Page 93

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Mjolnir
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Re: Page 93

Post by Mjolnir »

Michael wrote:basically in my opinion i don't think we can always assume the Umiak always have the upper hand, there must be leeway in places, the Umiak must let us have some automation over our selves and we must be able to move in and out of our solar system to do work for the umiak, since no system is perfect and the law of averages says it'll go wrong for the Umiak somewhere, we'll get a chance to something.
It's "autonomy"...and why must we assume the Umiak would let us keep interstellar travel? How does this "law of averages" say the Umiak must allow us the capability to overthrow their rule? They don't need to and they have excellent reasons not to do so. If a ship can be built it can be built for an Umiak crew, and Umiak control of the shipyards can ensure that no other ships are built. There's no shortage of Umiak personnel to run transport ships...they mass produce personnel as required. Their view of other species generally tends toward "potential threat if not under Umiak control". So why would they let us have star travel? They don't care how we govern ourselves on our planets, but that doesn't mean they'll let us build ships we can use against them...because we might use those ships against them!

Michael wrote:im not sure what form that could take since we have no hypothetical situation here, we also don't know how the umiaks slaves interact with them, in fact all we do know is this: anyone with the Umiak are slaves. (correct me if im wrong there pleas)
The hypothetical situation is "humanity is a subject species of the Umiak".

The lack of information about what goes on inside Umiak space should be a clue about how much control the Umiak maintain over interstellar travel...what we've got are refugees who ran before their worlds were conquered, who themselves heard little from inside Umiak space before that. Outside of the comic there's not much more information...from past discussions, they don't care much how we govern ourselves, as long as we're ultimately under Umiak control and not a potential threat. This would be quite easy to guarantee by control of space travel...a tiny space force could completely dominate a planet that lacks independent space travel. Nobody's ever going to commandeer a ship in orbit if they can't get off the ground. And even if they could somehow get a modern, heavily armed ship...the Umiak are capable of wiping out the planet's industry and decimating its population if they cause trouble. If given the choice between a resettlement operation with Umiak colonists and letting a world break away as a hostile state, what do you really think the Umiak will choose?

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Re: Page 93

Post by discord »

michael: what you are consistently missing is a few details, #1 being 'there is no stealth in space' and #2 'there is no FTL communication', combine that with #3 'client states shall have no interstellar capacity', and you are pretty much screwed, why you ask?

because if we can not hold our orbitals and meet them outside them(and stop the hostiles there) a tow ship, the puny thing designed to tow larger ships into and out of docking could effectively wipe out a planets inhabitants in a matter of days, maybe a few weeks, not a war ship, not a planet killer, a simple civilian tug boat, every reasonable spaceship ever designed is effectively a weapon of mass destruction all on it's own.
you could try to LAUNCH a fleet from planet side and attack a fleet in orbit....the term 'sitting duck' comes to mind, or 'fish in a barrel', bad idea.

but we are talking insurrection here, so lets assume we manage to wipe out the local patrol fleet, they WILL have a courier on standby if some information needs to be sent NOW, like for instance an insurrection is occurring, but lets assume that we get that too....and that we disable the planetary defense system before it gets turned on us, within a few months the umiak will notice and send a task force to deal with the problem, and since we can not possibly build enough ships to stop them within that time frame, we die.
actually the ONLY possibility to manage that is to #1 do it while the umiak is in a heavy war(how we would know that is a minor miracle in itself, but lets assume that) and that we quickly run over to them using the CAPTURED(bloody unlikely) courier boat and get them to set up a base of operations at our place... assuming they believe us to begin with...the chance of successful insurrection is about 1000001 to one, since a million to one happens 9 times out of ten.
we MIGHT be able to have a small colony fleet ready to run when the system is clear, that could perhaps improve the odds to something slightly more sensible, like a thousand to one at best, still not good.

bottom line, without control of the orbitals, you are screwed.

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Re: Page 93

Post by Nemo »

... When I think human rebellion against Umiak I think of Geronimo fending off the white man. Sure, he knows the hills better. Sure he and his people are at least as smart. Why, you can even give'm the same tools, the same guns, as those they face. Still doomed though.


That said, you would have difficulty selling me on the concept of the Umiak as an Infinite Empire. They will collapse for some reason at some time. Assuming that, "make sure you live to see that day" isn't a stretch of a goal. And unless they veer into scenery munching villainy or are forced into a scorched earth retreat I don't see them exterminating slaves out of spite, either.

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Re: Page 93

Post by Mjolnir »

Nemo wrote:That said, you would have difficulty selling me on the concept of the Umiak as an Infinite Empire. They will collapse for some reason at some time. Assuming that, "make sure you live to see that day" isn't a stretch of a goal.
That doesn't seem to be their style, no. But it could be...say they have some expensive incidents with planets ending up needing to be bombarded and the planet resettled with Umiak, or someone manages to cobble together a FTL ship and attempts to get a message to the outside or strike at an Umiak facility...they may decide to play it safe by repopulating the rest of the worlds with Umiak. If they do it carefully, they might get it done with far less damage to infrastructure than there'd be with them putting down an insurrection. Or the empire breaks up messily, and these worlds either end up getting burned in the civil wars or just end up with Umiak masters of a different faction.

Nemo wrote:And unless they veer into scenery munching villainy or are forced into a scorched earth retreat I don't see them exterminating slaves out of spite, either.
They might not leave you with much to conduct a space program with, though.

Nathan_
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Re: Page 93

Post by Nathan_ »

After all "Alex and hot blue space elves" souns a lot more appealing than "Alex and the space bugs".
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Re: Page 93

Post by Michael »

...(thinking)...ok i'd lose if i was in command of earth's defenses, but id still rather have the blue space elves.
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Re: Page 93

Post by TrashMan »

Well, apparenly resistance against Umiak is very much possible - didn't the Loroi inflict so much loses on the Umiak that they bombed the planet?

Which clearly means that planet-side, you can hide a lot of things.

Now, I don't recall reading in the Insider that Umiak do not allow any space-faring capability for client races. The Umiak may be harder on theoir client races (as in, more demanding), but I doubt it's so restrictive that the client races can't do anything at all. That's woefully inefficient.

And this brings us back to the previous question - if we can't break away or resist the Umiak, then we can't break away or resist the Loroi either.

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Re: Page 93

Post by discord »

trashman: sure, you can RESIST on a planetary level, and do it well, the problem is you can't WIN as long as the enemy holds the orbitals.

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Re: Page 93

Post by fredgiblet »

TrashMan wrote:if we can't break away or resist the Umiak, then we can't break away or resist the Loroi either.
Everything we've seen/heard says that there's less reason to do so.

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Re: Page 93

Post by Michael »

i suppose its more of a question of who would you want to resist, than who can you resist
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Mjolnir
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Re: Page 93

Post by Mjolnir »

TrashMan wrote:Well, apparenly resistance against Umiak is very much possible - didn't the Loroi inflict so much loses on the Umiak that they bombed the planet?
Does this really sound like a successful insurrection to you?

This was a recently-captured planet near hostile territory with long support lines, and the main thing the resistance accomplished was making the Umiak decide destruction was more worthwhile than trying to get the natives to cooperate. The resistance never drove the Umiak away, it instead provoked a punitive response. The events at Seren in fact illustrate my point quite well.

TrashMan wrote:Which clearly means that planet-side, you can hide a lot of things.
No, it means that if you keep attacking Umiak targets on your Umiak-occupied planet, they'll eventually get fed up and blow you up.

TrashMan wrote:Now, I don't recall reading in the Insider that Umiak do not allow any space-faring capability for client races. The Umiak may be harder on theoir client races (as in, more demanding), but I doubt it's so restrictive that the client races can't do anything at all. That's woefully inefficient.
It's not inefficient at all, and having as much in Umiak hands as possible is in fact likely to be more efficient, with less trouble with things being lost in translation or otherwise poorly communicated, less work needed to support multiple species, etc. If a ship can be built, it can be built to be piloted by Umiak. The Umiak certainly would not have a problem supplying personnel for rarely-lost transports. Forbidding interstellar travel gives them complete control over communications between the worlds and lets them prevent anyone from running to the enemy with valuable information or otherwise conspiring against them, as well as simplifying and streamlining operations. There are benefits in both efficiency and security, things the Umiak seem to value greatly.

TrashMan wrote:And this brings us back to the previous question - if we can't break away or resist the Umiak, then we can't break away or resist the Loroi either.
The Loroi aren't the ones who make a habit of enslaving every species they encounter. We might not need to break away from them.

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Re: Page 93

Post by TrashMan »

Mjolnir wrote:
TrashMan wrote:Which clearly means that planet-side, you can hide a lot of things.
No, it means that if you keep attacking Umiak targets on your Umiak-occupied planet, they'll eventually get fed up and blow you up.
And you can't sucesfully lead a large-scale resistance without being able to hide and organize. Ergo, you can hide a lot of things.

Heck, you could hide a whole fleet of warships beneath the sands of the sahara desert, and the Umiak would never know.
TrashMan wrote:And this brings us back to the previous question - if we can't break away or resist the Umiak, then we can't break away or resist the Loroi either.
The Loroi aren't the ones who make a habit of enslaving every species they encounter. We might not need to break away from them.
Then there really is no greyness in the scenario, now is it?
If the Loroi are so cleary the better choice...

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Re: Page 93

Post by Trantor »

TrashMan wrote:Heck, you could hide a whole fleet of warships beneath the sands of the sahara desert, and the Umiak would never know.
Forget it. Even our todays primitive satellites are able to detect tiny anomalies. Imagine what the Umiak are able to.

And again: ONE spy, and everything is toast.
TrashMan wrote:Then there really is no greyness in the scenario, now is it?
If the Loroi are so cleary the better choice...
In the long run, for sure. Think of future constellations.
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 93

Post by bunnyboy »

Trantor wrote:And again: ONE spy, and everything is toast.
Worse. One KLUTZ, LAZY or WRONGLY SAVED PENNY, and everything is toast.
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Post by LegioCI »

I don't think we'd need insurrection. Not immediately anyway.

The first step I'd take is to spread Humanity out into as many places as possible. Diaspora is the word we're looking for, the farther we're spread out, the harder it is to conquer us. This goes beyond just colonizing planets in other systems, we need to look at asteroids, comets, moons.

Hell, survey the skies look for Brown Dwarfs, they're small, dim and very very numerous. Probably hundreds or even thousands of them around humanity's territory. Since they're so small they're also very hard targets to jump to, making it incredibly expensive and dangerous for an occupying race to check all of them. And, with a few years prior notice, we could use snaildrives to get to a hell of a lot of them and set up colonies. (Keep in mind that the Umiak and Loroi have literally known about us for less than a day at this point, if we were properly paranoid it could take years for us to reveal to a potential ally where we are actually located.) Once we have a colony at a brown dwarf it'll probably have everything a colony needs to stay self-sufficient; planets and captured asteroids to mine, plenty of thermal energy from the dwarf itself.

Now that we're spread over a few hundred colonies in places that are incredibly difficult to detect and destroy all we need to do is bide our time. We already know that we are developing technology at an accelerated rate compared to the Loroi (And likely the Umiak as well.) so as long as we're hidden we should exploit this, using contacts within occupied systems (Who will be the model of an oppressed, beaten people.) to get ahold of technology, study tactics and numbers and other things. Eventually, as our technology comes to be on par with the occupiers we start launching raids and fighting back. Whoever we're fighting with can't risk too much in the way of man and material, since they're currently fighting a total war, which means it falls to the few ships they do spare to both defend against raids and search thousands of nearly invisible balls of slightly warm gas floating around in interstellar space.

It would be a nightmare for any occupier, and from that we could potentially sue for our independence, if only to remove an annoying thorn in the occupying race's side and allowing them to use those ships to better use elsewhere. (Which is ultimately the point of an insurgency like this. You can't completely destroy us without using so many resources that it's not worth it, so why don't you leave us alone and find something more productive to do with your fleet.)
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Re:

Post by Trantor »

LegioCI wrote:The first step I'd take is to spread Humanity out into as many places as possible.
In terms of pure survival of the race, this is not a bad idea. Comes with a lot of disadvantages, but there´s a chance that someone will survive.
LegioCI wrote:Diaspora is the word we're looking for, the farther we're spread out, the harder it is to conquer us.
You mean "annihilate".
LegioCI wrote:This goes beyond just colonizing planets in other systems, we need to look at asteroids, comets, moons.
No good idea, because not very habitable. And that means constant maintenance for the tech we´re depended upon.
LegioCI wrote:Hell, survey the skies look for Brown Dwarfs, they're small, dim and very very numerous. Probably hundreds or even thousands of them around humanity's territory.
Maybe only dozens. Which would render your plan already useless.
LegioCI wrote:Since they're so small they're also very hard targets to jump to, making it incredibly expensive and dangerous for an occupying race to check all of them.
see above.
LegioCI wrote:if we were properly paranoid it could take years for us to reveal to a potential ally where we are actually located.)

Wouldn´t bet on that one.
LegioCI wrote:Once we have a colony at a brown dwarf it'll probably have everything a colony needs to stay self-sufficient; planets and captured asteroids to mine, plenty of thermal energy from the dwarf itself.
Which still would mean a ship or station orbiting the dwarf in the habitable zone as we pretty much can´t expect a planetary body in this zone. Brown dwarf´s HZs are way narrower than our sun´s HZ.
And then comes that "stealth in space"-issue again. Attacking an orbiting station is like shooting a fish in a barrel.
LegioCI wrote:Now that we're spread over a few hundred colonies in places that are incredibly difficult to detect and destroy all we need to do is bide our time.
Maybe with todays tech. Not so sure about tomorrows tech.

Also: How much time?
There´s a social problem, too. A society in fear of everydays possible extinction will form pretty defunct individuals and structures. You sure that we can bear this AND develop future levels of tech like a prospering free society?
LegioCI wrote:We already know that we are developing technology at an accelerated rate compared to the Loroi (And likely the Umiak as well.)
Here on Earth, where we´re all together (and not scattered throughout space) in relative peace in a pretty habitable environment.
LegioCI wrote:so as long as we're hidden we should exploit this, using contacts within occupied systems
Undetected from the Umiak? ;)
LegioCI wrote:to get ahold of technology, study tactics and numbers and other things.
I´d say no way.
To bring up the first point again: Diaspora ONLY MAYBE assures the survival of a small fraction of us. Not continuation of our life as we knew it.
LegioCI wrote:Eventually, as our technology comes to be on par with the occupiers we start launching raids and fighting back.
Undetected until then? Again: There´s no thing like stealth in space. And i´m pretty sure we´re going nowhere with progress, as necessary maintenance eats up all time even to just stay alive. Aside from all the other problems.
LegioCI wrote:Whoever we're fighting with can't risk too much in the way of man and material, since they're currently fighting a total war,
Currently, yes. But how about say 100 years later. Which would be the time we need to catch up in tech. Details like social- and habitat-issues aside?
LegioCI wrote:which means it falls to the few ships they do spare to both defend against raids and search thousands of nearly invisible balls of slightly warm gas floating around in interstellar space.
See above. The Loroi are about to founder to an enemy with incredible industrial potential. I wouldn´t bet on small numbers.
LegioCI wrote:It would be a nightmare for any occupier, and from that we could potentially sue for our independence, if only to remove an annoying thorn in the occupying race's side and allowing them to use those ships to better use elsewhere.
No way.
And what use elsewhere if they already won the war?
LegioCI wrote:(Which is ultimately the point of an insurgency like this. You can't completely destroy us without using so many resources that it's not worth it, so why don't you leave us alone and find something more productive to do with your fleet.)
Nah. This doesn´t work.
They´ll be laughing at us.
Then push the red buttons.
;)
sapere aude.

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Mjolnir
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Re:

Post by Mjolnir »

LegioCI wrote:The first step I'd take is to spread Humanity out into as many places as possible. Diaspora is the word we're looking for, the farther we're spread out, the harder it is to conquer us. This goes beyond just colonizing planets in other systems, we need to look at asteroids, comets, moons.
As Trantor said, it only makes it harder to wipe us out. That's not really a major danger anyway, we're far more likely to end up like the Tithric...destroyed as a civilization and irrelevant to the ongoing war. Still, it could allow us to retain a technological civilization while being considered a minor enough threat to avoid harassment from either side in the war, and even if we're scattered across stations in plain sight within the same system, it'll make us harder to eliminate than if we were stuck on a planet.

LegioCI wrote:And, with a few years prior notice, we could use snaildrives to get to a hell of a lot of them and set up colonies. (Keep in mind that the Umiak and Loroi have literally known about us for less than a day at this point, if we were properly paranoid it could take years for us to reveal to a potential ally where we are actually located.)
This doesn't really work. These ship drives are likely detectable at interstellar distances, and there's plenty of vantage points at which the enemy could watch for drives that were running years before. Plus, both Umiak and Loroi are almost certainly better than us at finding and getting to brown dwarfs, having looked into establishing such outposts themselves and into locating and destroying any that the other side is setting up, to keep a fleet from popping up in an area of space they'd thought secured. Your best protection is being hard to reach and of minor enough threat that it isn't worth pursuing you.

LegioCI wrote:Now that we're spread over a few hundred colonies in places that are incredibly difficult to detect and destroy all we need to do is bide our time. We already know that we are developing technology at an accelerated rate compared to the Loroi (And likely the Umiak as well.) so as long as we're hidden we should exploit this, using contacts within occupied systems (Who will be the model of an oppressed, beaten people.) to get ahold of technology, study tactics and numbers and other things. Eventually, as our technology comes to be on par with the occupiers we start launching raids and fighting back. Whoever we're fighting with can't risk too much in the way of man and material, since they're currently fighting a total war, which means it falls to the few ships they do spare to both defend against raids and search thousands of nearly invisible balls of slightly warm gas floating around in interstellar space.
Our historical rate of progress has been high compared with the historical rate of Loroi progress. With a tiny fraction of the population left (meaning fewer minds to look at problems), and limited facilities scattered thinly across space, and the Loroi in an arms race with the Umiak, I do not think you can expect humanity to make much progress at catching up technologically.

As for occupied systems, contact with them will immediately point out the locations of those hidden bases. And if done via sublight, will take decades for each trip.

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Re: Page 93

Post by TrashMan »

Trantor wrote:
TrashMan wrote:Heck, you could hide a whole fleet of warships beneath the sands of the sahara desert, and the Umiak would never know.
Forget it. Even our todays primitive satellites are able to detect tiny anomalies. Imagine what the Umiak are able to.

We are?
We don't know 90% of the ocean. We sure as hell don't know what's behind the sahara desert.

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Re: Page 93

Post by Trantor »

TrashMan wrote:
Trantor wrote:
TrashMan wrote:Heck, you could hide a whole fleet of warships beneath the sands of the sahara desert, and the Umiak would never know.
Forget it. Even our todays primitive satellites are able to detect tiny anomalies. Imagine what the Umiak are able to.
We don't know 90% of the ocean.
You can´t store spaceships on the ground of the deep sea.
TrashMan wrote:We sure as hell don't know what's behind the sahara desert.
You mean "beneath"?
You can´t go too deep into the ground, either. It´s a matter of cost, temperature, accessibility, corrosive environment etc...

So in both cases you stick relatively near to the surface, which makes your ships detectable.
sapere aude.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Page 93

Post by Mjolnir »

TrashMan wrote:We are?
Yes, we are. Such a project would be obvious to today's sensors via disturbances in magnetic and gravitational fields, thermal and gas emissions, seismic activity, not to mention the piles of removed earth and stone and the supply lines of equipment and supplies. Access tunnels and the structures to allow an eventual launch will be visible to ground penetrating radar, the details of the structures will be plainly visible on seismic surveys. The idea that we could hide a shipyard under the Sahara is simply absurd.

TrashMan wrote:We don't know 90% of the ocean. We sure as hell don't know what's behind the sahara desert.
http://www.gebco.net/data_and_products/gebco_world_map/

And we know what's under the Sahara better than most places...it's rich in oil, gas, and various minerals, and has been extensively surveyed, drilled, and mined. For an example of what instruments were able to see from orbit over a decade ago...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Safsa ... arison.jpg

More recent work: http://www2.cr.chiba-u.jp/mrsl/researchs.htm

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