"Earth should be about HERE..."

[Jeremy]

It's been established that the Loroi can't pry secrets from Jardin's mind. So far, he has to tell them things for them to stick.

As far as conversations have gone so far, its clear the Loroi have no idea what humans are, and more importantly WHERE they are.

He also witnessed a skirmish between the two superpowers and realized that humanity is hopelessly outclassed, outnumbered, outgunned.

The smart and logical move, the common sense move, would be to give no information. Not unless its absolutely crucial for the Loroi to know.

Earth's location is not knowledge the Loroi should know at this point in time. These are all basic things that someone who seemed to have been one of the Academy's smartest people should have worked out for himself.

Instead, Jardin, in front of two Loroi, decides to very casually do this:

"So this is where you encountered (and perhaps destroyed as far as I know) my ship. THIS is the route we came in. There's our relay ship along that route, by the way. Could you zoom out a bit? Thanks, much better. *traces with his finer* So we go through there... yeah.... there... ah, those are stars I know. So this is human territory. And Earth should be about there. *points* See?"

I don't care how pretty Beryl is to him, I don't care how friendly her and a few Loroi have been. He gave up crucial information that should have been kept secret as long as possible. Not drop that information in a casual conversation. To members of a race that has wiped out civilizations before.

What was he thinking?!

[Krulle]

His diplomatic task is to bring the Loroi back with a delegation to start peace talks.

Since he knows the rendezvous ship will not be there anymore, the next step are the Human stars.

Furthermore, he now also knows the Umiak are closer.
Better to have two parties squabble and potentially hold each other in check, than being overrun by one party alone.


But yes, your line of reasoning would be mine as well...
But an order from a superior about the mission objectives trumps your personal opinion.



In Earth's democracies, information is freely accessible to a very large degree. So people can learn about it.

In other Sci-Fi books I've read, most Humans cannot read starmaps, as they won't be trained to read them, only shp navigators and captains will be teached to read that, so that no random caught person will be able to tell ... And navigators and captains have specific last action orders. (As does bridge security crew has - regarding navigators and captains, and the navigating computer)

[Jeremy]

He's a military officer talking to a species that can potentially kill his own. He's not exchanging recipes.

Where is it stated he's supposed to outright tell the Loroi where the Earth is?

[dragoongfa]

He's a military officer talking to a species that can potentially kill his own. He's not exchanging recipes.

Where is it stated he's supposed to outright tell the Loroi where the Earth is?

It's part of his orders to initiate diplomatic relations and if possible bring forth the best possible ally and protector back with him.

Granted we don't have the exact wording of the orders themselves but the general gist is to make humanity as presentable as possible and seek the best terms possible. He is 'military' but at this point he is first and foremost a diplomat and he has to play with the hand he has been dealt.

[Gudo]

It's been established that the Loroi can't pry secrets from Jardin's mind. So far, he has to tell them things for them to stick.

I mean, has it really? Alex isn't convinced. We know that information can flow at least one way, maybe it can flow both ways and the Loroi aren't showing their hand.

Where is it stated he's supposed to outright tell the Loroi where the Earth is?

This was very contentious topic on the forums a while back, and there's some word-of-god hiding somewhere around here about it. If the humans decided the priority was to not be found, they would've stayed home. Instead, they opted for a diplomatic mission; make contact with the factions with the intent of entering into some sort of alliance with one of them. And you can't really do that if you can't share information about where you are.

There's some perks to doing things this way. Chiefly, this affords the humans the opportunity to play the two sides off each other which they couldn't do if they waited for one side to stumble across them first. Also, if all goes well, they can hope to secure some advanced technology and be afforded an opportunity to implement and practice new tactics before entering the war. And the biggest perk is that it lets the humans choose their ally instead of being stuck with the first great power that came along.

[Jeremy]

I mean, has it really? Alex isn't convinced. We know that information can flow at least one way, maybe it can flow both ways and the Loroi aren't showing their hand.

Doesn't mean you take a chance.

If the humans decided the priority was to not be found, they would've stayed home.

There's a difference between looking for information and outright leading an invasion force back to your home.

Instead, they opted for a diplomatic mission; make contact with the factions with the intent of entering into some sort of alliance with one of them. And you can't really do that if you can't share information about where you are.

Of course you can. You tell them that until you're sure of their intentions, you can't risk your home being discovered, as secrecy has so far been your best defense. If they understand, it's a good sign. If they don't, then they're being unreasonable.

Also, if all goes well...

And if it doesn't? "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst." With the future of the entire human race, you don't take chances. If you have to reveal you position, you do so after you're sure of the people you're talking to. The commander of the fleet, Stillstorm, is a rude pragmatist who seems at least dismissive of other races. I'd wait until I'm sure Stillstorm isn't the norm for commanders before offering critical information.

What Jardin did was extremely reckless and thoughtless at best. He let down his guard.

[Arioch]

Alex's unit was sent on a diplomatic mission to establish contact with the alien factions and negotiate a deal, if they could. It's very difficult to do that if you're not willing to tell the parties even basic information about who you represent.

If the primary goal was to keep Earth's location secret, the contact mission would never have been sent in the first place.

[Jeremy]

Then Earth's people are at best incredibly naive. Or at least its diplomatic corps. By giving up Earth's location, they outright put themselves at the mercy of the Loroi or Umiak if they choose to be belligerent.

[elizibar]

I think the Earth government realizes that if a blind, fleeing ship of refugees can stumble on them then an organized military force possibly pursuing those refugees can find them.

[raistlin34]

I think the Earth government realizes that if a blind, fleeing ship of refugees can stumble on them then an organized military force possibly pursuing those refugees can find them.

A good point. Again, Alex is just following orders and hoping for the best.

[QuakeIV]

Trying to keep your whole civilization a secret does seem like a fools errand.

[GeoModder]

Trying to keep your whole civilization a secret does seem like a fools errand.

Especially in a universe were every kind of electromagnetic activity crawls outwards of you at the speed of light...

[Jeremy]

Clearly my point of view on this in the minority. While he's at it, Jardin can just give out ship specs, detailed routes, whatever defense plans that they have, and do his best to ensure that Earth and its colonies are as vulnerable as possible. As a gesture of good faith.

Sarcasm aside, I've been following the story since its beginning. I love it, no question there. But there are things in there that I will not think. One of them is that Jardin's move was smart and okay. In my opinion, casually giving away you homeworld's position to a civilization that has wiped other civilizations is imprudent at best.

Yes, I'm aware that the Loroi and/or the Umiak would eventually stumble upon human space. But Beryl and Talon both notes that humanity is pretty far from at least Loroi space and that exploration and colonization efforts are not pointed in that direction. In fact, it makes me think that the Orgus fled in Earth's direction because it was AWAY from both superpowers. Jardin has shrunk Earth's discovery from potential years or decades to whatever time it would take for Loroi ships to get there.

I don't think it's a smart move as a military officer, as a diplomat, or just as a human. And that makes him relatable. Because heroes who make all the right calls tend to get boring.

That being said, love the comic. It's not because I disagree with one or two details in it that I don't.

[D-503]

Good evening, first post here. Not a native english speaker, but i hope i won´t be "lost in translation" too often...

Yes, I'm aware that the Loroi and/or the Umiak would eventually stumble upon human space.

Well, in my opinion they definitely will. When this story started, they were in the Naam-system, 217 ly away from earth, in the year 2160.
I don´t know if this is mentioned before, but that is only two years away from those electromagnetic bursts arriving that occured in 1945...
(1945+217=2162)
And those signatures (fission of heavy elements) differ greatly from the signatures of stars (fusion of light elements).
Since two technological advanced powers are at war with their intel and sensors high-revving, i very much doubt they´re going to miss this...

[Arioch]

I think that the long-range detectability of our diffuse electromagnetic emissions is often overstated. A large array of radio telescopes (like the planned SKA) spaced on opposite sides of the planet for maximum resolution might be able to detect our television/radio signals at a distance of about 100 light years... but only if the array was pointed directly at us and observed for an entire month. More powerful directional transmissions can be detected at much greater distances, but in both of these cases there is a requirement that one already knows exactly where to look or where to send the message. The aliens will have higher-tech, more sensitive detectors that will increase that range, but probably not by orders of magnitude. And the aliens don't have a quiet sky to observe in... they have not only their own local EM noise but also that from hundreds of inhabited star systems around them (the latter of which can't be easily filtered out by radio telescope interferometry).



There's an argument to be made (and it has been made many times) that it might have been a better course of action for Humanity to simply attempt to hide and wait out the war instead of sending a contact mission and revealing our existence. I think that there are reasonable arguments for either course of action -- and folks are welcome to disagree -- but it's probably worth pointing out that the alternate history in which Humanity hid in a hole doesn't make for a compelling adventure story. As the author I happen to know that the attempt to hide wouldn't have worked, but of course Humanity's leadership didn't have that information.

However, once the decision was made to make contact, attempting to establish diplomatic relations while somehow keeping your nation's location a secret doesn't make any sense to me. That's going to be pretty much the first question they ask, and if you refuse to answer it, I don't see negotiations going much farther than that.

[Bamax]

I think that the long-range detectability of our diffuse electromagnetic emissions is often overstated. A large array of radio telescopes (like the planned SKA) spaced on opposite sides of the planet for maximum resolution might be able to detect our television/radio signals at a distance of about 100 light years... but only if the array was pointed directly at us and observed for an entire month. More powerful directional transmissions can be detected at much greater distances, but in both of these cases there is a requirement that one already knows exactly where to look or where to send the message. The aliens will have higher-tech, more sensitive detectors that will increase that range, but probably not by orders of magnitude. And the aliens don't have a quiet sky to observe in... they have not only their own local EM noise but also that from hundreds of inhabited star systems around them (the latter of which can't be easily filtered out by radio telescope interferometry).

There's an argument to be made (and it has been made many times) that it might have been a better course of action for Humanity to simply attempt to hide and wait out the war instead of sending a contact mission and revealing our existence. I think that there are reasonable arguments for either course of action -- and folks are welcome to disagree -- but it's probably worth pointing out that the alternate history in which Humanity hid in a hole doesn't make for a compelling adventure story. As the author I happen to know that the attempt to hide wouldn't have worked, but of course Humanity's leadership didn't have that information.

However, once the decision was made to make contact, attempting to establish diplomatic relations while somehow keeping your nation's location a secret doesn't make any sense to me. That's going to be pretty much the first question they ask, and if you refuse to answer it, I don't see negotiations going much farther than that.

I think somehow humanity is key to the Loroi winning... or barring that, helping a truce be made or something (though I find a truce improbable given how Umiak are literally born for war).

In other words.... it's kind of like the Death March of Kohr Arr in Star Control 2. You can do nothing or be unproductive but soon your time will run out as will your places to hide.

I know... since without a game walkthrough I saw the Kohr Ahh wipe out planet after planet to the point that I had no system to hide since everywhere I warped to they were already there and would chase me. Eventually the only place left to hide was Eartt system and guess who shows up?

I even tried to visit Earth but the enemy fleet surrounding it intercepted me and in the quick space battle that followed blew me to bits.

[QuakeIV]

I guess personally I'm curious to see if Humanity will have any real role to play in the story, or if it pretty much only exists so we can have people explain obvious crap to Jardin for benefit of the audience (and maybe as a bit of a more relatable character than the weird aliens). Could also add some tension as to like 'oh no will they be wiped out' our et cetera I suppose (at the very least this provides some motivation to Jardin as a character).

e: Yeah I agree the odds of our current radio signals actually being detected are really low, afaik the interaction of the suns magnetic field with the various interstellar crap actually produces more than enough interference to make it almost impossible to detect. We don't have that powerful of transmitters even now, unless we really went out of our way.

[D-503]

I think that the long-range detectability of our diffuse electromagnetic emissions is often overstated. A large array of radio telescopes (like the planned SKA) spaced on opposite sides of the planet for maximum resolution might be able to detect our television/radio signals at a distance of about 100 light years... but only if the array was pointed directly at us and observed for an entire month. More powerful directional transmissions can be detected at much greater distances, but in both of these cases there is a requirement that one already knows exactly where to look or where to send the message. The aliens will have higher-tech, more sensitive detectors that will increase that range, but probably not by orders of magnitude.

Well, a nuke is a "bit" different to tv/radio signals...
And the key, i think, is automation technology. 140 years from now those things will have made incredible progress. Even more those sensor arrays from both loroi and umiak than our own - and one or two magnitudes of more resolution or sensitivity should be sufficient for the task (100ly --> 1000ly; 1000ly > 217ly; hope you get my point).

I ask bluntly: Have you thought about that when you were working out your story back then? Because it is quite a coincidence at least that you set a place and time like that?
And even if not, this still does not disturb the story - quite the opposite, another point why "hiding" would not work.

And the aliens don't have a quiet sky to observe in... they have not only their own local EM noise but also that from hundreds of inhabited star systems around them (the latter of which can't be easily filtered out by radio telescope interferometry).

Yes, but as Beryl and Talon pointed out on page 118, we´re in the "empty quarter", no?

Need to watch that from home; internet´s too slow here for youtube (german army barracks, ex nike hercules base, currently under reconstruction...)

There's an argument to be made (and it has been made many times) that it might have been a better course of action for Humanity to simply attempt to hide and wait out the war instead of sending a contact mission and revealing our existence. I think that there are reasonable arguments for either course of action -- and folks are welcome to disagree -- but it's probably worth pointing out that the alternate history in which Humanity hid in a hole doesn't make for a compelling adventure story. As the author I happen to know that the attempt to hide wouldn't have worked, but of course Humanity's leadership didn't have that information.

However, once the decision was made to make contact, attempting to establish diplomatic relations while somehow keeping your nation's location a secret doesn't make any sense to me. That's going to be pretty much the first question they ask, and if you refuse to answer it, I don't see negotiations going much farther than that.

I´m 100% d´accord and perfectly fine with the story and with Alex´ actions.
I myself would opt for the Loroi, there´s more to gain for us than with the Umiak.
Also they need to side with us - because the other way round would be (terminally) disastrous to them.
So bottom line, Loroi and us would be a good match.

[Arioch]

Well, a nuke is a "bit" different to tv/radio signals...

It's a stronger pulse, but it's still omnidirectional rather than focused, and it's momentary, so you don't benefit from longer observation times. I'm not going to spend the time to work out the math, but I don't think that any of the nuclear explosions we've lit off so far (especially the piddly kiloton detonations in 1945) would be detectable by the Loroi or Umiak at 200+ light years, especially if they weren't specifically looking for it.

I don't think automation helps you much here... we're talking about sensor arrays with the diameter of a planet that have to be physically pointed at the target.

I ask bluntly: Have you thought about that when you were working out your story back then? Because it is quite a coincidence at least that you set a place and time like that?

The light from the Trinity test will cross Naam around 2162, but Naam isn't an inhabited system; there's no one there to detect it. So no, there's no significance to that number.

And the aliens don't have a quiet sky to observe in... they have not only their own local EM noise but also that from hundreds of inhabited star systems around them (the latter of which can't be easily filtered out by radio telescope interferometry).

Yes, but as Beryl and Talon pointed out on page 118, we´re in the "empty quarter", no?

Yes, but there's likely to be friendly system(s) between the detector and us unless the detector just happens to be on the frontier closest to us. And it also means that they have no particular reason to direct detectors toward a region of space that they believe to be empty. If the Loroi or Umiak (or anyone else) were really curious about whether there are unknown aliens hiding in a particular area, they could just send ships to explore the area. I don't think SETI observation programs are something they would spend a lot of resources on.

[QuakeIV]

Not that nuclear weapons are a small event per se, but i think there is a failure to understand how far a lightyear is here (or maybe just erroneous back of the envelope sensor sensitivity calculations)