Aiien Racism... Why It Would Exist In A Scifi Setting

[Keklas Rekobah]

↑↑ Yes, "Cultural Friction", for those who neither recognize nor understand it, can induce unwarranted fear and/or disdain for another race.

Interacting with my wife and her people has been interesting, to say the least.  Showing respect for their elders and kindness toward their children, as well as at least pretending to enjoy their cuisine, has gone a long way toward mutual acceptance.  There will always be those "What the h..." incidents on both sides, but a quick and sincere apology also helps a lot.

[Tamri]

In my opinion, the discussion is clearly at an impasse. Werra insists that regardless of conditions, baseline and current, aliens will be familiar with the concept of racism and will apply it to humans.

The other side, represented mainly by Cthulhu and me, appeals to the fact that the aliens, to begin with, may not have this concept at all, but even if they have it, it is not at all a fact that the semantic and cultural content will be identical to ours. And, finally, even if they have it and is identical to ours, it is not at all a fact that they will engage in stupid things and divide humanity into races, some of which they will not love, and some of which, on the contrary, will sympathize.

If both sides are not going to change their own beliefs in some way (personally, I am not going to), and the arguments have already gone into the third round, I propose to end the fruitless discussion.

[Keklas Rekobah]

↑ The impasse is that we know of only ONE sophontic species, and that species does exhibit racism.

Whether or not an extraterrestrial species would also exhibit racism (or sexism, or any other -ism) is a moot point until we actually encounter one IRL.

[Cthulhu]

There is actually no real impasse, since we are debating about racism in science-fiction, not a real-world scenario (which we have no basis for). I'm merely trying to demonstrate that racism is a very human concept that is derived from our instincts, culture and way of life. In the case of, again, fictional aliens, the author may choose to use those humans concepts or to invent something different. There are no logical hurdles that would stop him from doing either, merely his abilities to present it in a believable way could stop him from achieving that goal.
It is entirely up to him, he may want to present the human nature in a new context to make a point or try to come up with a new insight. On the other hand, he himself cannot be free of those concepts even if he wishes for it, so they will influence the writing anyway.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Yes, racism is a human concept; but it may (or may nnot) also be an Yttribian, Gaznoxian, or ▐█▄▀-ian concept, as well.  We simply do not know.

[Tamri]

I said the same thing in other words, albeit probably in much worse English.

However, halfway meeting either with me or with you is didn't take place, so is it worth it to continue stirring the porridge?

[Cthulhu]

However, halfway meeting either with me or with you is didn't take place, so is it worth it to continue stirring the porridge?

Nah, not really, so let's shelve the topic for now. I also wasn't arguing with your point, but trying to overcome Werra's stubbornness.

[Werra]

I never claimed that aliens will be racist. Merely that they can become racist towards humans from either their own experiences or by copying native culture. This was in answer to the claim that calling alien behaviour racist would be invalid due to racism being rooted in human culture.

If I am beign stubborn it is because your arguments don't seem to refute this position. Let us say that racism truly is an uniquely human concept. So what? Then the aliens can still learn of it after making contact. Haven't they learned how to build starships already?

@Cthulhu
You can shelf your talk about the author. There is no distinction between a fictional race and a hypothetical race of aliens for the purposes of discussion, as we have to treat both as what-ifs that need to make sense within our understanding of reality.

[Cthulhu]

The distinction between sci-fi and hypothetical reality lies in the author's intention. I'm merely explaining that neither needs to adhere to our own concepts.
Even if the (real or fictional) aliens adopt or copy new ways, it won't be technically "racism" or any "in-group" bias, because those are rooted in our instincts. The core of the problem is that "-isms" are never entirely objective due to how our brains work, and in a very specific way. An artificial facsimile concocted by an alien mind will never be the same. It could be comparable in effect, yet different in its structure and background.
Starships need to adhere to the universal laws of physics, but minds do not have to follow any universal standards. Adopting "racism" may be simply impossible, or the aliens would have an even worse concept that we could never imagine.

[Demarquis]

"People have lots of reasons to be racist, only a subset of which are about self-esteem. Bad experiences with members of a certain race can and have caused racism towards that race, for instance."

The other major category is institutional racism, which is a societal level effect. This is an outcome of the balance of power in a community--if institutions are set up to favor the majority, we are justified in labeling that racism, even if most individuals of the majority are free of any obvious bigotry (and even if the minority being discriminated against isn't technically a "race"). Loroi might like us personally, but if humans are hired less often due to our species, that's institutional racism.

Bad experiences may contribute to racism, but many people have negative experiences and do not become more racist, so something must explain the difference. In this case, it's the degree to which someone over identifies with their in-groups.

As for the likelihood that an alien species might display something resembling racism, anything is possible, but I would point out that racism is essentially a cognitive hueristic, a shortcut intended to help save mental resources. Any biological species would likely be faced with a similar constraint, and an in group bias has obvious survival value to a social species. So it's not*unlikely* either.

[orion1836]

My background is in business, but my mom studied anthropology and I grew up with her books. It is my honest belief that what modern, Western society calls racism is simply an outgrowth of the tribalism that allowed modern man to get where we are today. We are damned good at bonding together and supporting an "in-group" and it is only the modern veneer of civilization that gets the majority to look past what would be their instinctive "in-group." Give anyone any reason to "other" a group that was formally seen as part of the tribe (such as a cold civil war going hot) and watch how fast we turn on each other with prejudice.

If you could magically wave a wand and make everyone the same race, we would still be prejudiced against one another along the fault lines of a thousand other differences (language, religion, nationality, etc). Race is just visually obvious.

For this reason, I believe the great unifier of mankind will be aliens... nothing like the ultimate other to make that perceived "in-group" as large as possible.

So let's keep searching for extraterrestrial life, so we can be space racist together!

[Tamri]

Which, by the way, is very funny.

Many people who write or think science fiction are inclined to introduce one or another kind of batrization - they say, cut off aggression, throw xenophobia to hell, and generally reduce the negative emotional spectrum, and add rationality over emotions, we will have superhumans of the future!

And you start to understand the issue, then you understand - it will turn out to be crap. Because all our thinking and society are built on this basis. Cut off the aggression - we get inert slugs that can't tear their backs off the couch to go for groceries. Without xenophobia, motivation will again suffer, but also any relationship that is precisely built on our "friend or foe" system. Well, a shift in rationality can generally destroy our thinking and self-awareness, since it is very much tied to the sensory sphere.

In general, it's scary to somehow climb into the basic settings, without rechecking and a long-term control group...

[Keklas Rekobah]

In the Traveller RPG, the greatest prejudice is toward psionics and those who use them.  Thus, the greatest threat to the Imperium is the neighboring Zhodani Consulate, wherein psionic abilities are prized and those who exhibit psionic abilities are venerated.

Never mind the wolves (Vargr) howling at the coreward borders, or the lions (Aslan) ravaging their way from the spinward regions, or the starfish (Hivers) manipulating their way across human space, or even the centaurs (K'kree) declaring jihad against all meat-eaters in the galaxy.

No ... you have to watch out for any signs of  witchcraft  psionics in your neighbors' behavior, as this would indicate "the criminal use of mental powers for the manipulation of matter and energy, for sensing, and for communication".

[Demarquis]

My background is in business, but my mom studied anthropology and I grew up with her books. It is my honest belief that what modern, Western society calls racism is simply an outgrowth of the tribalism that allowed modern man to get where we are today. We are damned good at bonding together and supporting an "in-group" and it is only the modern veneer of civilization that gets the majority to look past what would be their instinctive "in-group." Give anyone any reason to "other" a group that was formally seen as part of the tribe (such as a cold civil war going hot) and watch how fast we turn on each other with prejudice.

If you could magically wave a wand and make everyone the same race, we would still be prejudiced against one another along the fault lines of a thousand other differences (language, religion, nationality, etc). Race is just visually obvious.

For this reason, I believe the great unifier of mankind will be aliens... nothing like the ultimate other to make that perceived "in-group" as large as possible.

So let's keep searching for extraterrestrial life, so we can be space racist together!

I think you're mom was right. As for the "Great Unifier", I wonder if you've read or seen "The Watchmen", wherein a major character agrees with you, and this becomes an important driver of the plot.

[Werra]

Even if the (real or fictional) aliens adopt or copy new ways, it won't be technically "racism" or any "in-group" bias, because those are rooted in our instincts. The core of the problem is that "-isms" are never entirely objective due to how our brains work, and in a very specific way. An artificial facsimile concocted by an alien mind will never be the same. It could be comparable in effect, yet different in its structure and background.

What and how causes us to exhibit racist behaviour depends on culture. Racism itself does not require any specifically human cultural norms. It is simply the unequal treatment of people alongside racial lines.
Also, please take note how you are now calling the emotions of aliens "artificial fascimiles" just because they aren't the right species for those feelings.

Adopting "racism" may be simply impossible, or the aliens would have an even worse concept that we could never imagine.

Any alien species that has built a starship has demonstrated the capability to discern the world around them to a degree sufficient enough for racism. If they can differentiate between the raw materials needed to manufacture flight electronics, they can keep apart the various sub-groups of man. If they can deal with the if-thens involved in space travel, they can deal with the if-thens of Skyrim belonging to the Nords.

[Tamri]

Any alien species that has built a starship has demonstrated the capability to discern the world around them to a degree sufficient enough for racism. If they can differentiate between the raw materials needed to manufacture flight electronics, they can keep apart the various sub-groups of man. If they can deal with the if-thens involved in space travel, they can deal with the if-thens of Skyrim belonging to the Nords.

And how many people in the modern world are able to distinguish by eye, say, brown iron ore from red? Speleologists, geologists and some metallurgists?

In general, I will repeat once again: the POSSIBILITY to do something is not the same as the DESIRE to do it. Yes, aliens will distinguish the races of humans. One and a half xenologist, for whom this is a specialized work, and another half of a diplomat, for whom this is a specific specialization.

Well, maybe another quarter of the merchant who will actively trade with humans, so they will learn how to distinguish us somehow.

For everyone else, we'll just be abstract "humans". Well, maybe on the most noticeable basis we will be divided into "pink humans" and "brown humans". Maybe even on "low" and "high", but that's not for sure.

Obviously, for the aforementioned specialists, our racial differences (like all other differences, in fact) by themselves will not matter at all. Only in the context represented by them, specialists, interests.

And other aliens will probably not care about us as much as the average European does not care about the average African now, or vice versa.

[Bamax]

I would be amused if in a scifi story a human was treated in a racist way by aliens... leading them into an existential crisis wondering why they cannot seem to catch a break from neither human nor alien racism lol.


Of course, if this human was the poster boy for the known negative sterotypes associated with his/her particular race/culture, hopefully he/she could figure out that toning that down may help some or at least with some individuals.


The average person is not a rabid racist that literally hates all of another given race, and those are the same folks that are more willing to put aside their fears IF someone who is 'other' does not come off as a threat and is instead considered an asset to society.

[Cthulhu]

What and how causes us to exhibit racist behaviour depends on culture. Racism itself does not require any specifically human cultural norms. It is simply the unequal treatment of people alongside racial lines.
Also, please take note how you are now calling the emotions of aliens "artificial fascimiles" just because they aren't the right species for those feelings.

That's exactly the problem, we are wired to assign people into groups and label them on a subconscious level. Therefore, it is an inherently subjective process that will always be unequal, unless we can get rid of our feelings altogether. Aliens will have other instincts in this regard, or even a lack thereof, it depends on how their society and emotions work.
If they were to try and adopt a foreign concept that they lack the cultural or instinctual background for, it will be a facsimile. Perhaps it could turn out better, less subjective, and thus less racist. Or the opposite.

Any alien species that has built a starship has demonstrated the capability to discern the world around them to a degree sufficient enough for racism. If they can differentiate between the raw materials needed to manufacture flight electronics, they can keep apart the various sub-groups of man. If they can deal with the if-thens involved in space travel, they can deal with the if-thens of Skyrim belonging to the Nords.

Racism is not only the mere fact of unequal treatment, it requires said difference to lack an objective reason for it. Aliens will be obviously different from us, and if we, but also them, manage to treat those differences objectively, then it's not racism. Maybe they breathe fluorine, which means that we must never get close to each other, and it's not because some of us are too racist to even breathe the same air as them, or vice-versa.

Anyway, let's shelve this whole matter, it leads to absolutely nowhere.

[Demarquis]

Racism is not only the mere fact of unequal treatment, it requires said difference to lack an objective reason for it. Aliens will be obviously different from us, and if we, but also them, manage to treat those differences objectively, then it's not racism. Maybe they breathe fluorine, which means that we must never get close to each other, and it's not because some of us are too racist to even breathe the same air as them, or vice-versa.

Anyway, let's shelve this whole matter, it leads to absolutely nowhere.

Not quite yet. Racism requires one other element, which I neglected to mention earlier. Racism is the unequal treatment of individuals based on group category. If the only objectively significant difference between two people is their group membership, and this causes someone to ignore other individual differences, then that's racism. So a human is better qualified to pilot the spacecraft than a Loroi, but the Loroi gets it, because they don't trust humans, because we lack telepathy and therefore are untrustworthy (regardless of how trustworthy this specific human may have been in the past).

It's true that an alien race might not do this, because their emotional makeup is different from ours (it's also true that they might not have any recognizable emotions, or a language, or any other psychological process we would recognize), but that obviously isn't the case here. So far, the Loroi seem to react very similarly to humans, with a few exceptional traits that mark them as different. I find the idea of Loroi racism plausible, though there is little evidence for it yet.

[Cthulhu]

Loroi are a special case, since they are an offshoot, so to speak. It stands to reason that some, if not most, of our instincts were copied over. Especially because many subconscious actions, like blushing, body language or facial expressions appear to be similar enough to be recognizable.