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Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:49 am
by raistlin34
Moon Moth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:04 am
Bamax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:16 am
Complements to Arioch... you did good there with the alien way of speech...
Yes.
114 is one of my favourite pages, both for the dialogue and the art. It wouldn't work nearly as well if Talon spoke standard English.
I know this has been discussed before, but why was Beryl bothered by the handshake?
Did she fear a faux pas from Talon? To prevent Alex from influencing other Loroi?
Or just wished to remain Alex's sole "friendly" Loroi and thus the only one whom he would trust with his secrets?
As far we know Tempo could have chosen Beryl as a spy of a sort, her "cuteness" a deliberate persona for a pliable male in an extremely complicated situation.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 3:44 pm
by Werra
Demarquis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 3:33 am
I once wrote a novella featuring a Japanese female protagonist, and boy was it hard to satisfy the beta readers.
That's what you get for shipping the unedited manuscript straight to the target demographic for novellas with a Japanese female protagonist.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:09 pm
by Demarquis
There is no way to know for sure, but I think Beryl was simply jealous.
I like how everyone thinks Tempo is engaged in some sort of deeply woven plot. What did she do to earn so much reader distrust? I mean, poor girl is probably just thinking "What else could *possibly* go wrong with this damn mission?" : )
"That's what you get for shipping the unedited manuscript straight to the target demographic for novellas with a Japanese female protagonist."
Luckily for me, my beta readers were more diverse than that.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:30 pm
by Arioch
Casual touching among Loroi, especially between a male and female, is kind of a restricted thing... and the previous time Alex was touched by a Loroi was when he was being roughly interrogated. What possible reason could Beryl have to be concerned about unexpectedly finding the pilot touching her alien charge who she promised to take good care of?
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:28 pm
by Demarquis
Cooties.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:14 pm
by QuakeIV
Many such cases.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:55 pm
by Moon Moth
Demarquis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:09 pm
There is no way to know for sure, but I think Beryl was simply jealous.
I think of it as Captain Kirk rescuing an alien space babe, who says "Hi there, my name is Alexandra but you can call me Lexxy, rhymes with sexy", and then reaches out to grab Kirk's butt, claiming that it's a traditional greeting on her world. Kirk of course does the diplomatic thing and reciprocates, with an amused smile and that humorous musical cue in the background. The buttshake lingers just a moment too long, with just a bit too much direct eye contact to be plausibly deniable. And then Spock walks in.
(I base the first part on how Talon misunderstands Alex's request to use his original rank as a direct offer to be on a first-name basis, or the Loroi equivalent. "Ensign" sounds a lot like "enzin", which means "guardian", which is presumably how Alex translated his given name.)
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:20 am
by QuakeIV
Bit on the lurid side but tbh I overall agree with you it does have that going on a bit.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2023 2:24 pm
by Demarquis
Except Spock never sat in Kirk's lap.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 8:21 am
by Said2k
Arioch wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:54 am
Bamax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:16 am
Loroi speech is so amusing since the word choice is a bit odd and basic... which is no doubt reflects their heavy reliance on telepathy.
In all my life I have never heard any human I have ever spoken with use the term "That is not even the most fortunate part" with regard to themselves or those they were with. I have heard humans say "That's not even the best part!"
Complements to Arioch... you did good there with the alien way of speech... a far cry from the embarassing Picard series where even the Romulans curse and use F-bomb swear words.
Thanks. One of the (many) problems with the "lazy" writing so common in today's mainstream media is that all the characters speak the same way, and that they use colloquial language even if the setting is exotic. Dialogue is such an important tool both for characterization and immersion.
I think part of it is just laziness, but I think they may also be chasing the goal of making media "more accessible to 'modern audiences.'" Which is one of the other chief problems with today's shows.
Wouldn't Human speech also be a bit different considering this is hundreds of years into the future? I don't think anyone speaks the same way we did in the 19th or 20th century, not just in English but likely every language from Hindi to Arabic to Chinese. Alex might have some sort of accent compared to modern day.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 9:30 am
by SVlad
Probably it's just kind of
translation convention?
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 9:34 am
by QuakeIV
I kindof doubt its going to diverge that much more, you are already seeing a lot of regional dialects being obliterated due to the pervasiveness of communication across huge areas at this point.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 3:14 pm
by Arioch
Said2k wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 8:21 am
Wouldn't Human speech also be a bit different considering this is hundreds of years into the future? I don't think anyone speaks the same way we did in the 19th or 20th century, not just in English but likely every language from Hindi to Arabic to Chinese. Alex might have some sort of accent compared to modern day.
Sure, realistically languages drift over time (though I think modern media forms slow that drift... though that probably remains to be proven). That can be a great tool for highlighting how human culture has changed over time... when, as in
A Clockwork Orange, that's the subject of the story. However, if the focus of the story is on alien cultures and how they're different from human culture, then adding a lot of detail about how human culture has changed can be counter-productive, and in particular if you have the character translating the alien language speak in language which is unfamiliar to the reader, that's just confusing. It would be hard to know whether Talon's unusual speech patterns are coming from Talon or Alex.
For the purposes of this story, future human culture is not considered an "exotic setting."
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 11:34 pm
by RedDwarfIV
Arioch wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 3:14 pm
Said2k wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 8:21 am
Wouldn't Human speech also be a bit different considering this is hundreds of years into the future? I don't think anyone speaks the same way we did in the 19th or 20th century, not just in English but likely every language from Hindi to Arabic to Chinese. Alex might have some sort of accent compared to modern day.
Sure, realistically languages drift over time (though I think modern media forms slow that drift... though that probably remains to be proven). That can be a great tool for highlighting how human culture has changed over time... when, as in
A Clockwork Orange, that's the subject of the story. However, if the focus of the story is on alien cultures and how they're different from human culture, then adding a lot of detail about how human culture has changed can be counter-productive, and in particular if you have the character translating the alien language speak in language which is unfamiliar to the reader, that's just confusing. It would be hard to know whether Talon's unusual speech patterns are coming from Talon or Alex.
For the purposes of this story, future human culture is not considered an "exotic setting."
Reminds me of the first part of
We Are Legion, We Are Bob where it's made clear that FAITH (the future USA) does speak a new dialect of English, but because it's barely comprehensible to people from the 21st century, Bob has to run it through a translator. Also, Dr Landers (the cyberneticist who trains AI replicants) has had speech training in order to be able to speak 21st century English.
As a result, we only get a scarce few sentences of the future speech, presumably to preserve the author's sanity. We can't all be Tolkein.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:12 pm
by Demarquis
"In all my life I have never heard any human I have ever spoken with use the term "That is not even the most fortunate part" with regard to themselves or those they were with. I have heard humans say "That's not even the best part!"
I've spoken something close to this, on occasion. I had to train myself out of it.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 4:41 pm
by D-503
Demarquis wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:12 pm
"In all my life I have never heard any human I have ever spoken with use the term "That is not even the most fortunate part" with regard to themselves or those they were with. I have heard humans say "That's not even the best part!"
I think it´s a cool thing Arioch puts "broken english" like this into the story; that adds well to the alien background of this story!
I instantly remember Spiral on p166 saying "not so true" when Talon said "...Spiral has bad spoken Trade (language) also" - "not so true" would be the literal translation of eg german "(gar) nicht wahr", reflecting the different syntax between two different languages. I guess the correct english form would have been "Not true at all."
By syntax you can often tell if someone is pretenting to be a native english speaker when actually he isn´t, even if the pronunciation sounds convincing.
Demarquis wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:12 pm
I've spoken something close to this, on occasion.
I had to train myself out of it.
This. It is really hard to "iron out" syntax; it is deeply engraved into our brains from very early on.
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 4:48 pm
by Demarquis
Brother, you have no idea. The hardest part was becoming aware that I was doing it. Add the fact that I was training myself out of several other counter-productive behaviors at the same time...
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 6:35 pm
by D-503
Demarquis wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 4:48 pm
Brother, you have no idea. The hardest part was becoming aware that I was doing it. Add the fact that I was training myself out of several other counter-productive behaviors at the same time...
Oh, i DO know. Because I failed in every discipline, i guess...
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:32 pm
by sunphoenix
Not to put too fine a point on this, as I understand the dedication an artist has to seeing their vision completed to their satisfaction to excellence I and many others are curious if there is any ETA on a new completed page? I completely agree this is a hobby and proceeds at the rate of convenience... but some hint as to an estimate on new completed pages would be nice.
We all await new surprises with all eagerness!
Re: Page 223: Most Fortunate!
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:46 pm
by GeoModder
sunphoenix wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:32 pm
We all await new surprises with all eagerness!
The more announcements, the less surprise.