough for them. Therefore, a fool will not understand the details, and a smart one will not engage in nonsense.

===

A value judgment is the basis of our thinking, in itself it is not bad.

It becomes bad when not used in moderation or for its intended purpose.

[Werra]

Mmm, I don't know, unwillingness to doing nonsense, for example?

[...]

A value judgment is the basis of our thinking, in itself it is not bad.

It becomes bad when not used in moderation or for its intended purpose.

My example was admittedly crude, but it did serve its purpose demonstrating that aliens can commit the same actions that would get any human labeled as racist. Since these aliens can also learn, understand and use a human language, they are also capable of picking up the same motivation.

The issue with coupling a definition with a value judgement is that it precludes the concept then from ever being sensible (or not being sensible when the v.j. is positive). An example pertaining to racism would be asian travel guides that warn their readers about the brown parts of Paris.* Racist, to be sure, yet also effective shorthand for avoiding areas with a high risk of crime.

That brown Parisians are trapped in a self reinforcing cycle of racism->poverty->crime->racism is not the racists problem. They will still reduce their personal chances of becoming the victim of a criminal by avoiding people and places based on race.

Now what of any of this behaviour depends on the race or species of the racist individual? How would it be invalid to label the above as racist when done by aliens?

And if racism is an intra species concept, how and why wouldn't friendship be the same?

*Not even making this up.

[Bamax]

Frankly IRL racists and the folks that celebrate and pretend that being a thug or a criminal IS what makes one brown even if they are or are not brown deserve each other, since they work together, knowingly or unknowingly, to perpetuate the problem.

The truth is that some racists really do put a blanket negative label based on skin color alone, and nothing a brown person may do will change that, but adding fuel to the fire by actually becoming the very things the rascists claim to justify their rascism with does not help.

The popular media is guilty of this, and brown actors will complain about a lack of roles they get to play due to the color of their skin and what people assume it implies. That said, although the UK is no stranger to rascism, it is amazing that they will put brown characters in roles one will seldom ever see on American TV.

For example, one thing non-common in American TV sit coms is mixed race couples, whereas I actually saw this on Dr Who once, even though they eventually broke up, still not very common in American TV to this day.

[Tamri]

SpoilerShow

My example was admittedly crude, but it did serve its purpose demonstrating that aliens can commit the same actions that would get any human labeled as racist. Since these aliens can also learn, understand and use a human language, they are also capable of picking up the same motivation.

The issue with coupling a definition with a value judgement is that it precludes the concept then from ever being sensible (or not being sensible when the v.j. is positive). An example pertaining to racism would be asian travel guides that warn their readers about the brown parts of Paris.* Racist, to be sure, yet also effective shorthand for avoiding areas with a high risk of crime.

That brown Parisians are trapped in a self reinforcing cycle of racism->poverty->crime->racism is not the racists problem. They will still reduce their personal chances of becoming the victim of a criminal by avoiding people and places based on race.

Now what of any of this behaviour depends on the race or species of the racist individual? How would it be invalid to label the above as racist when done by aliens?

And if racism is an intra species concept, how and why wouldn't friendship be the same?

*Not even making this up.

As I wrote earlier, the ability to figure it out does not guarantee the desire to do it. Aliens have a different cultural and historical background so that they cannot perceive our biases in the same way as we do.

If they are similar to us, and their goal is to hate or humiliate people, they will not sort out, just hang a label and calm down on this. Why hate a specific handful of people when you can hate everyone? Likewise, racists absolutely do not give a damn about the age-old internal strife among blacks, they hate them all en masse.

In any other case, if people give them a specific reason for hostility, it will be easier and more effective for them to extend it to something more important and material than race, religion or ethnic group, for example, organizations, countries, or specific people.

In the same way, I am absolutely sure that humans will not differentiate their attitude towards Loroi depending on their race or home colony, but WILL differentiate it in relation to caste, social status or personal merit of a particular loroi, especially when they a little understand about the structure of their society. The bottom line is that it is much easier for idiots to find a target for hatred closer to home than to fly over many light years to tell aliens how much they hate them, while those who go so far are usually guided by more pragmatic considerations for building relationships.

Because it is also true that the urge to fear and hate someone who is different is in the nature of humans, it is also true that it requires energy, which the body is trying with all its might to conserve. And if the aforementioned organism finds an opportunity to get its portion of endorphins with less energy, it will definitely do it.

[Keklas Rekobah]

The Loroi's primary goal seems to be survival as a species, and not subjugation (e.g., enslavement) of other species.

With that said, I would be concerned IRL that Emperor Greywind might consider Humanity as a ready source of cannon fodder, fit only for deployment as an expendable "First Strike Force" to soften up the Umiak lines before the Loroi heavies close in.

[Werra]

@Tamri
Your language is very emotionally charged. That's where a value based definition gets you, as you have nothing to say about real world examples of people being racist on rational grounds. So I guess calling people idiots will have to do.
Anyway, I think I made my point clear enough. There is nothing that inherently stops aliens from being racist towards humans.