Do Loroi feel death?

[Arent]

Since Loroi are telephatic, it seems reasonable that they should 'feel' when other creatures die. For example, when Cloud died, the other Loroi might have experienced part of it. The same might be true when an enemy/Umiak dies or even the small pet of a young Loroi child.

Contrary to Alex, most Loroi might therefore have literally "experienced" or at least "felt" death before. Some maybe even many times. This could have certain implications:

(1) Loroi might have unique philosopical views concerning death
(2) Loroi children experiencing death of a pet or a relative or Loroi experiencing massive death in war might be traumatized
(3) It might of course also happen that they become indifferent

[avatar576]

(1) I believe most Loroi have a very pragmatic view of death. Most do not believe in any kind of afterlife or reincarnation. If I had to guess, I think Beryl's thoughts on the subject on page 170 would probably be the most widely adopted view by Loroi: When you die, you simply cease to exist. And while they aren't Klingons -- where every day is a good day to die -- death is still the expected outcome of their profession. I imagine most, if not all Loroi warriors are comfortable with this. Otherwise, they'd have chosen civilian life.

(2) I'd guess probably no more or less so than humans experiencing or witnessing death. Keep in mind, sanzai and telepathy are as natural to the Loroi as any other sense. So a Loroi child witnessing death for the first time will be traumatized the same way a human child might be. Now if an adult human suddenly found himself imbued with Loroi telepathy, with all the same abilities as a Loroi, that's where the trauma might be greatest, because it would make the experience so much more personal, and vastly outside what humans consider a "normal" experience.

(3) Anyone will become desensitized to such things if exposed to them long enough. I have to think almost every Loroi warrior has witnessed the death of a comrade in this war. And some will have witnessed it as early as the diral phase of their training, as deaths do sometimes happen during this time. It will have a greater effect on younger, less experienced Loroi. Older ones will be used to it. Notice Beryl's reaction to Winter Tide being hit on page 79-80 Even though Winter Tide would have been out of telepathic range, she is still visibly affected. For someone like Fireblade, it probably wouldn't have even registered.

Regarding Cloud's death, I do believe the Loroi knew the exact moment Cloud died. Not just because they were aware of the plan and heard the shot, but they would have known the instant they could no longer sense Cloud's mental "signature." And as I understand it, while Loroi may not be able to fully "read minds," I think the present "state" of a particular signature can give indications of the mood or mindset of the Loroi or other telepathically detectable species to whom the signature belongs. Much the same way we humans can infer someone's emotional state from their facial expressions, posture and body language. But the exact sensations that a Loroi experiences would be difficult to explain, if not completely incomprehensible to humans. It would be like describing smells to someone with no nose.

[Arioch]

Normal ranged telepathy is a form of communication; the death of a nearby Loroi is like someone dying while you're in the middle of a conversation with them, which I imagine would be troubling for anyone. In a case like Cloud's, she would have been in communication with the other Loroi right up to the moment of her death, and then there was silence and the disappearance of her telepathic signature. Her sendings would be tinged with her feelings, but the other Loroi would not literally "experience her death" unless she was literally dying in their arms, and the touch link was active.

I think that when you are surrounded by death, it either breaks you or you become hardened to it. I'm reminded of some quotes from Band of Brothers regarding their hellish experiences in Bastogne:
Dick Winters: "I've seen death... I've seen my friends, my men being killed. It doesn't take too many days of that, and you change dramatically."
Don Malarkey: "You don't have a chance, when your friends go down, y'know... to really take care of them as you might... especially if you're in an attack and moving or whatever... I withstood it well, but I had a lot of trouble in later life, because those events would come back. You never forget 'em."

I also think that when you're born into such a violent world, you just accept death as normal, however unpleasant. Imagine our distant prehistoric ancestors scraping out an existence as hunter gatherers... death would have been just a part of their every day experience. I recall a discussion about why there didn't seem to be any historical record, prior to the industrial era, of soldiers dealing with post-traumatic stress. It might be that it was just not spoken of, or maybe it was that everyday life was so hard that the violence of battle just wasn't that traumatic in comparison.

[StarCruiser]

This is probably quite true.

Consider that in the not too distant past, children often died very young. Infant mortality was very high even in Europe and the early US/Canada. People often just accepted that this would happen and moved on as best as they could.

It would hurt but, they dealt with it...

[Cthulhu]

Normal ranged telepathy is a form of communication; the death of a nearby Loroi is like someone dying while you're in the middle of a conversation with them, which I imagine would be troubling for anyone. In a case like Cloud's, she would have been in communication with the other Loroi right up to the moment of her death, and then there was silence and the disappearance of her telepathic signature. Her sendings would be tinged with her feelings, but the other Loroi would not literally "experience her death" unless she was literally dying in their arms, and the touch link was active.

So, could there be some sort of telepathic outcry of pain in the moment of death? In Cloud's case, her death (and most likely the disintegration of her brain) was instant, but how about a mortal wound? Experiencing the death throes via the high-bandwidth telepathic link would be a pretty horrific experience. Maybe a mercy killing would be appropriate, if the sendings become too intense to block? Some people may snap just after hearing that.

[Demarquis]

I imagine the rest of the Loroi on the shuttle taking comfort from the fact that Cloud killed herself in the line of duty. They should all be so lucky...

[Arent]

Normal ranged telepathy is a form of communication; the death of a nearby Loroi is like someone dying while you're in the middle of a conversation with them, which I imagine would be troubling for anyone. In a case like Cloud's, she would have been in communication with the other Loroi right up to the moment of her death, and then there was silence and the disappearance of her telepathic signature. Her sendings would be tinged with her feelings, but the other Loroi would not literally "experience her death" unless she was literally dying in their arms, and the touch link was active.

Yes, that sounds like reasonable world building.

So I might assume that maybe the older Loroi, like Tempo, might have experienced a close relative or enemy literally dying in her arms. But the younger Loroi are as 'inexperienced' as Alex concerning death.

[Arioch]

So I might assume that maybe the older Loroi, like Tempo, might have experienced a close relative or enemy literally dying in her arms. But the younger Loroi are as 'inexperienced' as Alex concerning death.

Unless they were involved in ground combat or were aboard a ship that was very badly damaged, there's not a whole lot of "dying in your arms" in fleet combat.

In terms of comrades lost, the young pilots have tallies higher than almost anyone else in the crew, though in most of those cases, their comrades just didn't come back.

[Keklas Rekobah]

@ARIOCH: Was there no “ripple in the force” when Winter Tide foundered or when the Asimov Citadel was obliterated?

Or did the surviving Loroi just suddenly experience a drop in the background “noise” of their senzai?

[Bamax]

@ARIOCH: Was there no “ripple in the force” when Winter Tide foundered or when the Asimov Citadel was obliterated?

Or did the surviving Loroi just suddenly experience a drop in the background “noise” of their senzai?

Space is big and telepathy range for average Loroi is 100 meters if I remember correctly.

Add to that the fact that Azimol was mostly evacuated of all personnel anyway save for a few sacrificial personnel.

They would experience likely nothing or if close enough...probably shock followed by nothing.

Remember that Type A Taimat is basically a cold chemical propellant as potent as antimatter for energy.

What that means is when it goes off... there won't be much time to sanzai.... anything.

Too busy getting blown to bits/vaporized.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Arioch, please?

[Arioch]

@ARIOCH: Was there no “ripple in the force” when Winter Tide foundered or when the Asimov Citadel was obliterated?

Or did the surviving Loroi just suddenly experience a drop in the background “noise” of their senzai?

Ships in combat are normally much too far away for ordinary Loroi to interact telepathically between ships.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Thank you.

[Arent]

So I might assume that maybe the older Loroi, like Tempo, might have experienced a close relative or enemy literally dying in her arms. But the younger Loroi are as 'inexperienced' as Alex concerning death.

Unless they were involved in ground combat or were aboard a ship that was very badly damaged, there's not a whole lot of "dying in your arms" in fleet combat.

In terms of comrades lost, the young pilots have tallies higher than almost anyone else in the crew, though in most of those cases, their comrades just didn't come back.

Ah, ok. I thought that Tempo might have played the little mind trick with the Umiak repeatedly, both with Loroi, Umiak and other species. Maybe even undercover staged a few 'suicides'.

But I guess I was wrong.

[Demarquis]

Humans who repeatedly experience the death of close comrades suffer from certain well known emotional issues. The cast so far (Fireblade excepted) doesn't seem repressed enough for this, although it's hard to assess an alien psychology.

But if this speculation is true, then Cloud's suicide should affect the others emotionally at some point, although perhaps not until the action is over.

[Sweforce]

Humans who repeatedly experience the death of close comrades suffer from certain well known emotional issues. The cast so far (Fireblade excepted) doesn't seem repressed enough for this, although it's hard to assess an alien psychology.

But if this speculation is true, then Cloud's suicide should affect the others emotionally at some point, although perhaps not until the action is over.

A sacrifice necessary to convince an enemy. As a frighteningly concept this is effective espionage can cause a variation of this. If your know that the enemy are going to attack somewhere do just let them do it or would you try to warn people at the target location? Warn to often and the enemy may figure out that they has been infiltrated or their codes broken. During WW2 Japanese coded meesages was sometimes decoded and translated by the allies faster then the Japanese, lacking the decoding machinery could decode them themselves. The Germans where in a similar position. So you KNOW but you do not want the enemy to know that you know so you withhold your warnings.

Warcraft lore have a horrifying version of this at the genocidal siege of Shattrah where the demonic controlled orcs where hell bent on wiping out the draeni people once and for all. There was a tunnel leading out of the besieged city allowing people to escape. So a sacrifice had to be done where enough people had to stay behind to be slaughtered or the hunt would continue. For the illusion to work children had to be among them.

Like in the Warcraft lore example I also encountered this troupe in a Star Trek novel whith a conflict between non warp capable civilizations one group spend centuries in pursuit of their prey on sublight speed vessels aiming for their destruction. So a sacrifice had to be done and a colony was founded for the pursuers to catch up with and if successfully destroyed hopefully loose the trail of the main fleet.

[Demarquis]

The logic is clear enough, but that won't spare anyone the emotional consequences.

[Bamax]

I believe at least the response some Loroi would say to what you just said would be, "Warrior up! Are you still crying like some filthy civillian? We are warriors! They depend on us to survive, snap out of it already or else!"


Remember that all Loroi warriors.. no matter how cute (Spiral for sure) are basically... trained to kill, and in some cases are living weapons (Fireblade).

Death is part of the job, if they were too scared to take such a risk they would have accepted being a lowly virgin for life civillian.

[Demarquis]

One can say whatever one wants, but that doesn't change what happens on the inside. That isn't a choice--stress happens to you, and no amount of willpower will make it go away.

[Bamax]

One can say whatever one wants, but that doesn't change what happens on the inside. That isn't a choice--stress happens to you, and no amount of willpower will make it go away.

True... but it is worth remebering that unlike us... Loroi can share thoughts.


What I am saying is that a Loroi can arguably get far more emotional support to aid them than the average human.

How many have similar experiences and can directly relate?

The damage may never go away... but the recovery may be quicker at least.

No feeling... alone for Loroi.