psychological warefare on the Umiak.

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manticore7
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psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by manticore7 »

You can't use death threats because they are indoctrinated not to look to their own safety. you can't tell them that the battle is hopeless because they will fight on anyway, so how do you mess with a Umiaks head in warfare? We have seen some variation in the form of Kikitik-27 but I imagine it is an exception rather than a rule.
"Worlds governed by artificial intelligence often learned a hard lesson, Logic doesn't care"
Andromeda season 2 episode 6 All too Human

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Grayhome
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Grayhome »

Why hello there. We're called humans and we've got an amazingly awesome culture that allows you free cake. You seem to be slaving away under your fascist slave-government which is built out of ungodly pain and incomprehensible self inflicted agony. Want to switch sides? We pay very well... Also those so called "leaders" that whisper sweet nothings into your ear that you should be loyal and hard working? They don't go to bed starving every night like you and your ten children that all live together in your one room hole-in-the-wall-you-call-a-house do, they live fat and happy supping on the collective sorrow of a dozen slave races. I don't think they have your best interests at heart, maybe you should kill them? We did it on our world, it's been a grand old time ever since...

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manticore7
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by manticore7 »

Umiak: FREE CAKE!!! oh man I'm so there :D
"Worlds governed by artificial intelligence often learned a hard lesson, Logic doesn't care"
Andromeda season 2 episode 6 All too Human

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Grayhome
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Grayhome »

Indeed, no need to prattle on like a second rate stage villain making theatrical threats of violence, we have Liberty Truth and Justice on our side.

Overkill Engine
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Overkill Engine »

manticore7 wrote:You can't use death threats because they are indoctrinated not to look to their own safety. you can't tell them that the battle is hopeless because they will fight on anyway, so how do you mess with a Umiaks head in warfare? We have seen some variation in the form of Kikitik-27 but I imagine it is an exception rather than a rule.

J-pop.


What? It works in anime!

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Grayhome
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Grayhome »

The Terrans won't need such abhorrent methods when They've got The Power of Friendship and The Power of Love!

For more information on these secret weapons of ULTIMATE POWER visit http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... werOfLove & http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Friendship

LegioCI
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by LegioCI »

I think the first time we stop our Loroi allies from glassing an Umiak client-race's homeworld and instead volunteer support to help rebuild their ruined culture and infrastructure, devastated after decades of Umiak control and likely weeks of orbital combat we'll have just sent a message to every race that isn't Loroi or Umiak that humanity is a potential friend and ally.

Currently, I get the feeling that even though a majority of the Loroi and Umiak's client races probably hate them, they feel they have to do their best to make sure their side wins, because if not the other side will wipe them out along with their "benefactors." Humanity is in a position to give a lot of client races a third option, and I think that if we were to liberate a few client-race homeworlds and give them supplies and assistance to rebuild, you might see a few more Umiak client-races reexamining why they aren't making creative "adjustments" to the goods they ship out. Hell, if the TFA plays it's cards right it could be the nucleus of a new power block after this war is over.
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Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
"But notice how the Human thinks. 'Interesting... how can I use this as a weapon?'" - Arioch

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manticore7
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by manticore7 »

so If you can't reach the Umiak, than direct it towards their base of support. that could work.
"Worlds governed by artificial intelligence often learned a hard lesson, Logic doesn't care"
Andromeda season 2 episode 6 All too Human

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Mjolnir
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Mjolnir »

LegioCI wrote:I think the first time we stop our Loroi allies from glassing an Umiak client-race's homeworld and instead volunteer support to help rebuild their ruined culture and infrastructure, devastated after decades of Umiak control and likely weeks of orbital combat we'll have just sent a message to every race that isn't Loroi or Umiak that humanity is a potential friend and ally.
Offering to help them get back up on their feet in return for assistance against someone who currently has a gun to their head won't get you very far. Their options are currently "serve the Umiak" and "die", what precisely is the third option you're thinking of? You have to show you can drive the Umiak away and ensure they won't return before you can offer any other options.

Really, they'd probably rather you just bombard their production infrastructure. The Umiak probably aren't going to take punitive measures against their surviving population for being bombed by an enemy incursion, as they would for resisting the Umiak.

LegioCI
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by LegioCI »

Third choice is pretty much "Surrender and you'll be under the protection of the Terran Colonial Authority and the Loroi Empire."

Sure, from a short-term strategic standpoint it would be a bitch to hold and protect a system like that from Umiak counter-incursion, and the client-race in question is not in the best situation if the Umiak do regain control of the system, but the long-term benefits are huge, giving other Umiak client-races the idea that maybe being on the losing side of this war isn't such a bad idea. Additionally, there are probably a number of client-races who resent the Umiak and might begin sabotaging the goods they are forced to manufacture if they no longer believe that a Loroi victory means the death of their species. (I remember reading somewhere that during WWII, much of the Nazi's weapons were manufactured by slave labor in occupied countries. Sabotage was a major factor as it was believed that a significant percentage of the bombs and shells they used failed to detonate due to sabotage. An unexploded bomb uncovered a few years ago in Poland was found to have had its detonator sabotaged by replacing the firing charge with cement.)

Not to mention, that when it does get to the stage of the war where the Loroi are conquering Umiak systems, they'll likely have an easier time of it if the native population doesn't think that defeat means the death of themselves and their species. To paraphrase Sun Tzu, if an army is backed into a corner with no chance of escape, they will fight to the death rather than be killed.
"But notice how the Human thinks. 'Interesting... how can I use this as a weapon?'" - Arioch

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Mjolnir
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Mjolnir »

LegioCI wrote:Third choice is pretty much "Surrender and you'll be under the protection of the Terran Colonial Authority and the Loroi Empire."
But the TCA can't actually protect them, so it's not really a third choice, just a variation of the second one...die. It'll be a fairly trivial exercise for the Umiak to wipe a planet out if the inhabitants suddenly decide they're with the other side...the Umiak are the ones with all the weapons. In fact, if the Umiak are uncertain of their ability to hold or retake the system, they may very well destroy it no matter how loyal the locals are, just to minimize Loroi gains. Both sides have been applying a scorched earth strategy to the war...it's why the Steppes exist.

As for the idea of providing faulty goods, it's suicide. The Umiak are sure to punish them in response. And these are Umiak, we're not talking harsh words and economic sanctions when we say "punishment", we're talking obliterated cities and megadeaths to gigadeaths, ultimately ending in them being destroyed as a civilization and their planet resettled by Umiak if they continue to be uncooperative.

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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Karst45 »

Grayhome wrote:Indeed, no need to prattle on like a second rate stage villain making theatrical threats of violence, we have Liberty Truth and Justice on our side.
ill would like to see how your liberty, truth and justice can take you out of "THIS" situation

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Grayhome
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Grayhome »

ill would like to see how your liberty, truth and justice can take you out of "THIS" situation
Already did mate, it was called the Cold War. Mutually assured destruction for the win.

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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Overkill Engine »

Mjolnir wrote:
LegioCI wrote:Third choice is pretty much "Surrender and you'll be under the protection of the Terran Colonial Authority and the Loroi Empire."
But the TCA can't actually protect them, so it's not really a third choice, just a variation of the second one...die. It'll be a fairly trivial exercise for the Umiak to wipe a planet out if the inhabitants suddenly decide they're with the other side...the Umiak are the ones with all the weapons. In fact, if the Umiak are uncertain of their ability to hold or retake the system, they may very well destroy it no matter how loyal the locals are, just to minimize Loroi gains. Both sides have been applying a scorched earth strategy to the war...it's why the Steppes exist.

As for the idea of providing faulty goods, it's suicide. The Umiak are sure to punish them in response. And these are Umiak, we're not talking harsh words and economic sanctions when we say "punishment", we're talking obliterated cities and megadeaths to gigadeaths, ultimately ending in them being destroyed as a civilization and their planet resettled by Umiak if they continue to be uncooperative.
About the best the TCA could supply is escape/asylum for some of the planet population of client species and a world to settle on- which only takes someone blabbing to either the Umiak or Loroi to ruin, since the Terrans are still in a position of weakness military wise. And I doubt either side will respect Terran borders if they can't back it up with force at this point.

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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Trantor »

Overkill Engine wrote:
manticore7 wrote:You can't use death threats because they are indoctrinated not to look to their own safety. you can't tell them that the battle is hopeless because they will fight on anyway, so how do you mess with a Umiaks head in warfare? We have seen some variation in the form of Kikitik-27 but I imagine it is an exception rather than a rule.
J-pop.
Better: Religion.

The average Umiak can´t be too intelligent, otherwise he would question the system, or at least his position in it.
Good chance that this makes them prone for this sort of brain-glue.
sapere aude.

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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Karst45 »

Grayhome wrote:
ill would like to see how your liberty, truth and justice can take you out of "THIS" situation
Already did mate, it was called the Cold War. Mutually assured destruction for the win.
Well "this" wasnt a cold war. and am pretty sure they wont care about liberty truth and justice when they can just glaze your planet from orbit.

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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Mjolnir »

Overkill Engine wrote:About the best the TCA could supply is escape/asylum for some of the planet population of client species and a world to settle on- which only takes someone blabbing to either the Umiak or Loroi to ruin, since the Terrans are still in a position of weakness military wise. And I doubt either side will respect Terran borders if they can't back it up with force at this point.
And even if the Terrans were in a position of overwhelming military strength, that's all they could do. The Umiak control those systems, they can effectively destroy those worlds any time they want. It would be trivial to distribute explosive warheads across all the major native population centers beforehand, and leave a few Umiak supervisors to ensure that the local population is well behaved and productive, and to prevent them from falling under the control of the enemy. It wouldn't even take much ordnance compared to what's being expended constantly in the war. And this is only one approach...there's many other ways the Umiak could kill them.

LegioCI, How exactly do you expect this to work out? Say the TCA comes in with an overwhelming force...the Umiak do their scorched earth thing to deny the enemy what they can. Say the TCA sends in a single courier, that manages to penetrate Umiak lines and reach the system to deliver the message...if the locals decide to change sides, the Umiak start zapping cities until they change their minds. So much for that protection.

Trantor wrote:The average Umiak can´t be too intelligent, otherwise he would question the system, or at least his position in it.
You assume they aren't fully aware of their position in the system, or perhaps even more so than the average human or Loroi. You're making big assumptions about the motivations of individual Umiak. In fact, considering that their approach seems to be working pretty well in this war, maybe they're the more intelligent ones.

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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by bunnyboy »

Trantor wrote:The average Umiak can´t be too intelligent, otherwise he would question the system, or at least his position in it.
Good chance that this makes them prone for this sort of brain-glue.
Don't underestimate of the power of the charismatic leader.

Create a expensive war without good reason, take of individual rights and destroy economical wealth of your nation. People just wants more of you.
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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by discord »

on the subject of scorched earth my personal favorite as shown in B5, have a planetary defense system, on need make em turn 180 and turn the planet to craters.

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Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Trantor »

Mjolnir wrote:
Trantor wrote:The average Umiak can´t be too intelligent, otherwise he would question the system, or at least his position in it.
You assume they aren't fully aware of their position in the system, or perhaps even more so than the average human or Loroi. You're making big assumptions about the motivations of individual Umiak.
Without intel, what´s left but quick´n´dirty assumptions?
Mjolnir wrote:In fact, considering that their approach seems to be working pretty well in this war, maybe they're the more intelligent ones.
Well, there must be a weak spot somewhere.

Also: Religions, especially these like "Christianity" are ingeniously devlish concepts. Maximum illogically story (eg ghosts impregnating virgins...), delivered by a whole industry (curia, vatican eg) with lots of bells and whistles, and on top a total looser as archsymbol who even got killed in the story.
Perfect - remember the times when this 419 was developed: Gods were Heroes, most of them immortal. Nobody would have considered a loser (poor, mortal) like Jesus to be placed on top. But this was the twist: It worked (works still) perfectly because most people WERE (still ARE) losers (slaves, day laborers, peasants).
THIS was the character people could easily identify themselves with. The rest was a piece of cake.

All we know about Umiak society seems similar to that. Give it a try, find a way to plant this "concept" in their antheads.
Fire away. :twisted:
sapere aude.

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