Alien Super Weapons

[Bamax]

WWII was the continuation and culmination of unresolved issues of WWI.


Due to the extremes of WWII, such as genocide and a desire to change the status quo dramatically, several super weapons were considered, but not all that could have been deployed actually were.

I do not need to say anything about the atom bomb, but what is less known is that the Japanese considered using a super weapon that Yamato ultimately turned down., probably because he realized if deployed there would be little to stop the USA from doing the same to them.


The weapon: A submarine fitted with some missile with a bio-weapon. A contagious type.

Launched into the USA from the coast.

If successful many civillians would have died, asnd though the USA feared invasion, I doubt Yamato would be so bold given he had his education in the USA in the past and knew what they were capable of given their resources.



So just curious... have anyone in the union been tinkering with superweapons or have they been too complacent because of Stillstorm winning 24/7 and far-sight?


Obviously the Umiak were not idle given that their Lotai was designed exactly to counter the Loroi.

I guess the one thing that would ruin the Umiak is something they have not prepped for that they did not know about. But they seem to have a good grasp of the Loroi and arguably know more about both the historians and the Loroi than the Loroi know about them.

The absurd thing is that the Umiak likely know thiings about the Historians that Mizol would LOVE to know since the Historians seem to have a rather dodgy and low trust alliance with the Loroi.

[Arioch]

Destroying the surface of a planet and all of its inhabitants is fairly trivial with the technology required to make a starship. You don't need "superweapons," especially something as dangerous and unpredictable as a biological weapon.

The trick is getting to the enemy population centers.

[Keklas Rekobah]

... The trick is getting to the enemy population centers.

Not really ... just make sure your passive survey covers the entire surface during local night and map out the locations of the brightest patches of light (cities), the strongest radar/radio sources (military), and the heaviest pollution (industry).

[Tamri]

Not really ... just make sure your passive survey covers the entire surface during local night and map out the locations of the brightest patches of light (cities), the strongest radar/radio sources (military), and the heaviest pollution (industry).

Jim meant that if you managed to get close to the enemy's planet, you absolutely do not need any kind of bio- and generally special weapons to grind its population into powder.

Common naval armament is enough, maybe after some field modification.

[Keklas Rekobah]

I was referring to "getting to the enemy population centers".  From orbit, this is not a problem, unless the native population has its own orbital and planetary defenses.  Even then, individual survival is far from certain (e.g., The Fall of Seren).

Dropping space-rocks from high orbit would be more economical than firing torpedoes, since cities are not likely to engage in evasive maneuvers while retreating -- so save the torps for more mobile enemy targets, like the Tempest.

Deinar might be more vulnerable in this respect, with lots of cometary debris in-system, as well as "Mepona's Ring" from which to draw deadfall ordnance (if the ring has any sizeable chunks).

[Tamri]

The problem is that "enemy settlements" are usually located on planets, which, in turn, are at least a couple of jumps from the front line, and usually even further.

Taking into account the local transport system, it is impossible to pass unnoticed by cordons and patrols, which means that in order to reach the population, you need to break through the front line with a superior military force. And if you have a superior military force in orbit, you absolutely do not need fancy decisions when an ordinary club is enough.

By the way, the use of asteroids as an alternative to onboard weapons is rather controversial. The profitability depends on the ratio of the fuel consumed and the reactor mass for the acceleration of the asteroid in comparison with the expenditure of the same funds for the banal shelling of onboard weapons.

For some reason, it seems to me that dropping several warheads of missiles with antimatter on the planet will be approximately adequate in terms of damage and much cheaper in terms of costs.

[Demarquis]

"Destroying the surface of a planet and all of its inhabitants is fairly trivial with the technology required to make a starship. You don't need "superweapons," especially something as dangerous and unpredictable as a biological weapon."

But that isn't the purpose of a bio-weapon. The object is to spread an infection far beyond the location of insertion, and far beyond the directly exposed population. Mass death is one viable outcome, but generally there is a trade off between short term lethality and the spread of contagion, so most bio-weapons aren't actually designed to kill, but to merely debilitate enough to significantly impact the enemy's military, medical and industrial capacity. Ideally, you want them to expend so many resourced fighting the pandemic that they are forced to the bargaining table.

This doesn't work out on Earth because all potential enemies are members of the same species, so preventing back-infection is rather challenging. You can easily end up doing more damage to your own society than the enemy's, depending on a wide range of unpredictable factors. But an alien opponent might be different--what debilitates an Umiak might be harmless to a Loroi (or a human for that matter).

[Tamri]

It is doubtful that a species that has gone into space, has come into contact with various species, both having compatible biochemistry, and not, and has reached the level of development of medicine, which allows the regeneration of entire organ systems in a short time directly on the patient: a) does not have the ability to detect which - or a foreign infection, b) has no idea about quarantine measures.

In fact, bioweapons, with strict adherence to a number of rules, are ineffective already on modern Earth, but under conditions of a species that has reached the stage of mestellar travel, it will be even orders of magnitude less effective.

[Cthulhu]

Actually, the Hierarchy has already fielded a super-weapon. Whatever they use to cloak their fleets from farsense has deprived the Loroi of their last decisive advantage. It has done more damage than a virus, some mega-cannon, orbital bombardments or anything else, for that matter, ever could.
The Umiak fleets outnumber the Union 5:1 or 4:1, if the Loroi cannot predict the enemy movements to intercept them with sufficient forces, then they are screwed. They don't have enough ships to garrison everything to a sufficient degree, unless they deploy all the reserve fleets for this duty. However, this will leave the Loroi without any ships for the next campaign, and they can't hope to win the war by defending.

[Arioch]

By "enemy population centers" I meant planets with significant populations on them. Once you're in orbit, even the smallest escort vessel can scour the surface of a planet with bombs made from taimat fuel, which can make the surface completely uninhabitable. You don't need to know or care where on the planet the cities are.

This assumes of course that you just want to make the planet uninhabitable, rather than capturing it for yourself. But that's going to be the case for most planet-killer "superweapons."

[Demarquis]

It is doubtful that a species that has gone into space, has come into contact with various species, both having compatible biochemistry, and not, and has reached the level of development of medicine, which allows the regeneration of entire organ systems in a short time directly on the patient: a) does not have the ability to detect which - or a foreign infection, b) has no idea about quarantine measures.

In fact, bioweapons, with strict adherence to a number of rules, are ineffective already on modern Earth, but under conditions of a species that has reached the stage of mestellar travel, it will be even orders of magnitude less effective.

[Demarquis]

It is doubtful that a species that has gone into space, has come into contact with various species, both having compatible biochemistry, and not, and has reached the level of development of medicine, which allows the regeneration of entire organ systems in a short time directly on the patient: a) does not have the ability to detect which - or a foreign infection, b) has no idea about quarantine measures.

In fact, bioweapons, with strict adherence to a number of rules, are ineffective already on modern Earth, but under conditions of a species that has reached the stage of mestellar travel, it will be even orders of magnitude less effective.

You're making a number of assertions there, my friend, none of which I remember being supported by cannon. It would be just as easy to assert that a species that has come into contact with various species, both having compatible biochemistry, and not, and has reached the level of development of medicine, which allows the regeneration of entire organ systems in a short time directly on the patient: a) would have found ways to infect such species with specifically engineered organisms, b) knows how to circumvent and undermine simple quarantine measures. It all depends on how the measure/counter measure arms race is playing out at any particular moment in time.

[Cthulhu]

The amount of destruction can also vary by the time a fleet can remain in orbit, or if it is equipped (or can be supplied with) dedicated planetary assault weapons. Given enough time, even normal ship weapons can devastate the surface, and specialized weaponry can do it much faster. The attackers can also choose between "clean", pinpoint strikes or a genocidal massacre at their leisure.
However, in the case where a counterattack is imminent, then taimat bombs will quickly irradiate anything they did not manage to destroy, albeit at a higher cost. The planet will be rather inhospitable for the next millennia or two. Or, if the planet is especially important, then ramming that aforementioned frigate right into it with maximal speed will truly ruin the biosphere in one shot.

[Tamri]

@Demarquis
I do not quite understand the essence of your question\statement, but this is only a listing of facts:

1) Contact with species with different biochemistry: Neridi and Barsam - Soia-group, as well as Loroi, Nissek, Arekka, Mannadi, Delrias, Golim, Pipolsid - conditional "Terrestrial" group. - Check.

2) High achievements in medicine - they pumped out Alex after severe hypoxia, probable contusion of variable severity, in addition, one hundred percent burdened with a concussion, while not having the slightest data on his physiology and biochemistry. Grown Leinnol's eye back. Again, Teidar implants connect directly to the brain. - Check.

In addition, I don’t remember exactly, but it was mentioned somewhere that Loro equipment is quite capable of full controlled regeneration.

Yes, bioweapons of the specified format can be made. But this is rather: 1) It is absolutely unprofitable and, in the realities of a frontal war, absolutely useless plus, again, the question of the delivery vehicle to the target, and 2) These are nanite technologies, which, according to Jim, none of the Bubble species owns (possibly Historians, but this is not certain).

[Arioch]

Biological weapons don't have a practical use case in a war situation, because to use them requires access to the target planet, and if you have that access there are much deadlier weapons that you can use. The only use case that I can think of is as a peacetime terror weapon, smuggled in via trade.

The more fundamental problems with biological weapons are the same problems that make them impractical today: they're hard to spread and harder to control, and can be mitigated by quarantine and medicine (the higher tech the better and faster countermeasures can be developed). Even if you tailor a pathogen to only affect a particular species, some members of the target species will likely have a natural immunity, and pathogens rapidly adapt and mutate; by the time you think it's safe to visit the target planet to colonize it, you're likely to be facing completely different pathogens. And that's ignoring the hazards inherent in the development of such pathogens.

[Bamax]

Biological weapons don't have a practical use case in a war situation, because to use them requires access to the target planet, and if you have that access there are much deadlier weapons that you can use. The only use case that I can think of is as a peacetime terror weapon, smuggled in via trade.

The more fundamental problems with biological weapons are the same problems that make them impractical today: they're hard to spread and harder to control, and can be mitigated by quarantine and medicine (the higher tech the better and faster countermeasures can be developed). Even if you tailor a pathogen to only affect a particular species, some members of the target species will likely have a natural immunity, and pathogens rapidly adapt and mutate; by the time you think it's safe to visit the target planet to colonize it, you're likely to be facing completely different pathogens. And that's ignoring the hazards inherent in the development of such pathogens.

Not directly related, but if you want a nonrocket first stage launch capability to add on to your Loroi plus the rest, space cannons are reality... but the politics are dicey enough to kill to have killed the project three times in the past... ending with literal death of the lead engineer.


Fascinating true life story:

https://ancientsolarsystem.blogspot.com ... s.html?m=1


Crewed vessels could not be launched, but plenty of nonmanned vessels with electronics hardened to survive thousands of gees could.

[TerrifyingKitten]

Star Blazers, Starship Troopers, and The Expanse all agree that orbital kinetic bombardment is the way to go. In the first two the rocks are derived from outside our own solar system.

There was even an RPG called Attack Vector Tactical that in their early advertising had a t-shirt with the calculations for playing solar system billiards and accelerating a rock to 5% of C to use as a kinetic kill weapon. IIRC it factored in lead-time, relativistic effects and everything. I played a demo game at GenCon a few years back.

"Give a person a relativistic rock and they will shatter a planet today. Teach them to do the math themselves and they shatter planets for the rest of their lives."