Designing Human Offshoots That Won't Wipe Out Humanity

[Bamax]

In one scifi work there was an all female warrior race that was engineered as an offshoot species. Amusingly enough, their human male creator (in the story no less) made them simply because he liked the idea of warrior women, so he decided to engineer a whole race of them.

Because he designed them to only give birth to females, they literally must coexist with mankind to continue to exist at all. Meaning they either must keep men around for mating or marry and intermix into human society itself.... which they do not do so that makes them resort to using or buying men as mere chattel for reproductive purposes.

That is an example of a symbiotic human offshoot species.

Whether the author realized it or not, there is a clever reason for making a race of amazon women who only give birth to females.... far beyond any trivial fetish.

It ensures that the newly created amazon warrior race will never exterminate humanity. Since doing that would make themselves go extinct.


The first concern of any species engineer is to NOT engineer a species of living things that will one day wipe out or conquer your entire species.

To that end there are various genetic ways of coding a lifeform so they won't present an intolerable threat to their creators.

In nature, it is well known that in the ocean several life forms die either shortly after giving birth or a few months after mating. With insects the process is often more brutal.... since life is more disposable the way they see it. Which is why insects lay so many eggs to compensate for the high losses of insect life.

Genetic coding similar to this, such as a shorter lifespan or one that ends a few months after sex, are brutal but effective ways of ensuring that a human offshoot is unlikely to defeat humanity one day.


The very idea or reasoning behind making a human offshoot race is to 'improve' upon the original. Stronger, faster, smarter, more beautiful, or something else we wish original humans were better at. Some way to make them uber or super, otherwise why bother? Which is why it behooves any human bio-engineer to make 'failsafes' to ensure uber human offshoots never wipe out the originals.

Apparently the Soia and many other ancient powerful races in scifi goofed up on this... although they had to for plot so that is a given.

Vulcans from Star Trek, while not an offshoot in the show, would and could fit an example of a human offshoot.

Yet the flaw is that they are not used... logically I think. A cold dispassionate race that valued logical reasoning above all would without doubt be more powerful than the Vulcans ever are in politics on the star trek shows. So often the solo vulcan on a starfleet vessel is presented as one of the smartest people on the ship. And you're telling me there is a whole planet of them and they are not one of the major players in the galaxy?

They are ALWAYS major players in the microcosm of starship life, so they should be as well in the macrocosm of interplanetary life.

[gaerzi]

Counterpoint:

[Keklas Rekobah]

In one scifi work there was an all female warrior race that was engineered as an offshoot species. Amusingly enough, their human male creator (in the story no less) made them simply because he liked the idea of warrior women, so he decided to engineer a whole race of them.

Because he designed them to only give birth to females, they literally must coexist with mankind to continue to exist at all. Meaning they either must keep men around for mating or marry and intermix into human society itself.... which they do not do so that makes them resort to using or buying men as mere chattel for reproductive purposes.

That is an example of a symbiotic human offshoot species.

Whether the author realized it or not, there is a clever reason for making a race of amazon women who only give birth to females.... far beyond any trivial fetish.

It ensures that the newly created amazon warrior race will never exterminate humanity. Since doing that would make themselves go extinct.

[...]

Are you assuming that there will still exist women who give birth to both male and female babies?

Because, if you do not, the second generation of the sub-species will be the last due to the lack of males.

[Sarlith]

Wiping Out The Originals is a harsh way of saying it. The reality in this situation is more like "They lived happily to the end of their days." All they have to do is not give birth to Originals, and the Originals will be "wiped out." But when you say it like that it sounds like they're going around shooting Old Style people.

If you are improving all of humanity, the entire goal is to wipe out the Originals. If you don't, you've failed to upgrade some of them. How is that fair? Not everyone gets the super new genes? Tyranny, I tell you! What's so great about Original Humanity that's worth keeping around, anyway?

Also, have to say...you're giving sentient creatures a hell of a lot more credit than I do when you say "It ensures that the newly created amazon warrior race will never exterminate humanity. Since doing that would make themselves go extinct." Individuals generally act in their own benefit, or the benefit of their immediate tribe, without thought of others, or even their own later generations. This is why we make biological weapons and have nuclear arms races, why we have climate change and polluted water, all sorts of ways we screw ourselves. I firmly believe we are in fact capable of screwing ourselves right to death.

But then, maybe that's something we can get rid of, with the new Super Humans. But of course, if you leave any Original Humans around...they'll make trouble...yeah best get rid of that.

[Bamax]

Ideally the second generation would find mates to reproduce with.

But in the long run one can say that the very existence of female only birthing Amazons would bring down human population the larger the amazon population became.

Which would gradually kill of the human race if guys kept on taking amazon wives over human ones.

They would have to be regulated or else live offworld in space or a colony world.

And they would need occcasional shipments of males to replace the old guard.

[CrimsonFALKE]

How about something catlike only with a prehensile tail thicker skin possibly lined with metal to increase radiation protection.

[Werra]

The only reason to design a new species is that you need people with an ability portfolio that your own species can't produce and which you do not want to get by genetic engineering of your own genome.

That means the new species will be better in some areas than your own. But also worse in others. The problem can be reduced to a balancing act between the usefulness of your creation and the evolutionary pressure it exerts.

Shrimp people that are tasked with mining the sea bed will not compete much with landbased organisms and can therefore be made to be highly beneficial at their task. If you design a species that thrives on suburban fast-food and excells at accounting, law and administrative work...your people might have a problem soon.

@gaerzi
But how do you ensure that the species you create shares the core values of your own? Will you give them human instincts?

[raistlin34]

One aspect you need to realize from evolution, even artificial, is that "better" is a very relative term.
In general, improving some aspects usually goes in detriment of others.

- Bigger? See square cube law.
- Stronger muscles? Also heavier, less agile body.
- More intelligent? The brain will need more energy and time for development.
- Long lived individuals? How extrict the requirements for reproduction must be to avoid overpopulation?

And so, and so. Before engineering a race, one must think about its environment and what niche/function is going to cover. Because it will never be the best at everything.

[gaerzi]

Ideally the second generation would find mates to reproduce with.

But in the long run one can say that the very existence of female only birthing Amazons would bring down human population the larger the amazon population became.

Which would gradually kill of the human race if guys kept on taking amazon wives over human ones.

They would have to be regulated or else live offworld in space or a colony world.

And they would need occcasional shipments of males to replace the old guard.

You're thinking way too hard about this particular fetish scenario, and missing the obvious solution which is of course more fetish: mandatory bigamy, men can only marry a space amazon if they also marry a regular human woman. Problem solved.

@gaerzi
But how do you ensure that the species you create shares the core values of your own? Will you give them human instincts?

Education. And if that's not enough, they apparently make cybernetic implants for that.

[Bamax]

Good points all. There are trade offs.

Yet there are ways to increase strength without raising muscle mass, but only for short periods. It requires supercharging the muscles with more energy than they normally display.

Ever heard of a mom high on adrenaline lifting a car to save her child?

So it is possible to display superhuman strength with normal muscle mass, but you will pay the cost in heat, body repair, and food required to display such on the regular.

Likely will sleep longer whenever they utilize superhuman strength.

[Cthulhu]

Let's see, if an advanced society would attempt to design a super-race, then what will they actually upgrade? I think that they would go for improvements that are not easily replaceable with technology. Like the Soia did with telepathy and Loroi, since this ability appears to be rare, but also cannot be copied with technology until the "end of the tech tree", so to speak. Or maybe super-intelligence, if this is even possible at all.

On the other hand, individual super-strength or great resilience are not particularly useful if combat is usually conducted with spaceships. A colt blaster is too much of an equalizer.

[Bamax]

Let's see, if an advanced society would attempt to design a super-race, then what will they actually upgrade? I think that they would go for improvements that are not easily replaceable with technology. Like the Soia did with telepathy and Loroi, since this ability appears to be rare, but also cannot be copied with technology until the "end of the tech tree", so to speak. Or maybe super-intelligence, if this is even possible at all.

On the other hand, individual super-strength or great resilience are not particularly useful if combat is usually conducted with spaceships. A colt blaster is too much of an equalizer.

Actually Chulthu, giving abilities that can be copied with technology is what nature already does!


Night vision: Several animals from birds to cats and dogs have this. Just about all of them. Comes at the price of somewhat blurred vision in bright daylight I presume, inasmuch cat eyes tend to shrink in the bright light but grow big in low light.

Camouflage: Naturally doing this nature has yet to be surpassed with technology. Painting mud and leafs on does not count.... since that is using 'tools'.

Artificial Light: Fireflies do it so a lifeform creating their own light is not out of the realm of physics.


What I would pick: Give a human offshoot the ability to have it's own natural flashlight!

A good backup for when the batteries die, and not too energy intensive either.

[Cthulhu]

Actually Chulthu, giving abilities that can be copied with technology is what nature already does!


Night vision: Several animals from birds to cats and dogs have this. Just about all of them. Comes at the price of somewhat blurred vision in bright daylight I presume, inasmuch cat eyes tend to shrink in the bright light but grow big in low light.

That's exactly what I mean, at such an advanced level of development, integrating a sensor package (IR, UV, Lidar, Radar, etc.) into combat armor shouldn't be a problem. On the contrary, biological sensors would just get in the way of such a suit. Leaving too many openings for the eyes/ears/additional sensory organs doesn't sound like a good idea.

Camouflage: Naturally doing this nature has yet to be surpassed with technology. Painting mud and leafs on does not count.... since that is using 'tools'.

Artificial Light: Fireflies do it so a lifeform creating their own light is not out of the realm of physics.


What I would pick: Give a human offshoot the ability to have it's own natural flashlight!

A good backup for when the batteries die, and not too energy intensive either.

Bioluminescence is quite difficult to produce, and needs a lot of energy, while being inferior to artificial light. It would be far easier to rely on technological sensors. Even if you could do that, it's such an insignificant advantage that going through the trouble of implementing it won't make any sense.

A super-race needs to be significantly better in some regard in order to be worth the effort. Otherwise, we could just do what we've been doing for millennia, develop better tools in order to compensate for our shortcomings. If the race itself is the tool, however, then it must not surpass us. Why not improve ourselves first?

[Werra]

Well, a living, breathing community offers some perks that technology just can't give you. In addition, technology needs continuous maintenance, educated users and quite a lot of resources.

A species not only maintains itself, it grows on its own and ideally contributes to your production base. A humanity that can create shrimp people to mine the oceans could likely get those resources with robots and diving equipment. But why not settle people there that turn these previously uninhabitatable zones into developed land?
Beyond mere resources, you might even get cultural or scientific benefits as well. Who could have predicted what profound boon discovering the Americas turned out to be for agriculture and worldwide cuisine?

You don't need to create a super species or one that aligns with your values (much). I'd even argue that the best way to ensure that you don't create your own extinction is to aim for the new people to be as different from your own as possible. This way you minimize conflict potential over space and resources and make sure that both species have something unique to offer.

Theoretically it's even possible to make your own Federation like this. (slugs can fuck off in their nebulas, tho Maybe that's what the Soia were going for and they came to the local bubble to make rheir own federation?

SpoilerShow

We all know what the Loroi are, but which species is blackjack?

[Bamax]

Animals have a host of advanced senses to compensate for a lack of inteligence and tool creation or use.

The more intelligent a species is and the more tools they can craft, the less extreme senses are needed since as you said tools can compensate.

However, it must be noted that obviously every scifi slien exists because their authors willed it as a work of art.


For example, an amazon warrior race is not needed at all today, but the wants of mankind are infinite, so you can expect that mankind would literally do ANTHING if they had the power to do so.

That is part of the reason and appeal of fiction in the first place.

To simulate the power of doing what we cannot without consequence.


A newly created species needs no reason or purpose to exist beyond their creator desiring them to exist.

After that whatever purpose the creature takes up depends wholly on nature versus nurture.

In the case of humans, nurture matters more than nature. Unlike animals whose nature is more fixed, humans can adapt based on what qualities are nurtured to a far greater degree.

If this were not true then many schools and political and religious organizations, whose existence rest on nurturing certain ideas and qualities while diminishing others, could not exist.

One's personal nature of course can resist the 'nurture' put upon them, but this is far more powerful in man than animals.

Since the most stubborn human is still more stubborn than a stubborn animal.... with the exception of insects... who are more stubborn than humanity by such a large margin that they have to compensate with high birth rates


Here is my logic on species creation by humans:

High intelligence: Should probably have low birthrate and long lifespan so as not to be a later threat.

Low intelligence: High birth rate but good for laborious work.

Superpowers beyond known physics: Depends on your goals. If you want to massively make them dominate all who lack superpowers then you make them both intelligent and with good reproduction.

Powers based on known physics: A species as a tool is still useful. Imagine people literally optimized from birth to fit a role in society?

Soldiers? Higher muscle mass, less sensitive to pain. Teachers? Better eyesight, greater compassion, patience and mercy than normal.

These are game changers. You see, nature versus nature is a battle that humans fight all the time.

But what if you could 'bake' in some if that 'nurture' instead of sending your kid to school or having to progessively train them to behave a certain way? What they just behaved a certain way because it was 'programmed' in?

I am not saying make robots.... but rather beings with free will with several useful instincts 'baked in' that they can nonetheless with training resist.

Just like trained dogs can resist barking or biting.

I guess the only personal drawback for such a race is that they will never feel the joy and wonder of learning how to do the things they were already programmed to do

[Demarquis]

If I had the power to create human offshoots, I would go for something better adapted for what we consider an extreme, hostile environment. The deep sea, deserts, Titan, that sort of thing. But make them poorly adapted to the type of environment we are already best adapted to--that way there is no competition over territory.

[Cthulhu]

For example, an amazon warrior race is not needed at all today, but the wants of mankind are infinite, so you can expect that mankind would literally do ANTHING if they had the power to do so.

That is part of the reason and appeal of fiction in the first place.

To simulate the power of doing what we cannot without consequence.

This is one of the biggest reasons why we, as a species, cannot advance past certain limitations. Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should, is a good summary of this problem. To design a completely new species is truly playing god, not because it attempts to mimic omnipotence, but due to it needing omniscience. The consequences will be otherwise utterly unpredictable. Employing such technologies without being morally and ethically mature would be the equivalent of giving kids guns or explosives as toys.

In fiction, however, few authors have the skills to tackle such complicated themes. Often, engineered sub-races are either the personifications of a single human character trait, or/and a plot device.

[Werra]

This is one of the biggest reasons why we, as a species, cannot advance past certain limitations. [...] To design a completely new species is truly playing god, not because it attempts to mimic omnipotence, but due to it needing omniscience. The consequences will be otherwise utterly unpredictable. Employing such technologies without being morally and ethically mature would be the equivalent of giving kids guns or explosives as toys.

It's not quite as bad. To design a species from scratch, you need to know what you are designing. While omniscience is unachievable, it's also not needed. The research institutions that can produce a species will also be capable to readjust it after its genesis. The same thing that happens in city planning, software development or any other design process.

Also, there is the ethical question of why you would need to, want to or should be able to decide every single detail of what another species is to be like.

[Bamax]

Yes, Werra is right.

Even in judo-christitan religion God does not always get what he wants or even predict the outcome of every event that occurs in the encyclopedia/record book that is the Bible. Changes his mind even on occasion based on things happening.


If many gods including popular ones are not omniscent, neither would an alien race engineering offshoots need to be either.

This is hyperbole, since we all know God/gods>scifi civilization.

It's an ultimate example.

[Demarquis]

Hey! It's the singularity problem, in another guise! Instead of a hyper-intelligent artificial intelligence, we have a self-aware sub-species of humanity. How do we know they won't turn on us? What safeguards could we build in? What are the steps on the path toward "friendly species"?

As I tell my computer nerd friends, we take this chance every time we raise children. And the solution is the same... If you want an intelligence to be friendly to you, be friendly to it. They tend to reciprocate.

As any parent can tell you, you ain't gettin' control.