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Post page 83
So let's discuss!

I found the chatter a bit strange and unexpected. Up until now I expected Loroi to be all serious so it was a bit shocking to see them making wages.

As always great art.

I also learned a new word today: Profligacy.


Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:47 am
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Post Re: page 83
Looks like the Umiak ship was firing it's main weapons until the end. Is it using its primaries as last-ditch PD or trying to get a last few hits on the Loroi?

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Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:05 am
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Post Re: page 83
Yeah I agree! Their flippancy adds a whole new aspect to the loroi psychology... makes them more refreshingly human-like. They have been so monolithicly serious and strict before now.. I like it! :)

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Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:37 am
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Post Re: page 83
sanzai thingy, gives them the ability to talk without the pesky human hearing....or for that matter any official record.


Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:01 am
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Post Re: page 83
hi hi

I seems that once everyloroi knew that the immediate danger was past, they didn't feel it necessary to maintain strict radio protocol anymore.

Of course, Stillstorm said that this wasn't the Umaik's main force which leads me to something of a realization about a possible Umiak tactic. Since a number of the Umiak ships passed through the Loroi lines without being destroyed, the Loroi may in fact now be surrounded.

Also, I'd just like to say for the record that panels 1 and 2 -with the fleeing Umiak ships- are absolutely awesome. The way the frame is tilted to establish their weapons fire (and thus the target) on the plane of orientation in panel 1 was an especially great touch. :)


Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:04 am
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Post Re: page 83
AndrejaKo wrote:
I found the chatter a bit strange and unexpected.

Heh. Just listen to military radio... :mrgreen:

AndrejaKo wrote:
Up until now I expected Loroi to be all serious so it was a bit shocking to see them making wages.

Well, the Loroi are a competitive society from the cradle on, and to such a competitive environment belongs wages. "I bet you can´t jump over that gap!" - "Pah, what´s in?" ...and then later in space wages upon who´s destroying more enemy ships. Stringent to me.
Maybe a compensation for the absence of medals (so far).

AndrejaKo wrote:
I also learned a new word today: Profligacy.

Me too. :D



And for the Blisters: Nice. Why don´t they make/use more of them?

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Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:29 am
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Post Re: page 83
TheUnforsaken wrote:
Looks like the Umiak ship was firing it's main weapons until the end. Is it using its primaries as last-ditch PD or trying to get a last few hits on the Loroi?

Maybe it was panic shooting. If you look cloud behind the ship, it looks like the ship turned and tried to run away. Or it was just a cloud in bad place. :|

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Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:36 am
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Post Re: page 83
hi hi

I get the impression that Ashrain used those blisters at a very opportune time, and that in other instances they're maybe not as effective. (and out of the four of them, they apparently only took out two Umiak ships.) I also take the profligacy remark to mean that Moonglow had some of her own but was not as shrewd in their use, and thus did not get as many kills with them.


Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:36 am
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Post Re: page 83
Even among very loose and liberal humans, such actions by CAPTAINS in the middle of a battle would be unheard of.

It just feels...wrong.


Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:42 am
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Post Re: page 83
AndrejaKo wrote:
I also learned a new word today: Profligacy.


next time your mama tell you that you dont learn anything from comic point this out :)

Trantor wrote:
And for the Blisters: Nice. Why don´t they make/use more of them?


Cost and rarity

icekatze wrote:
I get the impression that Ashrain used those blisters at a very opportune time, and that in other instances they're maybe not as effective.


Actually i think one of the 4 have been destroyed before they could be deployed. look at the 5th panel of page 82. The beam seem to have hit something and we only see 3 blister. could it be that what the beam hit is the 4th blister?


Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:56 am
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Post Re: page 83
TrashMan wrote:
Even among very loose and liberal humans, such actions by CAPTAINS in the middle of a battle would be unheard of.

It just feels...wrong.


maybe, me I think such banter is a great way to easy some of the tension and like icekatze said the worste of the battle seems to have passed. the look on Ashrain's face is priceless by the way, great job.

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Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:05 pm
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Post Re: page 83
hi hi

For the Loroi, who are not accustomed to tact, etiquette or not speaking one's mind, I imagine that many verbal formalities might actually be more unsettling than that sort of banter.


Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:46 pm
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Post Re: page 83
manticore7 wrote:
TrashMan wrote:
Even among very loose and liberal humans, such actions by CAPTAINS in the middle of a battle would be unheard of.

maybe, me I think such banter is a great way to easy some of the tension and like icekatze said the worste of the battle seems to have passed.

Hard work needs harder humour.

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Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:43 pm
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Post Re: page 83
bunnyboy wrote:
manticore7 wrote:
TrashMan wrote:
Even among very loose and liberal humans, such actions by CAPTAINS in the middle of a battle would be unheard of.

maybe, me I think such banter is a great way to easy some of the tension and like icekatze said the worste of the battle seems to have passed.

Hard work needs harder humour.


Agreed, but really a bet on how many to kill while your facing death . . . maybe I'll never understand that facet of the military life :(

but I'm wondering about the Umiak plan, their right in position to get the Bell ( little red spot). so is stillstorm right and their going to tow the bell away.

I'm asking because tactics aren't be forte. I figured the only reason to break the line is to A) lure the loroi into another ambush or B) another wave is coming soon :|

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Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:58 am
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Post Re: page 83
NOMAD wrote:
but I'm wondering about the Umiak plan, their right in position to get the Bell ( little red spot). so is stillstorm right and their going to tow the bell away.

I'm asking because tactics aren't be forte. I figured the only reason to break the line is to A) lure the loroi into another ambush or B) another wave is coming soon :|


Don't forget this is simply a snapshot of events.

If I'm reading the display right the Umiak are surrounded on four sides by Loroi formations, though I can't see what's left of the upper-most Loroi formation: looking at the display at the top of pg. 81 it would have borne the brunt of the Umiak advance.

Back to pg. 83, the large yellow symbol appears to indicate either the Umiak's current vector or their axis of advance (indicating possible follow-up units out of frame). I'm inclined to think its their vector, and since attempting to stop while the Loroi surround them would be a quick way to die, I'd say they will continue on. So while the remains of the Bell are in that instant surrounded by Umiak units I doubt they can do anything with it.

In all probability there are fresh Umiak units moving to engage...whether they can get there in time to prevent the Loroi from destroying what's left of the Bell and bugging out I can't say.

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Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:02 am
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Post Re: page 83
Great paper and I agree seeing the loroi making a bet was strange at first but if you think about how the loroi are it males sense. it my be frowned on for a high ranking human officer to do this you know t goes on behind closed doors.

But the loroi don't hide things so I can see them doing it out in the open.


NOMAD wrote:
but I'm wondering about the Umiak plan, their right in position to get the Bell ( little red spot). so is stillstorm right and their going to tow the bell away.

I'm asking because tactics aren't be forte. I figured the only reason to break the line is to A) lure the loroi into another ambush or B) another wave is coming soon :|


I don't think the bell has anything to do with this attack, I wouldn't be surpize if they pass right by with out giving the bell another look. honestly the only reason the the bell is in the way is because the loroi were centered around it and the Umiak were trying to brake up the loroi formation.

as it stands there is no logical reason for anyone but the loroi to be interested in the Bell unless there is some secret third party hiding in the background.

these are front line troops that have no FLT communications, it would take months for information to reach them and the bell has only been on its mission for 60 day at most. so the Umiak shouldn't have any clue of the humans or the bell even if any of the other scout ships have made contact else where. and if the Bell was just in the wrong place at the wrong time again the Umiak have no interest in it.

it doesn't really matter either way the bell time left is counted in minutes, the loroi are going to leave is there is a second wave or not and there not going to leave the bell behind.


Last edited by dex drako on Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:55 am
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Post Re: page 83
So... we have 2 group commanders who position their ships (or even their whole group?) for a pursuit on an enemy force that has at least a 20 minute acceleration headstart? Isn't that a bit pointless?
Not to mention that afaik Stillstorm hasn't given a command to prepare for a pursuit.

Are we looking at hot-tempered CO's eager to keep their wager competitive? Or have group commanders that much independent decision power over their ships? At least, on page 73, panel 1, Stillstorm told them to "hold this position".

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Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:37 pm
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Post Re: page 83
Which makes me wonder just kind of relationship Stillstorm has with her subordinates.


Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:02 pm
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Post Re: page 83
GeoModder wrote:
So... we have 2 group commanders who position their ships (or even their whole group?) for a pursuit on an enemy force that has at least a 20 minute acceleration headstart? Isn't that a bit pointless?

As you point out, the Umiak force has built up substantial momentum that will carry them well past the Loroi formation and would take some 15 minutes or so to cancel out. The Umiak commander can choose to brake for another pass, or continue accelerating away from the Loroi to disengage. In either case, the Loroi cruisers will want to "pursue" them for a short distance to extend the amount of time that the Umiak are in pulse cannon range, even they can't "catch" them; these are just free shots for the Loroi to which the Umiak can't respond. In the case that the Umiak are braking to renew the engagement (as the Loroi expect them to do), the pursuit can indeed catch them.

As to the issue of command procedure, page 84 should clear this up somewhat, but we can expect that these are veteran commanders who have done this many times before, and have standing orders and regular procedures for such an engagement; Stillstorm only needs to tell them what is different for this particular engagement. The fact that they are making bets on the outcome is meant to convey how ordinary such engagements are for them.

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Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:24 pm
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Post Re: page 83
Also we don't know exactly what they are betting on, they could be betting on the outcome of this particular "joust", percentage or number of kills from this particular group of Umiak ships etc etc, while routine perhaps it's not clear how far in the future their bet will end.
-O


Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:38 pm
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Post Re: page 83
whenever someone is losing a bet its always because someone else is "cheating". I guess lame excuses are one of those universal things. next to swedish meatballs.

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Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:00 pm
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Post Re: page 83
Ah this reminded me of one of my favorite passages (abridged of course)


Men are born for games, nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work. He knows too that the worth or merit of a game is not inherent in the game itself but rather in the value of that which is put at hazard. Games of chance require a wager to have meaning at all. Games of sport involve the skill and strength of the opponents and the humiliation of defeat and the pride of victory are in themselves sufficient stake because they adhere in the worth of the principles and define them.


I reckon whatever they've waged is ultimately secondary to the wage of their possible deaths which considering their conditions is quite possible and to which they're undoubtedly aware of, such things often being made out of spite.


Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:37 pm
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Post Re: page 83
Arioch wrote:
As to the issue of command procedure, page 84 should clear this up somewhat, but we can expect that these are veteran commanders who have done this many times before, and have standing orders and regular procedures for such an engagement; Stillstorm only needs to tell them what is different for this particular engagement. The fact that they are making bets on the outcome is meant to convey how ordinary such engagements are for them.
Makes sense. I of all people should have understood that, but thanks for explaining.


Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:58 pm
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Post Re: page 83
Arioch wrote:

As to the issue of command procedure, page 84 should clear this up somewhat, but we can expect that these are veteran commanders who have done this many times before, and have standing orders and regular procedures for such an engagement; Stillstorm only needs to tell them what is different for this particular engagement. The fact that they are making bets on the outcome is meant to convey how ordinary such engagements are for them.


why do i never see the obvious answers . . . :(

thx dex and theunforsanken for the replies, I didn't think about the velocities involved ( still thinking in classic naval terms Ie water)

I'm looking forward to how this battle is going to end . . . still got a bad feeling their another Umiak fleet near by.

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Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:41 pm
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Post Re: page 83
Arioch already stated as much, but I'll rephrase and add a little on because I'm not sure we've covered this in the forum V2.

Combat in outsider is sort of interesting. In order to actually close you need a difference in velocity, but at the distances and accelerations in question the resulting velocity takes both quite some time to achieve and quite some time to undo. As a result unless there are positions that one needs to defend or limitations on where one needs to go (read jump out of the system after just jumping in) both sides need to decide to engage for there to be combat as either side can independently decide to not engage and can usually accomplish that task. Note that this is slightly less true for the Loroi as they can outrun the Umiak (although the Umiak have more staying power due to more efficient engines).
The result is that combat tends to be a number of jousts where there is a velocity differential that causes one fleet to pass by the other. This differential is canceled out by one or both parties (depending of course on any specific limitations on movement and noting the Loroi have more ability to maintain or disengage from combat) and either combat ensues for another joust or they disengage. At some point it may happen that the fleets are within firing range and are at similar velocities, at which time obviously combat would change significantly as there would be no "breaks" like jousting would provide and disengaging or escaping would be more difficult, especially for the fleet with less acceleration (read Umiak)

-O


Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:04 am
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