psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Trantor »

bunnyboy wrote:
Trantor wrote:
bunnyboy wrote:Don't underestimate of the power of the charismatic leader.
Yeah, but overstretch the game, and your system will implode. See Nazi-Germany ´45. See Soviet-Union ´91.
What about China '76, Cuba '06/08 or North Korea '(??) ?
Just a coat-change.

But these days we´ll maybe witnessing the downfall of capitalism. Or at least the beginning of that. (btw i´m still p*ssed that papandreou flinched. This plebiscit would have been a nice shock to the system...)
sapere aude.

LegioCI
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:15 pm

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by LegioCI »

But these days we´ll maybe witnessing the downfall of capitalism.
At risk of being political, I don't think it's the downfall of capitalism, it's mostly just shifting to a more comfortable position; we've witnessed that a purely socialist system isn't sustainable, now we're seeing that a purely capitalist system isn't sustainable. I think we're moving into an era where we're somewhere between the two.
"But notice how the Human thinks. 'Interesting... how can I use this as a weapon?'" - Arioch

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Trantor »

LegioCI wrote:
But these days we´ll maybe witnessing the downfall of capitalism.
At risk of being political, I don't think it's the downfall of capitalism, it's mostly just shifting to a more comfortable position; we've witnessed that a purely socialist system isn't sustainable, now we're seeing that a purely capitalist system isn't sustainable. I think we're moving into an era where we're somewhere between the two.
IMHO it´s everything else than that. There´s too much redistribution of wealth. See 99% etc.

But that raises a more ontopic question: What economic system do the Umiak have?
sapere aude.

LegioCI
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:15 pm

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by LegioCI »

Trantor wrote:
LegioCI wrote:
But these days we´ll maybe witnessing the downfall of capitalism.
At risk of being political, I don't think it's the downfall of capitalism, it's mostly just shifting to a more comfortable position; we've witnessed that a purely socialist system isn't sustainable, now we're seeing that a purely capitalist system isn't sustainable. I think we're moving into an era where we're somewhere between the two.
IMHO it´s everything else than that. There´s too much redistribution of wealth. See 99% etc.

But that raises a more ontopic question: What economic system do the Umiak have?
My guess is that it's so communistical that Chair Mao sheds a tear to even thing of it.
"But notice how the Human thinks. 'Interesting... how can I use this as a weapon?'" - Arioch

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Trantor »

LegioCI wrote:
Trantor wrote:But that raises a more ontopic question: What economic system do the Umiak have?
My guess is that it's so communistical that Chair Mao sheds a tear to even thing of it.
So in terms of progress as slow as the Loroi with their caste system. Piece of cake in the long run for us.
Let´s "just" survive. :mrgreen: Then steamroller them.
sapere aude.

Overkill Engine
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 9:51 pm

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Overkill Engine »

I would posit that the current US economic system has been anything but purely capitalist for some time.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Absalom »

Yes, but we've been becoming more capitalist (specifically, less regulated). In some ways good, in other ways bad (for the bad: the deregulation of the wheat markets has gone too far, as demonstrated by the fact that speculators can as a group now dominate the markets, leading to artificial scarcity: it was previously kept in check by keeping all buyers below a certain amount of business).

As for the Umiak, I'm thinking the primary portion of their economy is a command economy. The Umiak themselves probably have some actual business, but even that's likely to follow the fascist economic model (business is a subsidiary of the government). The economic models of the clients probably vary a bit (though everywhere there will be some non-command business, even if it's either minor or subsidiary to the local government), but obviously the Umiak command-economy extends into the clients.

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Trantor »

Absalom wrote:As for the Umiak, I'm thinking the primary portion of their economy is a command economy. The Umiak themselves probably have some actual business, but even that's likely to follow the fascist economic model (business is a subsidiary of the government). The economic models of the clients probably vary a bit (though everywhere there will be some non-command business, even if it's either minor or subsidiary to the local government), but obviously the Umiak command-economy extends into the clients.
That´s what i assume, too.
Our main problem is, we do not have agents there. No contact to a possible opposition or anybody else. So infiltration or propaganda and related methods don´t work (except maybe J-pop).
They´re SO alien that, at this point, i can only see peace through superior firepower. (Not a concept i as pacifist naturally like very much...)
sapere aude.

javcs
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:05 pm

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by javcs »

As for killing off a planet's population (or even most of it) ... the Umiak would not need to glass the planet, or even enter orbit.

All they'd really need to do would be to launch a salvo of missiles on an intersection course with the planet's orbit. The missiles get up to a noticeable velocity before expending all their fuel, and are ballistic entities (and damned hard to see coming).

In order to do a messy kill on a planet, you don't need to get anywhere near it as long as you know the orbital mechanics of the system, can do the math, and can launch projectiles of sufficient mass to get through the target's atmosphere at useful velocities.

User avatar
bunnyboy
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:21 pm
Location: Finland

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by bunnyboy »

javcs wrote:you don't need to get anywhere near it as long as you know the orbital mechanics of the system, can do the math, and can launch projectiles of sufficient mass
Like from there.
Image
Supporter of forum RPG

Nathan_
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Nathan_ »

(for the bad: the deregulation of the wheat markets has gone too far, as demonstrated by the fact that speculators can as a group now dominate the markets, leading to artificial scarcity: it was previously kept in check by keeping all buyers below a certain amount of business).
The wheat markets are hosed no matter what. population growth isn't slowing down any time soon, we've hit the limit in what our farmland can do, and new stemrot varieties are stepping up to fill the half a century gap in stemrot free wheat yields.

Zakharra
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:46 am

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Zakharra »

Nathan_ wrote:
(for the bad: the deregulation of the wheat markets has gone too far, as demonstrated by the fact that speculators can as a group now dominate the markets, leading to artificial scarcity: it was previously kept in check by keeping all buyers below a certain amount of business).
The wheat markets are hosed no matter what. population growth isn't slowing down any time soon, we've hit the limit in what our farmland can do, and new stemrot varieties are stepping up to fill the half a century gap in stemrot free wheat yields.
No we haven't. There's a lot more land that could be farmed here in the US and the rest of the world. We haven't hit the limit by any means.

discord
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:44 am
Location: Umeå, Sweden

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by discord »

zak: quite true, but we are using most of the GOOD farm land, combine that with the whole fertilizer/fuel problem that is likely to crop up soon, there is reason to be worried, not panicked, true, but worried.

population growth + decrease in food production = increase in food costs.

User avatar
bunnyboy
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:21 pm
Location: Finland

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by bunnyboy »

discord wrote:zak: quite true, but we are using most of the GOOD farm land
And most of GOOD farm land is under buildings, roads etc.
Also, we are using globally 9 lbs oil for fertilizing, transporting, warming/freezing of 1 lb food. :shock:
Supporter of forum RPG

Nathan_
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Nathan_ »

discord wrote:zak: quite true, but we are using most of the GOOD farm land, combine that with the whole fertilizer/fuel problem that is likely to crop up soon, there is reason to be worried, not panicked, true, but worried.

population growth + decrease in food production = increase in food costs.
Don't forget the coming fresh water shortage, which is likewise important for farming. Desalinization is unfortunately both too energy expensive, and too environmentally destructive to work so it won't save us any time soon.
And most of GOOD farm land is under buildings, roads etc.
then as the price of food goes up, people will buy up(and would be buying up) those assets and use them to grow food.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Absalom »

Not all is woe, I recently got reminded of OTEC. I don't know it's scaling quirks, but the combination of energy production, freshwater production and increased surface fertility (a.k.a. improved aquaculture productivity) is a nice combination.

At any rate, the agricultural techniques here in the US are currently sub-par (example: companion cropping is almost non-existent, so natural fertilization is also almost non-existent). Fixing that won't necessarily provide a huge improvement, but it should provide some.

More significantly, work is being done on perennial wheat, etc. That hopefully WILL provide a major improvement, while reducing the need for fertilizers.

User avatar
Tanner
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:15 am

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Tanner »

This question is fantastic. Just want to throw in some random thoughts. Not an native speaker though - hope you'll understand most of it anyways.

My preconceptions
The goal of psychological warfare is the weakening of the enemies economic capacities, their fighting performance or their leaders ability to assert appropriate decisions through means of behavioural modification of the target species.

Psychological warfare on a whole race that is as varied in physiology, function and probably in smaller scope even philosophy as the Umiak is an intricate matter in itself. Targets for psychological warfare for example might include their command structures and processes, their fighting forces, their productive population or their reproductive facilities.

Targeting secondaries
War is generally not a rewarding process in itself. Leading a population of that size and diversity to strife for a war requires a strong dedication of the working population for the fighting forces. Umiak are granted that perk through their relatively weak population individuality regarding their "greater good", their focus on mastering their craft on a very basic level and their flexibility to exhaust their own existence. Giving up your own life for an abstract high level achievement is not a mechanic that can easily trained by evolution, therefore it's save to assume that Umiak include other races as levy troops not out of evil but out of neccessity.

As the universe just would be very unlikely to spawn another race with psychological traits compatible with Umiak philosophy we just have found an application for our psychological warfare. A viable long term strategy would be to target the Umiaks bonds with their lateral races, cutting them off from most of technical innovation and or non-umiak bio diversity which might be beneficial in any biological warfare scenarios.
This could be achieved by just increasing the communication potential of all involved races. The more the general populus knows, the easier it gets to motivate and create resistance.


Inverted psychological warfare.
A common problem in warfare is to get your armed entities to actually engage the enemy. The time you take a shot you will stick your head out of your trench and open up a possibility for the enemy to stab you in the face really really hard.
So basicly it's never a good idea for anyone to make the first move. An army of willingly brave soldiers will always outperform an army of onvoluntary brave soldiers. So you want to target your fighting force and your population with propaganda that uplifts the idea of war and fighting above the idea of normal population habitus. This can and probably already is partially solved by gathering soldiers in enclosed societies or castes where you can safely introduce behavioural modification without endangering your civil society.

The loroi forces depicted in the story are dedicated special forces which probably have been choosen not entirely by skill but by dedication to their skill. The loroi main army groups probably aren't en par with that dedication and therefore could always benefit from further indoctrination.


Copy and paste umiak mentality into your forces.
As depicted umiak are bound to differentiate more often in quantity rather than in individuality or quality. Therefore an army that will psychologically influence umiak authorities should be build according to the enemies understanding of force. Depending on the impact of psychological reasoning in umiak warfare it might make sense to design cheaper larger ships with larger weaponry to gain the ability to actually deflect an impending umiak attack by show of force only.
As vaguely hinted in the story, loroi main forces are not as performant at holding line operations and umiak seldom see the need to cancel offensive maneuvers because of the presence of loroi fleets.
Bottom line is: if you can't communicate your strength to the enemy, you loose an opportunity to play your cards right.




In summary i would say there is always room for psychological warfare, but it's not the primary means of fighting a race that enjoys the benefit of having close to no individuality in it's fighting ranks and furthermore can rely on biological engineering. Which implies nearly unlimited and cheap behavioural modification for it's own personel.

Hope the story doesn' go from awesome into cliché anytime soon. But i fear the umiaks greatest lethal weakness will probably be a plot device which should be introduced near chapter 4 to 5. :P
/*
** Actions speak louder than words, especially if you have a giant moon laser
*/

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Trantor »

Nice debut - welcome aboard!
Tanner wrote:As the universe just would be very unlikely to spawn another race with psychological traits compatible with Umiak philosophy we just have found an application for our psychological warfare. A viable long term strategy would be to target the Umiaks bonds with their lateral races, cutting them off from most of technical innovation and or non-umiak bio diversity which might be beneficial in any biological warfare scenarios.
This could be achieved by just increasing the communication potential of all involved races. The more the general populus knows, the easier it gets to motivate and create resistance.
How would you do that? Especially in areas without access?
sapere aude.

User avatar
Tanner
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:15 am

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Tanner »

Thanks for the fast welcome :)

It's never as easy as it sounds :D
For me, creating communication potential boils down to building infrastructure and enforcing communication standards.
A common spoken creole like trade language would suffice for the standards.

In the galaxy of outsiders, where ftl communication is mostly facilitated through traveling ships or small communication drones, providing infrastructure would be hard and dangerous work. Depending on how easy it is to slip small ships in and out of a system infrastructure could just be set up by small incursions or even by private coorporations. But then, any ftl drive propably emits a large enough radiation signature for anyone with the right equipment to get alerted. Also jumplanes are pretty tight and can be controlled easily.

Providing permanent means of communication is highly unlikely as long as ftl communication remains cumbersome and transparent. Maybe it's feasible to just create a listening shedule and spread small communication vessels in regular cycles through all relevant worlds.

But thats cumbersome and could be negated unexpensively by klackon security.

Maybe if hyperspace trajectories could be altered inflight or curved to circumvent the narrow jumplane restriction... not sure if the existing cannon grants enough information to not just guess into the wild.
Anyhow, would love to see the universe expanded on the struggle of the subdued races and the tech in general. It's kinda contagious to see so much plausible background story in one comic-ark.
/*
** Actions speak louder than words, especially if you have a giant moon laser
*/

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: psychological warefare on the Umiak.

Post by Trantor »

It´s worth a try, but there will be no short-term benefits (and in this war time IS short) and the whole thing will likely be a playing field for intelligence services.

But i agree with your estimation that one of the weak points is the connection of Umiak to their "client" races.
sapere aude.

Post Reply