Page 93

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Solemn
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:35 am

Re: Page 93

Post by Solemn »

I feel there is a much better case to be made for joining the Umiak than has been made so far, and that we aren't going to get a real discussion out of it unless someone steps up to actually argue on their behalf.

I guess the role of Devil's Advocate has fallen to me.
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In order to reason with one another, we must first agree upon basic premises, so I will try to list mine.

I think we can all agree that the information available to the audience via Insider, while limited, is factual, and that our goal is to get the best deal possible for humanity.I further think that we can define the "best deal possible" as a lasting arrangement providing mankind with as few permanent crippling restrictions to our individual rights, economic prosperity, scientific advancement, and national sovereignty as possible, since each of these powers are in their own ways and for their own reasons unlikely to make a deal that provides us with a net benefit. I believe that the primary source of disagreement between us will be on the importance ascribed to those four factors; I have listed them in what I believe to be ascending priority, but you may disagree.

There is, in my opinion, not enough information on the specific cultures of the Umiak or the Loroi to discuss the questions of individual rights or economic prosperity under each faction's rule; I assume that neither of these militant totalitarian dictatorships have anything terribly impressive to say of their own records on those matters, and that both would spring up to besmirch the other's reputation on issues of human rights, economic freedom, and standards of living if they could. If you can raise a sufficient body of knowledge on the subject to my attention, I will listen, but in my opinion it is not enough on the Loroi side to know how Loroi warriors and civilians live, nor even to know how aliens live amongst the Loroi, since humanity's telepathic immunity is essentially unique. Equally, it is not enough to know how individual Umiak or any of the races of the Hierarchy whose names we know live; humanity's place upon willingly allying with the Hierarchy would be quite distinct from the individually egoless yet hierarchially supreme Umiak and the collection of their conquered foes and miscellaneous war-ravaged border territory races whom we can expect to learn about, since this comic takes place along the Loroi border. Because of the dearth of knowledge on the matter of how each species would respond to the specifics of the human question, and because both factions have fairly awful records on the rights of sapient beings, I believe that a strong and independent human state is the best guarantor of human rights we can have.

There has been some disagreement about scientific advancement already, so that seems a place to start.

Research and development
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TrashMan wrote:With our technological aptitude, humans would learn fast. And if we play our cards right, then yes, we can pull it off.
LegioCL wrote:Now that we're spread over a few hundred colonies in places that are incredibly difficult to detect and destroy all we need to do is bide our time. We already know that we are developing technology at an accelerated rate compared to the Loroi (And likely the Umiak as well.) [...]
Eventually, as our technology comes to be on par with the occupiers we start launching raids and fighting back.
I think I'm misunderstanding this argument. I can recall nothing in the comic or in Insider indicating that the human government is actually aware of having a research advantage. Yes, I am aware that the advantage is supposedly there, but unless the human government knows a lot more about the histories of the Loroi and the Umiak over the past couple of centuries than they've let on I don't see how they could know that, much less base any long-term strategies on it. There are limits to what strategies can practically be expected here; simply assuming that you're smarter than everyone else seems an impractical way of conducting either war or politics.

I may have misunderstood either the origins of humanity's superior research aptitude or the nature of the methods of continuing research in secret that have been proposed.

I had assumed that our aptitude for research had to do with humanity's comparatively open, competitive, and free cultures and societies, compared with those of the Loroi and Umiak. To my eyes, this is born out by the quotation stating that "Now the Loroi, on the other hand, are not an open society […] The drawback, however, is that much information tends to stay compartmentalized within each local intellectual community, and rarely jumps the geographical and social boundaries between telepathic societies. This is part of why the overall rate of Loroi technical advancement is slow compared to ours; each group rarely knows about what another is doing, and so the "connections" that are so critical to innovation, where two unrelated technologies A and B are combined to create innovation C, are rare in Loroi society."

Conducting research in comparatively isolated environments, no matter the method by which this is accomplished, eliminates that human advantage. It means that those isolated cells are working in a manner similar to how I believe the Loroi conduct research; a comparatively unified and highly proficient group, but one with limited communication with other groups in a society that provides severely limited support for them. In the Loroi case the limits on support would have presumably historically been due to a lack of respect for research as a field, whereas in the "secret research facility" model for humanity it would be due to the necessity of keeping it secret. In the Loroi case the limited extracellular communication would be due to their preference for telepathy, in the human case it would be due to necessarily limiting communication and outside contact in order to keep secrets. This applies to both underground bunkers and spread out brown dwarf colony systems. So even if it were plausible to do something like that, I don't think you can really say it'd necessarily preserve humanity's fast advancement advantage.

What's worse, Loroi researchers actually have several advantages due to their biology which our researchers do not share. Loroi longevity means that a highly proficient expert can contribute longer and so a research cell can maintain itself better; imagine if most of the great physicists, chemists, mathematicians and doctors born in the past 200 years were not just still alive but had remained as mentally sharp as they were at their peak. Loroi telepathy means that within the isolated cell ideas can move much faster, and the slowdown occurs at information transfer between cells. The Loroi presumably have a much more efficient metabolism than we do on many levels and would thus require less resource replenishment; lower support costs for personnel don't mean much in this case, but they might mean something.

Now, these isolated cells would doubtless be very, very efficient, at first. Like the Manhattan Project, or the German weapons projects at Peenemünde. But even the Manhattan Project didn't exist in a vacuum; for instance, the British gave America pretty much all of their own atomic bomb research (a project code-named "Tube Alloys") before Oppenheimer lit up White Sands. I don't know how useful Tube Alloys actually was, and there's some debate over the extent to which ze Germans took inspiration from non-German designs (Robert Goddard's early solutions to the problems of liquid-fueled rockets, or the early British pioneers of the jet engine) for their own R&D, but the extra information really couldn't have hurt.

Reverse engineering can get you pretty far, sure. But the trouble there is, we don't simply need to catch up to our new overlords if we want to overthrow them. If we had equivalent tech, they would still command the full resources of star empires orders of magnitude larger than humanity's holdings, whereas we would only really be able to fully exploit Earth within any reasonable timeframe, unless our masters should decide to give a lot of help in developing the other five human worlds. With equal technologies, the victor will still kick our ass, hard. Whatever tech we could hope to reverse-engineer would likely be the occupier's standard equipment, be they blasters or shields or plasma focuses, and we need superior technology. New technology, things that the Loroi aren't already working on, would require new ideas; something our comparatively free and open and easily-communicating society might be able to manage, but which I think becomes drastically less likely the more we cut down on the communication in the scientific community and increase the level of control placed over it ("we're sending you to a special secret lab to research inertial dampeners and inertial accelerators" won't put that guy in a position to help make a jump drive that's powerful and efficient enough to make in-system jumps work, for example).

I don't think you can drastically change humanity's approach to research without affecting its research proficiency, for better or worse. And unless I have terribly misread you guys, you are talking about drastic measures here.

Changing our approach to something which, to me, seems to have most in common with the Loroi way, while retaining our research speed advantage over the Loroi, would require that our superiority be innate rather than social. And I for one do not find inborn racial superiority to be a safe bet when competing against a species that was likely engineered to be a better version of human, nor against a species that has managed to kick that upgraded human's ass at the research game, having developed the plasma focus without any Historian assistance.

I don't think it's necessary to go to such extreme measures to continue independent research if we maintain our political independence, but losing our independent status would essentially mean either that the aliens could see what we're researching or that we'll practically stop doing said research.

So getting a long-term research-driven "victory" for the human government likely requires us to hold on to our political independence, not just through this war but for a very long time afterwards. Said independence will likely be limited, and will have a number of costs attached, but the more independent we remain the more we can benefit from a research edge.

Therefore it seems to me that the matter of human scientific advancement under each respective power is directly related to the question of maintaining the sovereignty and political independence of a human polity in the first place.
So now comes the matter of political independence under each of the respective powers.

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Members of the Loroi Alliance
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As near as I can tell, the Loroi exercise a monopoly on space military power within the Loroi Union. The Loroi cannot exert such a monopoly over allied governments independent of the Union, but the relationship between the Union and the other governments of the Loroi Alliance seems an uneasy coalition at best, which will quite likely fall apart and turn on each other as soon as the Umiak situation is resolved. I don't know if there's an actual legal ban or official policy against non-Loroi military ships, but it seems worth noting that the only non-Loroi race specifically stated to be permitted to serve on military vessels in the Loroi Union happen to be the race the Loroi can passively mind-control. However, even if under normal circumstances the Barsam and other normal member races were permitted to retain an actual space navy, the Loroi really ought to think twice before extending the same courtesy to the humans. The chance that the Loroi would allow human volunteers to serve in the Union military aboard Loroi ships, or for humaniti to be allowed to build actual warships of its own, seems slightly lower than the chance that the war will be resolved via group hugging.

The Loroi may not not require total control of all spacefaring, but they really seem to require such of actual warships, and presumably maintain sufficient restrictions on what police and patrol forces are allowed to exist and sufficient oversight and monitoring to prevent the non-Loroi member governments from secession or insurrection. There is an extent to which a spaceship is a threat just by virtue of being a spaceship, but the Loroi are probably able to manage the threat innate to other species having space travel within their empire well enough. However, their space traffic control might require something like in-system Farseers monitoring traffic at all times or something. If so, then humans in civilian vessels might be a threat to which their current space traffic control system cannot adjust, which would require additional special rules and restrictions be placed on human civilian spaceflight. Regardless of the actual danger posed by the vessels themselves, if I were the Loroi, I would at minimum force all human vessels to carry at least one Loroi observer aboard or be shot on sight if it travels anywhere near Loroi space (space which, in the event of a Loroi conquest of the Umiak, will more or less completely surround us); this would help neutralize the threat posed by humans in the short term. If the war lasts long enough, this would also help to prevent the Umiak from disguising a psi-cloaked vessel as a human trading ship or whatever; that's what I'd tell the humans, at any rate.

If humaniti joins the Loroi as independent allies (like the Nissek and the Historians), then they'll be in the same category as those other co-belligerents; a long-term problem for one another, each willing to temporarily put that aside in order to deal with more immediate short-term problems such as the Umiak. Fast research plus natural resistance to most psi-based advantages means mankind could theoretically demolish the Loroi in a long game, but the elves have no reason to want to play our game, and plenty of reason to take a more immediate approach. The Loroi might not know how quickly we could theoretically tech up as independents, but I don't think that matters all that much. The idea that psi-immune humans could be used by any of their current untrusted allies or unknown future adversaries is probably enough to motivate the Loroi to secure human space and the human population as soon as possible even if they don't fear humanity as a faction of itself; if the Loroi win this war, it might take a couple of years for them to recover from it sufficiently to rapidly conquer and control human space, but, well, if anyone's slated for immediate annexation it's us. It's not like we could stop them, and I find it unlikely that any other faction would have the combination of resources, desire, and proper timing to stop the Loroi for us; I feel we should not rest our hopes on such a turn of events when we have no real sign of it and no power to make it so.

If the human government were to join the Loroi as a full Union member, they would likely never gain sufficient military power to throw off the Loroi yoke. Even if, say, the Nibiren could advance to such a level, the Loroi will doubtless be many times more cautious with humans than they usually are; we cannot expect the same level of laxity to which the other Union races are accustomed. So research would likely have to either go to extremes to remain underground (and thus, in my opinion, slow down) or risk being visible to the Loroi, and thus of negligible advantage against them. And I'm pretty sure we aren't going to like the rule of what is essentially a military dictatorship. Heck, even in nonmilitary spacefaring matters, the Loroi don't really have much reason to give us freedom of movement or rights to further colonization, and plenty of reason against it. Humanity's psi-resistance is a gun pointed at the heart of the Loroi Union, and the Loroi we've met seem pretty keenly aware of this fact. At the very least they're going to have to try to watch every move humans make through space. They have every reason in the world to make whatever deal is convenient for them at the moment and then violate it the second they don't have to bother with the Umiak anymore, whereas if the Umiak break a deal with us, then that would be just because they're enormous jerks.

The best case scenario for resistance to the Loroi I can imagine is that in the face of Loroi aggression, mankind manages to take the Orgus option and some friendly race takes our refugees in. I know that someone's going to suggest "the Historians," and there are a lot of good reasons behind that suggestion; Historian space is (relatively) close and there are paths that will presumably become known to the TCA to it, so there'd be less danger from scouting unknown systems out; the Historians are not beholden to the Loroi and high-tech enough to not fold to them for now; the Historian personality construct has expressed an interest in humanity; the Historians claim to be protecting the Pol, which means they are possibly willing to support another species, and humans could prove of use to them.

…which is, of course, why the Loroi would do everything possible to secure the paths to Historian space right before going all-out on humanity; can't have psi-immune weapons in the hands of the biggest post-war threat, after all. The reason humans wouldn't wind up in the hands of the Historians pre-conflict is that in addition to all of those other traits, the Historians are apparently zealous isolationists. The Historians do not permit traders in their territory; prior to open hostilities between humanity and the Loroi, I'd think the Historians would see no reason to allow humans passage through their space, and there are some pretty decent reasons to destroy human ships that do not respect their privacy. Any human passing through their territory could easily be a Loroi in disguise, and I believe that part of the reason the Historians communicate through personality constructs and have such restrictions on their space is fear of Loroi telepathy. Our resemblance to the Loroi turns against us again. I do not think that we should assume ourselves to be special enough to be able talk them into trading with us or allowing us access to their space; we have nothing to offer them but psionically resistant individuals, an offer which would immediately earn both ourselves and the Historians the full enmity of an otherwise unoccupied, highly veteran, geared-up Loroi military with pulse cannons at their disposal. Sure, the Historians might win or force a stalemate, but it would be bloody affair that they could easily have avoided in the first place by just not provoking the Loroi, meaning not accepting humans into their space without some very good and immediate reasons to do so. There is also the difficulty of getting into Historian space in the first place when the Loroi military knows about your psi-invisibility, doesn't want you to get into Historian space, and has small skirmish groups larger than the entire TCA military put together, any individual ship of which could likely eliminate said military all at once. The isolation and containment of humanity within a reasonable timeframe seems to me to be both possible and very desirable for the Loroi.

The other races all present even worse issues. The Nissek are all the way across Loroi space, and presumably don't have weapons at the same level as the pulse cannon equipped Loroi (given their history with the Loroi, I'd guess them to be at roughly the same level as the Loroi were before the Historians gave them Plasma Focus tech to experiment with). The Barsam are INSIDE Loroi space, and probably lack a standing space military. The Neridi are, for our purposes, nontelepathic Loroi. The Arekka and Mannadi are helpless. Since this is supposed to be considering a postwar position, the Umiak and their allies will have already been defeated, and presumably broken as a power and a people and under Loroi control, or eliminated altogether. If ever there is a time for the Loroi to strike at humanity, it is in the wake of the Umiak conflict. Irrespective of our research aptitude or their knowledge thereof. If the humans in the comic learn of our historical rate of advancement relative to the Loroi, then the Loroi can be expected to learn just as much, and have just that much more reason to nip the threat in the bud.

So even if these other races learn of humanity's psi-related traits, it seems unlikely to me that they would, individually, be able to offer us any protection. It also seems likely to me that they would be unable or unwilling to coordinate anti-Loroi efforts with one another before it was too late for the human race. I do not think we can rely on help from anyone should the Loroi decide to take us, and I think the Loroi, post-Umiak, will be in a more or less perfect position to do whatever they please regarding the human question. I further think that "whatever they please" would pretty much have to entail conquest (if we remain independent) or uncomfortably tight control (if we join them to end this destructive conflict and rule the galaxy as father and son).

Life as a Union member may not be so bad. The Loroi might impose rules and limits all the way down to the level where they affect individual humans, and these rules might seem draconian or oppressive by human standards, but the Loroi lack the expertise in the field of civil oppression that makes Umiak society hum along. Besides, being peacefully subjugated by the Loroi would doubtless be preferable to either extermination at their hands or enslavement by the Umiak. But regardless of what their rules are or how effective they are at imposing their rules, I think that overall their rulership is something that humanity would be unable to overcome without a great deal of external assistance, and I do not believe that we can or should expect such assistance.

Based solely on what I know right now (now that all of one chapter of the comic is out, most of which focused on Alex's personal situation and not the policies or culture of the Union at large), I'd say the best case scenario for a humanity allied with a victorious Loroi Union would be peaceful subjugation followed by assimilation. This might not be such a bad fate. There are some examples within human history of subjugated peoples having a more profound effect on their conquerors than vice versa, and I think that would be the case here. It is infinitely preferable to the fate that would await us were we to join the Umiak only to find the Loroi victorious. But even if it isn't particularly unpleasant it would still be the end of human independence and human political power for a very long time.
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Battle-Thralls of the Hierarchy
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On the other side of the coin, the Umiak do not require exclusive military control of space, and this is stated in the first paragraph of the Hierarchy's Insider page. "The Umiak seem to have a pragmatic view toward their alien client states, in the sense that each relationship appears to be unique, based on the needs of the moment; some clients are virtually enslaved, while others retain near-full autonomy and even their own military fleets." The Morat, for instance, have been reduced to the status of dependents, yet maintain their own independent military vessels. The Umiak have used anti-neutrality as an excuse to exercise absolute control over neutral parties, but allies may be a different story. The fate of the Morat is in no way enviable and humanity ought to aim a little higher, but, that seems possible. Presumably the Umiak have their own means of preventing some insane freighter captain from ruining everyone's day, and since such means could not involve telepathy we can assume that humans would not warrant any special attention on that front. So the question of whether or not humans would get space vessels under the terms of an alliance with the Umiak is better answered by considering how human spacefaring fits "the needs of the moment" rather than through any sort of standard protocol.

I am curious about how human psi-invisibility could be useful to the Umiak for the duration of the war if the Umiak were unwilling or unable to give the humans interstellar vessels, or the right to build interstellar vessels of their own. Even allowing humans to serve aboard predominantly Umiak-crewed vessels would give the humans the ability to sabotage said Umiak ships. You'd also need the humans to be fairly numerous or in key positions in order to take over a nontrivial number of shipboard functions if your goal was to eliminate Umiak crew psi-signatures, especially if you employed guards to keep the humans from doing anything untoward, which would in turn make the military vessel much less able to function in the event of a human crew rebellion. If we join the Umiak, it seems to me that they would be required to give us various rights and privileges for the war in order to make us useful, and that removing those rights and privileges would be cost-ineffective; the Umiak believe that crew are essentially a part of the ship and do not like replacing them, so kicking human crew out of the majority of their attack fleet would be an awkward process for them, and removing modern military vessels from human hands would be an unnecessary expense. If the Umiak were to make use of our psi-invisibility for naval purposes, I do not think they would be in the same position to exploit us that they would with other species. So whereas we present increasing risk to the Loroi the more spaceborn we are--possibly risk without benefit--we bring the greatest advantage to the Umiak if there are as many Hierarchy-aligned humans in space as possible.

Service aboard Hierarchy military vessels might not be in the cards for humanity. The Umiak already have a means of masking their presence from Loroi farseers, so there's not all that much reason to essentially hand over their best hardware to unproven aliens who just happen to look exactly like the enemy. It's possible that our psi-invisibility would not be used to mask warships; the advantages that human psi-invisibility would bring to the Umiak could possibly be for things like unarmed spy ships and scouts--but that would still require us to be independently spaceborn in order to be useful. Dislodging us from space afterwards would, I think, prove a waste of time and resources better spent expanding their influence in different directions. The Umiak do have actual enemies apart from the Loroi, and they do have existing arrangements with client states who retain their own space forces, of which the Morat are possibly merely the most Loroi-relevant example rather than the sole example altogether.

The Umiak war machine makes ruinous demands of worlds, but there is little reason at present to assume that the Umiak continue to make such demands in peacetime. If these are indeed the final days of the war against the Loroi and the balance is to be tipped in one direction or the other, then joining the Umiak might actually leave the Terran worlds BETTER off, developmentally; the Umiak might set up factories and resource-extraction technologies and methods on our worlds, but find the war ended before they actually had to be used. Or, pending the terms of a wartime agreement, our worlds might remain completely untouched; we do have something significant to offer them aside from materials, after all; something which is suggestive of a fairly permissive, autonomy-granting arrangement with the Hierarchy.

Perhaps the Hierarchy could find some use for humanity's psionic traits without requiring humans to be spaceborn, but I doubt that would give the humans any less of an interstellar-level bargaining chip. I suppose the Umiak could simply want to use our planets for material resources and consider our mental attributes to be impractical, but we have no real reason to think that. Humanity's mental resistance level is, so far as we know, unique among sentient races. Surely trading the use of that unique advantage in exchange for a unique level of liberty granted to one resource-rich world and five undeveloped hangers-on would be considered a bargain at the price.

If the Umiak were to use us in some way apart from plundering the resources of our world or giving us a space navy, it would still have to revolve around the Loroi. The Umiak have found the Loroi to be an unexploitable resource at best and a danger as a rule. If their mental faculties could be put to work for the Umiak, the Hierarchy would then be more or less unstoppable; even the Historians lack an equivalent to Farseers. The trouble is the Umiak cannot control the Loroi specifically because of the difficulty of dealing with their psionic gifts. In the case of non-telekinetic Loroi, the level of difficulty becomes drastically lower for humans. Humanity's greatest potential value to the Umiak could be as a means of controlling the Loroi, post-conquest; this has the advantage of not requiring an independent human space navy, though independent human spacefaring is, as the Morat and presumably other Umiak client states demonstrate, not necessarily out of the picture. I do not believe that the Umiak would idly sacrifice a potential advantage as great as that of Farseers or telepathic interrogators or any other potential telepathic resource should it be remotely possible to acquire them.

We've heard of multiple forms of psionic amplifier, most of which take the shape of some form of headgear. In the case of Farseers, the amplifier takes the shape of a chamber occupied by the Farseer. I see no reason to believe the Umiak psi dampening technology should be profoundly different. Since 27 wasn't wearing a tinfoil hat, and since the production of dampeners is likely new to the Umiak, I will assume it to be too bulky and heavy to be mounted on anything smaller than a starship. This means that individually resisting Loroi telepathy on a ground force level may not be possible with anything they have right now. Humans may be the only possible psionically resistant individual agents the Umiak could employ. I'm sure making a sweetheart deal with us is in fact very much worth it, especially should that then grant the use of Farseers to the Umiak in the future.

If subjugated Loroi were to have human handlers, it stands to reason that the human worlds should be comparatively favored, in order to ensure human loyalty. Just as human psi resistance is a gun pointed at the heart of the Loroi Union, so would Loroi telepathic skills be a potent weapon against the Umiak. It would, however, be an equally potent weapon against the enemies of the Hierarchy, whereas psi-immunity could really only be used against the Loroi themselves. An advantage like Farseers could prove absolutely necessary in the war against the Historians--a war that is actually already going on, but which might have a significant lull in actual combat should the Loroi fall. Perhaps long enough to put a new generation of Farseers to work for the Hierarchy. Given the Historian reticence in combat, it is likely that they would prefer to hang back even if the entire Loroi Union were burned to the ground, and accept a truce should the Umiak offer to respect their sovereign territory and pull out of any currently Umiak-occupied Historian systems.

I have absolutely no idea how humans could actually make Loroi work for the Umiak, though.

Without telepathy, we can't probe Loroi minds or otherwise pry truth from them, any more than the Loroi could from Jardin, so a Farseer or her Mizol companion would have to tell us things. In words. Which, as we all know, can't be trusted. So even if they're less psionically dangerous to us than to the Umiak, they're still more or less a permanently unexploitable resource.

Maybe simple traditional occupation techniques would work on them; I don't think the Umiak commonly exterminate the non-telepathic races they occupy, unless the resistance proves to be something really special. In the wake of a violent Umiak conquest, the Loroi military castes will be fragmented, scattered, their numbers depleted and their political power broken, reliant upon the support of the long dishonored and disrespected civilians to protect and shield them. Stripped of the advantage of telepathically vulnerable enemies and with much less of their traditional military hardware than they would have had prior to the Umiak conquest, they may function more or less as equivalents to ordinary human guerillas. Humans are expected to respect civilians, we might be able to win over some of that civilian underclass with our cultural values and winsome smiles, while the warrior castes might take their support for granted and alienate them. I doubt it, though. "And then the common people will welcome us as liberators" didn't work for the Soviets in Finland, the Americans in Canada, the French Revolutionaries in every single European country that wasn't France… it's just not a safe bet. And we don't even share a common means of communicating with the Loroi; if we were occupying the Umiak, it would just be an issue of listening in and translating, but it's not that simple when you're dealing with telepaths, some of whom might not know how to speak at all, having had little purpose for speech in their lives and living in a culture that regards speech as intrinsically linked to violence and deceit (reading and writing must be a different story, I don't know how you could live in a technologically advanced society without being able to follow the instructions for setting the clock on your VCR, but that doesn't really help all that much).

The successful occupation of a Loroi world, even after their warrior castes are devastated, would be an incredible feat. I personally doubt that humanity would be capable of such a coup, especially the humanity of the comic, who have not fought a war within Alex's lifetime. But it's pretty much the only non-starship-based use for psi-immunes that comes to my mind, and even it only applies after the war is over and the post-war cleanup is underway.

It seems to me a best-case scenario for an Umiak-aligned humanity would be something akin to having both psi-invisible human fleets in space and human occupation soldiers for managing the Loroi remnant post-conquest. That more or less guarantees the security of any deal we might strike as it gives us a permanent and significant position in the Hierarchy due to our species' unique neurological gifts after the war, and we would have been required to have a substantial military presence in space to be of real use during the war. But if we are not useful in controlling the Loroi, the Umiak have, as I've stated, much less reason to pay us any mind postwar than pretty much anything else, space fleet or no. We don't have any particular reason to believe they'd rush to violate our independent status as opposed to any of the other issues facing their empire such as the Historians, whereas that's exactly what I'd do in the position of the Loroi, out of simple self-preservation. So we could possibly get more time to tech up as independents under an Umiak victory than by trying the same thing with the Loroi, who might have a somewhat lower military capacity postwar than the Umiak would, but who would also have much more urgent motives for crushing us, by several orders of magnitude. The Umiak would be able to conquer us after the Loroi are dealt with, sure, but they'd have likely built our military up first, making such a conquest a more expensive and relatively cost-ineffective affair; the one thing the Umiak navy would want MOST from us is human crewmen manning entire ships (I'm assuming dampeners aren't dirt cheap here), whereas the Loroi would likely prefer pretty much anything else. It's got to be a lot harder to dislodge us from space after we've had our presence there maximized over the course of the war as the Umiak would likely want rather than minimized as the Loroi would doubtless prefer, and it seems to me there's more precedent for non-Umiak races within the Hierarchy maintaining independent space forces than there is within the Loroi Union.

I realize that I'm stressing the importance of space forces quite a bit here and there are other nonmilitary concerns of governance and rights and liberties and all of that, but if we can retain control of a functional military then the rest seems more likely to follow.

So, service to the Hierarchy isn't necessarily going to be any more controlling than full membership in the Union (this applies both ways, potentially convincing the Umiak to handle us with kid gloves and the Loroi potentially exercising an iron fist, even though both would be wildly uncharacteristic of how each side has handled other known minor races in the past), and as far as I can tell our chances of remaining an independent power after the war are better with the Umiak than with the Loroi. The Loroi have to take away or neutralize our ships as soon as possible, whereas the Umiak pretty much have to give us more in the short term, making taking away or neutralizing said ships in the long term an inefficient use of their time and resources provided we hold up our end of whatever deal we strike.

I'm not saying that the Umiak are totally nice freedom-loving rights-respecting liberals here. They obviously aren't, since they invade and overrun neutral, uninvolved minor powers long distances away from the front lines of the actual conflict in order to use said neutral's resources to feed their own war machine. There's no substantial evidence that Outsider will break the longstanding sci-fi tradition of "evil insectoids" (and, honestly, no need to do so either), and there is a significant amount of evidence upholding it. However, while I understand that the Umiak are not aligned with the values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I also believe that the average Loroi warrior would be perfectly willing to gut you and mutilate your corpse, that the Loroi government has no tradition of or basis in respect for personal rights, that human freedom of movement and settlement presents an obvious threat to the Loroi, and that it is pretty much the duty of a government to contain or eliminate threats of that scale. Yeah, we look a lot more like Loroi than most Loroi-occupied aliens, but I don't think either Loroi individuals or Loroi governments have gotten caught up in too many ethical problems when destroying, abusing, subjugating or oppressing large populations of actual Loroi in the past.
Neither here nor there.
SpoilerShow
Trashman wrote:We know Alex will stick with the Loroi - after all, what Umiak characters have been shown so far? Do they have their own fan art? GRUPS tables? Loroi are both more visually appealing and have more presence, so it's 99,99% sure they will be the right choice.
Image
This story is beholden to no man's expectations save Arioch.

We can't know that Alex will stick with the Loroi or that he will go against them; all that we actually know on that front is that he's stuck with them for now. Stuck, as in "trapped." Where he is, it's a little hard to breathe outside, after all. Alex is the story's established hero, but every other role still looks up for grabs, including the role of "villain"--a role which often requires weight, presence, and is usually improved with a certain visual style and class, as in the case of such notable space opera villains as Darth Vader, General Chang, Ming the Merciless, and, of course, Unnamed Romulan Commander. There are patterns and conventions that narratives follow, sure, but none of them are ironclad, not even matters of causality or logic. For instance, Outsider's protagonist acts as Outsider's narrator, and in most stories a protagonist narrating the story logically requires him to survive his narrative so as to explain how he's relating it to others… but not in Sunset Boulevard, a famous, well-written and critically acclaimed film completely devoid of supernatural elements. I think it's reasonably safe to assume Outsider won't give us a twist on the order of having Alex narrate from beyond the grave, but that doesn't mean that you can guess who the good guys are based on who makes a better pin-up poster (speaking of which, I've seen a lot more Darth Vader posters than Princess and/or slavegirl Leia ones). Things like that aren't actually seeped in the logic of the narrative itself, just your personal prejudice. Not all prejudices are incorrect in all cases, but there is just as much reason to hold enmity against the Loroi as against the Umiak. We do not currently have adequate grounds for declaring one side good and the other bad. Luke Skywalker once wanted to join an Imperial Naval Academy, back when he was young and naive enough that even though he knew the Empire was evil he believed that the evil of the Empire would never affect him and was not particularly concerned with how the Empire treated its enemies, right up until the Empire decided HE was their enemy and brought their evil right to his home, but that does not make joining the Empire the right choice. No matter how cool Vader looks in poster form.

The Galactic Empire were depicted as the worst sorts of villains in every moment they are shown and the Loroi are not, but it wouldn't exactly be a twist ending if the Loroi Union turned out to be less than a paragon of justice and peace. The Loroi don't have to actually be evil bastards to a one and the Umiak don't have to actually be good and decent folks for the Umiak to be the better choice for humanity. As I've said before, I believe the Loroi have demonstrated a significant number of negative qualities, both as a society and as individuals, and if we disagree on this point then there are some fundamental differences in how we read the comic.

I can buy the idea the Loroi have been depicted with so many negative qualities in order to make it so that as the story unfolds and we learn more about them they earn the title of Good Guy. That's certainly one of the many possible arcs the Loroi could take. It is, in fact, what I personally consider the most likely arc for the Loroi. It is not, however, an inevitability, and if you believe it is that's just you falling in love at first sight and you have no-one to blame but yourself for that if the story takes any of a dozen alternate routes. It wouldn't even be something I'd consider a twist. "Good Guy was actually Bad Guy all along" is a twist, but "morally complex multilayered and well-rounded characters in a morally ambiguous but terrible situation eventually find themselves obligated to side against one another" isn't really a twist, it's just tragic. Stories require a hero and a challenge for the hero to overcome, sure, and often they have a romantic secondary plot and sympathetic secondary characters, but I see no requirement that the challenge be a distant and impersonal threatening space empire rather than an immediate and personally threatening one (or none of the above), that the hero's romantic secondary plot be fruitful, that the sympathetic secondary characters be the numerous openly hostile Loroi we've seen and (through some bizarre synedoche) the entire dictatorial polity they represent rather than the speaking non-Loroi diplomats and the particularly idiosyncratic and nonrepresentative Loroi individuals we've met, or that the diplomatic situation even be a matter of a simple binary choice; the suspicion that I see voiced most often regarding the Bellarmine is that the Historians were responsible. Loroi allies. Think about what sort of nightmarish political tangles that would bring up; a Gordian Knot that our Alexander cannot simply hack at with a sword.

Hell, to my mind it makes just as much sense that the ship that fired on Alex be heavily armed Tithric refugees attempting to avoid notice as any of the actual extant powers.

If Alex should decide that siding with the Loroi is not in the interests of the human race, it wouldn't necessarily mean siding with the Umiak. By the time the next couple of chapters get finished the story may have evolved enough to present us with some now-unexpected third option; it's not like I expected the comic to do everything that's been done so far, such as the revelation that humans are immune to Loroi psionics, or that the Umiak would open communications with the Loroi and try to negotiate for the Bellarmine's wreck. And, be honest here, none of the rest of you saw that last one coming either. The Loroi/Umiak war might be brought to an end before the Bellarmine's destruction is avenged and before the Loroi have a chance to take Alex's directions to the Prahbu.

So, I don't think the story necessarily requires Alex to side with the Loroi and against the Umiak. However, were this to become a story in which Alex decided to side against the Loroi, there are certain elements and expanations that the story would be required to have set up in advance in order to make escaping their blue clutches plausible, since the Loroi can be expected to monitor him carefully and attempt to thwart anything that might end with humanity on the loose rather than securely under their thumb. Alex would have to have a lot of things in his favor, going beyond mere charm, pluck, and wit. While the specific requirements are unknown and would be tailored to the currently-unknown specifics of Alex's specific situation at the specific time of escape, I think most of the basic essentials can be guessed.

Since the Loroi are mind-readers, Alex would have to be either immune to their telepathy or able to avoid it, lest they learn of his plan of escape. Since he is aboard a military fleet which comes with a telepathic long-range FTL far-seeing sensor device and is likely to be at risk of being within detection range of a far-seer at all times, he would have to have some way of eluding their farseers. Since he would have to initially elude the actual warriors accompanying him at all times, he would need a sympathetic bodyguard, one who can be manipulated into looking the other way at the right moment, or outright fooled and played, or who might perhaps even side with him against the other Loroi--which would more or less require said bodyguard to be alienated from her own kind, something that can't be common when bands of childhood friends serve together, and would also require a great deal of naivete on her part. He would require a font of accurate information so he could learn all the relevant details of the Loroi Empire, the Loroi military he could expect to run into during his escape, and the operation of whatever presumably small vessel he would either stow away on or somehow hijack; Beryl is inadequate to this task, and would possibly be unreliable to boot, so this would require him to befriend, say, a smallcraft pilot (so as to learn how to manage something like a long range jump-capable shuttle or courier craft), and possibly a farseer (so as to get information on the movements of psi-visible ships in the region). He would further need to be an experienced navigator in order to be able to return himself to human space. He would also need to gain the position necessary to make a good run for it; he would not be able to get all the way out of the Loroi Empire as a prisoner in a cell, or without access to outbound transport. However, if he were in a position where he could be expected to have contact with a number of non-Loroi, gain access to various facilities, have official excuses for many of his escape-minded questions and much of his escape-minded behavior, and force the Loroi to adopt a more hands-off approach to dealing with him than they would like with few restrictions on his person or movements, then he might have a decent shot at it. Perhaps something like an official, legally binding ambassadorship.

Beyond that, I think everything becomes too mired in the unknown specifics of whatever situations or opportunities might arise, but those are all the nonspecific, nonsituational requirements I can think of to enable a successful defection to the Umiak.
Image
Just sayin'.
…to be perfectly honest trying to argue in favor of the Umiak feels like trying to command the sea to stop rising.
I can see why nobody else wants to do it.

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Re: Page 93

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@ Solemn: That pretty much sums it up. Lotsa work - i´m impressed.

Image


So with macchiavelli speaking we humans should hope on a near-defeat of the Loroi empire (which is looming at the horizon in shape of the farsee-jamming device) and on tech-support by the historians.
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 93

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Trantor wrote: So with macchiavelli speaking we humans should hope on a near-defeat of the Loroi empire (which is looming at the horizon in shape of the farsee-jamming device) and on tech-support by the historians.
While it seems more likely that a victorious Loroi would be closer to defeat , you want either winning side to be near defeat at the end of the war. It gives more options for break away powers but also new chaos. That might provide more wiggle room for humanity, but also might lead to potential new threats to terran sovereignty.

It would be interesting to see client races on the far side of Umiak space rebel if core Umiak were attacked, decimated and reclaimed in a counteroffensive... postwar scenarios.
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?

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Re: Page 93

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Solemn wrote: I guess the role of Devil's Advocate has fallen to me.
Image (too long to quote and unrelative to the joke am about to do)
I will only add

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Re: Page 93

Post by Solemn »

Trantor wrote:Lotsa work - i´m impressed.
Image
Thank you, I do my best.
Trantor wrote:That pretty much sums it up.
Eh. The purpose of that post was not to provide a comprehensive summary of the situation and all possible arguments in favor of either side, but rather to advance the Umiak case. To advocate for an otherwise voiceless side is something I consider an important matter of justice, and I did not consider it my duty to give equal consideration to the Loroi on a forum and in a thread where support for the Loroi is already overwhelmingly voiced.

Making the most solid case for the Umiak that I could required a great deal of paring down on my much larger first draft for reasons as different as "but that's horrible and immoral and would disgust readers and turn them off of the Umiak argument," "that doesn't actually advance either side, it's a total wash," and "but that strengthens the Loroi case, so I can expect everyone else to point that out." I'm confident that most of the points I glossed over or excepted will come up in time, but I also still believe that someone has to be willing to actually address the Umiak side, and that the Umiak side will only be paid heed if given the strongest voice possible, rather than the more neutral or possibly Loroi-aligned argument that a true summary would give. Even if the Umiak are the bad guys, somebody has to be on the bad guy's side for a trial to be fair.

If Machiavelli were speaking, he would give you a much more comprehensive, nuanced, and insightful view of the arguments for joining both sides or neither side in order to optimize the outcome for a polity, regardless of morality. But Machiavelli is not speaking. I am, and not on behalf of absolute truth, but rather with what selective facts and reasons I can advance in favor of the Umiak. The dialectic whole relies on others to advance the Loroi side.
Trantor wrote:we humans should hope on a near-defeat of the Loroi empire (which is looming at the horizon in shape of the farsee-jamming device) and on tech-support by the historians.
I do not think so. Near-defeated Loroi would be weakened militarily in absolute terms, but after their opponents are actually defeated they would still be all-powerful within their sphere of influence. The war has strengthened the power of the executive authority of the Loroi government over all Union matters and policies, in order to bolster the Loroi military; the Loroi military needing more bolstering would most likely result in stronger controls and more concentration of power in the Loroi executive. Near-defeated Loroi would also have their military power drastically reduced during the war and lose the logistical and numerical ability to maintain border systems; Humaniti lives along the border. If the Loroi set up defenses along the human front and find them to be utterly inadequate in the face of Umiak pressure, then they will have no choice but to raze our systems and salt the earth, so as to prevent a resource as important and powerful as psi-immunes from falling into enemy hands. I would rather not have the human race exterminated as part of a scorched earth Fabian strategy.

So far as I can tell the Historians are unlikely to provide us with tech support if we join the Loroi, and utterly unwilling to do so if we join the Umiak; the only circumstance under which I believe they would give us significant tech support is if we joined them, in which case they would presumably force us to cut off unnecessary contact with outside powers for fear that the Loroi would swipe Historian tech off of human dupes and become a much bigger threat to the Historians. This would mean the strenuous regulation of human space travel and human trade, to the point where they both cease to happen with anyone but the historians themselves; essentially another version of the worst-case scenario for joining victorious Loroi. And then there's the question of whether the Historians would be willing to defend the Earth itself if we joined them, since Earth is pretty close to the no-man's-land between the Loroi and Umiak and can expect them to bring the war to our door any day. I think not; they prefer not to defend even Historian worlds. They would likely prefer us as evacuees from Earth anyways; that way, they get a free supply of spacebound psi-immunes, and no longer have to deal with the potentially troublesome matter of a near-intact human polity.

If we don't join the Historians, I believe it is not necessarily in the Historians' interests to prevent the Loroi from alienating us. Rather, they may become convinced that it was in their interests to allow the Loroi to tighten an iron fist around us and at the last possible minute offer themselves as an avenue of escape from the Loroi oppressor. That puts whatever humans flee squarely in the hands of the Historians, increasing Historian power, but at our expense.

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Re: Page 93

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Ktrain wrote:
Trantor wrote:So with macchiavelli speaking we humans should hope on a near-defeat of the Loroi empire (which is looming at the horizon in shape of the farsee-jamming device) and on tech-support by the historians.
While it seems more likely that a victorious Loroi would be closer to defeat , you want either winning side to be near defeat at the end of the war.
Of course.
Ktrain wrote:It would be interesting to see client races on the far side of Umiak space rebel if core Umiak were attacked, decimated and reclaimed in a counteroffensive... postwar scenarios.
Depends on if they´re able to. If they aren´t, they´re more likely to become allies/clients IMHO. If they are, i can see problems coming up.


Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:That pretty much sums it up.
Eh. The purpose of that post was not to provide a comprehensive summary of the situation and all possible arguments in favor of either side, but rather to advance the Umiak case.
Eh, blame it on teh language-barrier, that´s what i wanted to say. ;)
Most important: Working out the potentially positive aspects of the designated bad boys is also inspiring to the discussion, especially the optimistic Umiak-scenarios vs the most pessimistic Loroi-scenarioas.
(I wouldn´t bet on the most pessimistic ones though, because a third genocide would pretty sure be the end of the alliance. Even Loroi occupation would cause tensions between Loroi and their allies)

Solemn wrote:Even if the Umiak are the bad guys, somebody has to be on the bad guy's side for a trial to be fair.
Except that life is not fair. Ok, ok, i get the point. ;)

Solemn wrote:If Machiavelli were speaking, he would give you a much more comprehensive, nuanced, and insightful view of the arguments for joining both sides or neither side in order to optimize the outcome for a polity, regardless of morality.
Isn´t that what you just did? ;)
At least on the situation as it currently appears?

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:we humans should hope on a near-defeat of the Loroi empire (which is looming at the horizon in shape of the farsee-jamming device) and on tech-support by the historians.
I do not think so. Near-defeated Loroi would be weakened militarily in absolute terms, but after their opponents are actually defeated they would still be all-powerful within their sphere of influence. The war has strengthened the power of the executive authority of the Loroi government over all Union matters and policies, in order to bolster the Loroi military; the Loroi military needing more bolstering would most likely result in stronger controls and more concentration of power in the Loroi executive.
There you may simplify too much here. Your assumption is probably based unconsciously on a scenario like USA vs Japan in august 1945, when ONE big bang broke the japanese spine.
But here we have no such situation. Yes, the Loroi lost their tactical advantage of farseeing, but they still have fast ships and they can adapt to this, to a degree at least. So the war will still be raging for a while. This buys us time, pretty sure we can also care for refugees, which would buy us some respect, even from a totalitarian regime.

Solemn wrote:Near-defeated Loroi would also have their military power drastically reduced during the war and lose the logistical and numerical ability to maintain border systems; Humaniti lives along the border.
As i understand, we´re not too close to the border.

Solemn wrote:If the Loroi set up defenses along the human front and find them to be utterly inadequate in the face of Umiak pressure, then they will have no choice but to raze our systems and salt the earth, so as to prevent a resource as important and powerful as psi-immunes from falling into enemy hands. I would rather not have the human race exterminated as part of a scorched earth Fabian strategy.
No, that would end the alliance immediately, and thus be the last coffin-nail for the Loroi.

Solemn wrote:So far as I can tell the Historians are unlikely to provide us with tech support if we join the Loroi, and utterly unwilling to do so if we join the Umiak; the only circumstance under which I believe they would give us significant tech support is if we joined them, in which case they would presumably force us to cut off unnecessary contact with outside powers for fear that the Loroi would swipe Historian tech off of human dupes and become a much bigger threat to the Historians. This would mean the strenuous regulation of human space travel and human trade, to the point where they both cease to happen with anyone but the historians themselves; essentially another version of the worst-case scenario for joining victorious Loroi.
Hm. I´m not that pessimistic. We´re likely to get tech support if we join the alliance. Pretty sure the same level of tech the Loroi received, because only then we´re valuable.
Not a more advanced level of tech, this would lead to tensions between Historians and Loroi, to our disadvantage in the short and middle term.
But the same tech level, at least on engines, is very likely. And then our faster R&D kicks in. (see further down)
And much likely our ties to the historians grow stronger than to the Loroi within the alliance. But that´s a question of intelligent diplomacy.

Solemn wrote:And then there's the question of whether the Historians would be willing to defend the Earth itself if we joined them
It depends. We´re living on a metal-rich planet. That´s an asset.
And against the Loroi? I´m pretty sure, yes. Sure on a diplomatic level, because they simply can´t afford to get us subjugated by the Loroi, maybe even with a short demonstration of their military abilities. They cannot afford to get surrounded by Loroi.

Solemn wrote:I think not; they prefer not to defend even Historian worlds.
As i understood, they were caught by surprise.

Solemn wrote:They would likely prefer us as evacuees from Earth anyways; that way, they get a free supply of spacebound psi-immunes, and no longer have to deal with the potentially troublesome matter of a near-intact human polity.
IMHO only in a worst-case scenario.

Solemn wrote:If we don't join the Historians, I believe it is not necessarily in the Historians' interests to prevent the Loroi from alienating us. Rather, they may become convinced that it was in their interests to allow the Loroi to tighten an iron fist around us and at the last possible minute offer themselves as an avenue of escape from the Loroi oppressor. That puts whatever humans flee squarely in the hands of the Historians, increasing Historian power, but at our expense.
That´s way less benefit than leave us on earth.


On R&D, as mentioned above, quoting your first post:
Solemn wrote:Research and development
I think I'm misunderstanding this argument. I can recall nothing in the comic or in Insider indicating that the human government is actually aware of having a research advantage.
Oh, they´ll learn quick.

Solemn wrote:simply assuming that you're smarter than everyone else seems an impractical way of conducting either war or politics.
No, of course it is not that simple. But e.g. we already developed our own stardrive. IMHO our strong suit is our culture, our open society, and a comparatively open-minded scientific society that quickly snaps up benefits of e.g. side-effects.
So i skip the whole Loroi-Caste vs Open-Society-Humans thingy, because it is discussed many times before and in my opinion our advantages are evident.


Solemn wrote:What's worse, Loroi researchers actually have several advantages due to their biology which our researchers do not share. Loroi longevity means that a highly proficient expert can contribute longer and so a research cell can maintain itself better; imagine if most of the great physicists, chemists, mathematicians and doctors born in the past 200 years were not just still alive but had remained as mentally sharp as they were at their peak.
Is that so?
My impression is that most scientists tend to stick to their ideas, no matter how false they prove later, and this causes stagnancy of the worst kind, especially if these stubborn scientists were granted high positions in the research-industry for their earlier achievements.
Now imagine these brake pads living several hundred years.
I´m pretty sure this contributes to why Loroi evolve slower.

Solemn wrote:The Loroi presumably have a much more efficient metabolism than we do on many levels and would thus require less resource replenishment; lower support costs for personnel don't mean much in this case, but they might mean something.
Nah. There´s no effect.

Solemn wrote:Now, these isolated cells would doubtless be very, very efficient, at first. Like the Manhattan Project, or the German weapons projects at Peenemünde. But even the Manhattan Project didn't exist in a vacuum; for instance, the British gave America pretty much all of their own atomic bomb research (a project code-named "Tube Alloys") before Oppenheimer lit up White Sands.
Ah, this is an isolated view on single top secret top-notch projects.
But there´s a difference to overall developement, e.g. using side-effects and all that stuff.

Solemn wrote:and there's some debate over the extent to which ze Germans took inspiration from non-German designs (Robert Goddard's early solutions to the problems of liquid-fueled rockets, or the early British pioneers of the jet engine) for their own R&D, but the extra information really couldn't have hurt.
<OT>: I, as being an arrogant chauvinistic stereotype showpiece of a german engineer, can assure you that the only benefit from looking at Whittles or Goddards toys was how to NOT do it. :mrgreen:

Seriously, the british jet engines were radial jet engines, with all their disadvantages in size, weight and power output. The german engines were axial turbos from the start. It was the harder way with way more obstacles because they stepped on totally new grounds, but it paid out, whereas the the british engines were actually water pumps with clumsy ignition chambers attached.

And Goddard. *Sigh*, a tragic historical figure. He was laughed at, shunned, the yelow press mocked him, the local sheriff even threated him to throw him into madhouse.
Only decades later americans felt the urgent need to fake an UBERVATER for their rocket program, triggered by a cover picture of ex-archenemy Werner von Braun (HE of all people, outrageous!!1!) labelled as "Missileman" on Time Magazine. So they remembered that guy with the toy-rockets, paid some money to Goddards heirs, named lotta places after him, and today every american pupil thinks he was an important figure. (He could have been, but actually he wasn´t.)
</OT>


Solemn wrote:Reverse engineering can get you pretty far, sure. But the trouble there is, we don't simply need to catch up to our new overlords if we want to overthrow them. If we had equivalent tech, they would still command the full resources of star empires orders of magnitude larger than humanity's holdings, whereas we would only really be able to fully exploit Earth within any reasonable timeframe, unless our masters should decide to give a lot of help in developing the other five human worlds. With equal technologies, the victor will still kick our ass, hard.
That´s why the victor has to suffer hard. (From our point of view, of course)

Solemn wrote:Whatever tech we could hope to reverse-engineer would likely be the occupier's standard equipment, be they blasters or shields or plasma focuses, and we need superior technology. New technology, things that the Loroi aren't already working on, would require new ideas; something our comparatively free and open and easily-communicating society might be able to manage
I see a good chance that we already have. As mentioned above, we already developed our own stardrive. Sure that came with side-effects/results/discoveries with few direct benefits at that time, but now in combination with the tech support there´s a chance of useful new toys. "Just" stick the puzzle together.

Solemn wrote:but which I think becomes drastically less likely the more we cut down on the communication in the scientific community and increase the level of control placed over it ("we're sending you to a special secret lab to research inertial dampeners and inertial accelerators" won't put that guy in a position to help make a jump drive that's powerful and efficient enough to make in-system jumps work, for example).

I don't think you can drastically change humanity's approach to research without affecting its research proficiency, for better or worse.
That´s for sure.

Solemn wrote:And unless I have terribly misread you guys, you are talking about drastic measures here.
Maybe you have. Drastic measures were mentioned in case of occupation/subjugation. In this case we´re lost. This is the worst-case-scenario we have to avoid at nearly all cost.

Solemn wrote:Changing our approach to something which, to me, seems to have most in common with the Loroi way, while retaining our research speed advantage over the Loroi, would require that our superiority be innate rather than social.
Nope.

Solemn wrote:I don't think it's necessary to go to such extreme measures to continue independent research if we maintain our political independence, but losing our independent status would essentially mean either that the aliens could see what we're researching or that we'll practically stop doing said research.

So getting a long-term research-driven "victory" for the human government likely requires us to hold on to our political independence, not just through this war but for a very long time afterwards.
Said independence will likely be limited, and will have a number of costs attached, but the more independent we remain the more we can benefit from a research edge.

Therefore it seems to me that the matter of human scientific advancement under each respective power is directly related to the question of maintaining the sovereignty and political independence of a human polity in the first place.
Exactly.
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 93

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I think the most important question is, where did the naked Loroi picture come from?
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Re: Page 93

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Count Casimir wrote:I think the most important question is, where did the naked Loroi picture come from?
SO busy playing computer games that you missed the last three dozen updates on the Insider? :mrgreen:
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 93

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Trantor wrote:
Count Casimir wrote:I think the most important question is, where did the naked Loroi picture come from?
SO busy playing computer games that you missed the last three dozen updates on the Insider? :mrgreen:
I...holy crap!

Be right back!
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Re: Page 93

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Count Casimir wrote:
Trantor wrote:SO busy playing computer games that you missed the last three dozen updates on the Insider? :mrgreen:
I...holy crap!

Be right back!
OT: And BTW: Alpha Shade pages are up again; no news though. But an opportunity to secure yourself a copy of the pages.

;)
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 93

Post by Karst45 »

Trantor wrote:
Count Casimir wrote:
Trantor wrote:SO busy playing computer games that you missed the last three dozen updates on the Insider? :mrgreen:
I...holy crap!

Be right back!
OT: And BTW: Alpha Shade pages are up again; no news though. But an opportunity to secure yourself a copy of the pages.

;)
Stop teasing people!

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Trantor
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Re: Page 93

Post by Trantor »

Karst45 wrote:
Trantor wrote:OT: And BTW: Alpha Shade pages are up again; no news though. But an opportunity to secure yourself a copy of the pages.

;)
Stop teasing people!
I´m just helping. ;)
sapere aude.

fredgiblet
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Re: Page 93

Post by fredgiblet »

@Solemn

Re: Research
Solemn wrote:I can recall nothing in the comic or in Insider indicating that the human government is actually aware of having a research advantage
At present we aren't aware of our advantage. As for the rest of that section of your post I don't agree that we would succeed, or that we should try to rebel after the fact so the rest of that section doesn't apply to me.

Re: The Loroi Option
Solemn wrote:The Loroi may not not require total control of all spacefaring, but they really seem to require such of actual warships
In regards to the Loroi:
Arioch wrote:In the case of the Loroi Alliance, only the Loroi, Historians and Nissek maintain separate military fleets, and the other Union members operate only civilian vessels (including system police/defense, transports and some armed scouts and couriers like Mozin's Prophet's Reason)
Contrast with the Umiak:
Arioch wrote:Non-Umiak shipping is kept under very tight restriction, and for the most part, the populations of client states are required to remain in their own systems. When client uprisings occur, information about them rarely leaves the system. It is unlikely that the Umiak would use a client ship as a scout or put in a position where they could compromise security (or flee), unless it was absolutely necessary. For this reason and others, for the most part, client ships would not be used as part of an Umiak assault force.
As for the concern over human-manned ships I HIGHLY doubt that Farseers are used in-system. There is no real stealth in space so it's unnecessary and wasteful to employ them in that manner. Humans would not be able to sneak around INSIDE controlled systems, only in systems with no locals observing.

I suspect that the Loroi will find us MUCH more tractable than most people seem to be assuming, realistically if the Loroi and the human governments are halfway competent then the average citizen's life will be largely unchanged, if we have 25 billion people living on Earth it's a fair bet that we've got decent socio-political controls in place to handle dissent, so as long as the Loroi don't muck around too much (and that would be dumb of them because it would risk eliminating our biggest value to them) I don't see any great push for rebellion as a likely outcome. One other thing to note about this is that the previous Emperor refused to nationalize LOROI industry even when they were losing ground rapidly, I suspect that the Loroi value individual freedom and sovereignty MUCH more than the Umiak.

Re: The Umiak Option
I don't believe that human psi-invisibility would make a serious impact on the Umiak, as you point out our value is diminished by the psi-jamming they are using and the idea of spy ships seems highly unlikely as, again, stealth in space isn't really an option.
Solemn wrote:So, service to the Hierarchy isn't necessarily going to be any more controlling than full membership in the Union
Arioch wrote:The Umiak do not treat all their client races the same; some are loyal and trusted and others suspect and distrusted, some are weak and can be bullied, and some are powerful and must be handled with care. The Morat are a recent ally of convenience with capable fleets of their own in a very strategic position; the Umiak are pragmatic enough to know not to oppress the Morat so hard that they might wish to defect. At the same time the Umiak know they have to be especially watchful of what the Morat choose to do with their extra privileges.
Arioch wrote:The client states on the frontier sometimes retain a certain degree of nominal autonomy, as the Umiak have to worry about the possibility of them switching sides if they are regulated too harshly.
The only reason they aren't bearing down on the Morat is because the Morat are too powerful to cow at the moment. The indications that I'm getting is that life as an Umiak client state isn't pleasant.

For contrast:
Arioch wrote:Emperor Eighth Dawn's hesitance to nationalize industry in response to the Umiak invasion.
The previous Emprah wasn't willing to nationalize industry even in the face of significant territorial losses.
Solemn wrote:I also believe that the average Loroi warrior would be perfectly willing to gut you and mutilate your corpse, that the Loroi government has no tradition of or basis in respect for personal rights, that human freedom of movement and settlement presents an obvious threat to the Loroi, and that it is pretty much the duty of a government to contain or eliminate threats of that scale.
1. Sure, but that applies equally to the Umiak
2. Disagree but insufficient data
3. Strongly disagree, you have placed a great deal of emphasis (incorrectly I feel) on the threat that Lotai presents, Lotai does NOT render ships invisible, only the people on board. Lotai ONLY makes us a threat if we have a reasonably equipped navy and the desire to use it against the Loroi thus Lotai ONLY makes us a threat if we join the Umiak, but even then they've already potentially rendered us superfluous with their psi-jammer.
Solemn wrote:it wouldn't exactly be a twist ending if the Loroi Union turned out to be less than a paragon of justice and peace.
It wouldn't be a twist at ALL as Arioch has repeatedly pointed out that the Loroi are NOT the Good Guys, just like the Umiak are not the Bad Guys. This is not a fight of good vs. evil, it's a fight of grey vs. grey.


tl;dr
I think your argument rests on the idea that humans are a threat to the Loroi by ourselves, and that the Umiak are likely to give us more sovereignty than the Loroi. The first is pretty much wrong, our Lotai will let us bring ships into their systems undetected, but once in their systems our most powerful ships will be child's play for their frigates. Without the Umiak we are no threat to the Loroi and it appears the Umiak are doing fine without us. The second is more ambiguous, but from what little we've been given I disagree that it is a likely outcome.

NOMAD
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Re: Page 93

Post by NOMAD »

fredgiblet wrote:
Solemn wrote:I also believe that the average Loroi warrior would be perfectly willing to gut you and mutilate your corpse, that the Loroi government has no tradition of or basis in respect for personal rights, that human freedom of movement and settlement presents an obvious threat to the Loroi, and that it is pretty much the duty of a government to contain or eliminate threats of that scale.
1. Sure, but that applies equally to the Umiak
2. Disagree but insufficient data
3. Strongly disagree, you have placed a great deal of emphasis (incorrectly I feel) on the threat that Lotai presents, Lotai does NOT render ships invisible, only the people on board. Lotai ONLY makes us a threat if we have a reasonably equipped navy and the desire to use it against the Loroi thus Lotai ONLY makes us a threat if we join the Umiak, but even then they've already potentially rendered us superfluous with their psi-jammer.
[/quote

I agree with number 3, the lotai ability, negates the loroi long range sensing Advantage. it does nothing for the loroi telepathic fighting ability ( that we know of, at current)
Solemn wrote:it wouldn't exactly be a twist ending if the Loroi Union turned out to be less than a paragon of justice and peace.
It wouldn't be a twist at ALL as Arioch has repeatedly pointed out that the Loroi are NOT the Good Guys, just like the Umiak are not the Bad Guys. This is not a fight of good vs. evil, it's a fight of grey vs. grey.
one reason why I enjoyed outsider, no ones the perfect good guy or bad guy; making alex choice ( yeah I know, obvious our hero is going with the loroi) all the more important. It reminds me of choosing your allies amongst a den of radical , extermist and terrorist. Who do you pick, whose not going to back stab you ( a la modern warefare 2 ?)
I am a wander, going from place to place without a home I am a NOMAD

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junk
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Re: Page 93

Post by junk »

I'd like to point out, that it's certainly possible that one of humanities assets in the RnD department is the fact that humanity, does not focus overtly on militant aspects of society even though they are a militant species.

I get the impression that the Loroi aspire a whole lot more to becoming soldiers and similar, and even get pushed towards it from their own society.

Whereas in a lot of cases while society gloryfies soldiers, most parents would prefer to see their children not be them. As a result you get a larger pool of capable people into RnD which would otherwise haven't gotten in. The caste system the loroi seem to have feels like it limits them as well.

Schway1313
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Re: Page 93

Post by Schway1313 »

read some of the main points here so please bear with me.

Whatever side Humanity chooses we need technology and ships to be any help to either side. at 6 planets and it was 27 ships was it? We would and could be wiped out in the blink of an eye.

If Alex is allowed to make contact with other humans (the Loroi could decide to betray him) he will tell them the historians and Barsam are treated mostly as equals. even letting them have a voice in what seems to be a council. Humans i think would like this seeing how we could keep our independence. Once deciding to join the Loroi we would learn of the Union that holds other species including their former enemies.

VS

The little we know about how the Umiak and the treatment of their allies since once you are in their sphere of influence not much is known about you.

And what about the other scout ships? we need to think about them and have they survived contact and who have they made contact with? It could get really hairy and cause a huge debate if both the Loroi and Umiak are being spoken to by representatives. Humanity would be split just like the Tithric because of individual capitalistic greed.

And whoever we choose we will demand nicely for ships and technology. Even if it means we start fighting. I mean c'mon what a small price to pay as a war type people for such advancements in weaponry and ships.

Solemn
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Re: Page 93

Post by Solemn »

Trantor wrote:Oh, they´ll learn quick.
They would have to learn this absurdly quickly in order to implement a contingency plan based around research in time for it to be useful.
Trantor wrote:(I wouldn´t bet on the most pessimistic ones though, because a third genocide would pretty sure be the end of the alliance. Even Loroi occupation would cause tensions between Loroi and their allies)
While there's already a great deal of tension in the Alliance and creating another uninhabitable Charred Steppes style buffer zone where human space used to be could only exacerbate those tensions, I'm not so sure it would be a breaking point. These powers knew who they were getting into bed with and what the stakes were ahead of time.
Trantor wrote:
Solemn wrote:If Machiavelli were speaking, he would give you a much more comprehensive, nuanced, and insightful view of the arguments for joining both sides or neither side in order to optimize the outcome for a polity, regardless of morality.
Isn´t that what you just did?
Not at all.

I understand that you are trying to compliment me here or you've mastered the art of sarcastic irony despite the German reputation for un-subtle humor, and I don't want to sound like (more of) an ass about this, but I cannot accept a compliment that I feel to be incorrect or just let a potential insult go unanswered, either way.

"Comprehensive" means offering a complete or near-complete understanding of all aspects related to something. I made intentional omissions even regarding pro-Umiak arguments. My argument was constructed to produce the strongest rhetoric, not the most complete factual image. You may mean "comprehensible," which means easy to understand; unlike comprehensiveness, I actually was striving for that. However, this ease of mental digestion has come at a cost; the argument is more simplistic than it might have been, something that you yourself have pointed out about my subsequent post.

"Nuanced" is not a term I would apply to my argument, which prefered to deal in broader and more general terms than the details and specifics required of a truly thorough analysis. There are many more levels of specificity and detail in the comic and in Insider (and, apparently, in forum quotes that I had completely forgotten and/or overlooked) that could prove vital to understanding the situation that were not addressed at all. And, again, you yourself have found some of my statements to be overly simplistic; I can assure you, the rest of them are as well. While I agree that taking the Umiak side adds more nuance to the discussion as a whole--hence the fact that I did it--that is not a quality that can be attributed to what I wrote when described of itself.

"Insightful" can mean written with insight or providing insight to readers. For the first part, I have no particular insight into Arioch's plans or work or mindset, Umiak society, the Loroi mind, or the situation in the comic at large. For the second, whether or not my posts provide some illumination to others is not something I am qualified to judge.

I understand that there is a language barrier at work here. I believe that in this particular instance this barrier is made worse by the toneless and unemotive qualities of textual communication. I am completely ignorant of the conventions and cultural background of the German language, so I think I should explain why this matters. Where I am from, use of praising words used in situations where they clearly do not fit is a fairly common form of insult. As an example, consider the use of the words "petite" to describe an unusually large woman; it calls attention to something that said woman is likely to consider a physical flaw. Think of it as a form of false applause, where the clapper's purpose is to draw attention to the falsity of the applause rather than to the applause itself (such as the applause in that Citizen Kane .gif you posted; while drawing attention to the falsehood of the compliment wasn't Kane's motive as a character, it was Orson Welles' purpose as actor and director). This is so common a form of insult that the people whom I've interacted with across three states all frequently believe that "irony" and "sarcasm" are perfect synonyms.

I haven't taken any personal offense, of course, just trying to explain why such distinctions are important even in so small and inocuous a statement.
Trantor wrote:There you may simplify too much here. Your assumption is probably based unconsciously on a scenario like USA vs Japan in august 1945, when ONE big bang broke the japanese spine.
But here we have no such situation. Yes, the Loroi lost their tactical advantage of farseeing, but they still have fast ships and they can adapt to this, to a degree at least. So the war will still be raging for a while. This buys us time, pretty sure we can also care for refugees, which would buy us some respect, even from a totalitarian regime.
Perhaps. I am not aware of any such prejudice coloring my view here, but, I wouldn't be; that's the nature of prejudice.

But if we are aligned with the Loroi, and they approach defeat, I should think that they would require more out of both their own and their allies' production bases and local, regional police forces, local defenses, commercial fleets, etc. More control over both production and shipping, in order to ensure each, is a fairly common response, and in general the more the military is required by a society the greater its control over that society.

Things like that make exerting control over people like the humans a more straightforward matter. Perhaps more difficult from a tactical and strategic and logistic standpoint, but also more necessary, even without the matter of psionic resistance.
Trantor wrote:As i understand, we´re not too close to the border.
Alpine border, then. As I understand it, the war was going to expand into our territory anyways within a few years, even with nobody aware that we're around and that there are industrially exploitable worlds in our neck of the woods. That most likely means the Umiak would be steamrolling through our systems while poking around for a new front to open up to stretch Loroi defenses even thinner, since the Umiak are more actively expanding their space. That in turn means that we can likely expect the Umiak to steamroll over us unless the Loroi can prevent it, and the weaker and closer to defeat the Loroi are the less they are able to prevent it.
Trantor wrote:No, that would end the alliance immediately, and thus be the last coffin-nail for the Loroi.
The alliance with the humans, yes. I do not believe the alliance of necessity signed by the Historians would be irreparably damaged by that event. Nor the alliance with the uninvolved Nissek. Nor with the subjugated and militarily powerless races of the Loroi Union, who would either find that the stakes are just as great for them as for the Loroi, or would have already been hoping for the opportunity to break away and welcome the Umiak as liberators anyways. Except the Barsam, who seem like pretty stand-up guys, but the vibe I get is that the importance of the Barsam to the Union is more cultural than industrial or strategic or anything else. I doubt that the Barsam would enter open revolt over the issue, and there is no way to make a separate peace with the Umiak until the bond of Union is severed; the Loroi have farseers, the Barsam do not have psi-dampeners and thus lack trustworthy invisible couriers who could traverse the psionically empty border regions. For the Barsam to effect secession, I believe they would require external assistance, which the Historians and Nissek would be unlikely to provide since the Loroi still serve a purpose in keeping the Umiak the hell away and would be less effective at that task if the allies fight amongst themselves. For their part, the Umiak would be unable to aid secessionist Barsam without first learning of them, which would require a total failure of the interception fleets since it would have to be passed along to the Umiak by non-Umiak (and thus species without psi-dampeners, since humaniti would be either extinguished or evacuees under tight Loroi control), meaning the Umiak would either already have a strong foothold in Loroi space--which admittedly has happened before, but I doubt can happen again without first depleting the Loroi military so severely that they cannot win the war--or the interception fleets would have to be stretched so thin that they would have essentially lost the ability to intercept. So I think if the Umiak were able to effect the separation of the Barsam from the Union, the war would be over, and without the power to separate, Barsam disaffection would be unimportant.

Nobody would be happy about denying the Umiak as much of the industrial and strategic resources of Earth and other human colonies as possible, but the conditions that prompted their alliances in the first place and maintain said alliances would not be altered much. Except in the case of the Barsam, who seem to have joined the Union in order to avoid conflict.

Even if the Loroi did not devastate our world upon learning they could not defend it, they would still need to withdraw from it, leaving us without sufficient defenses to repel an Umiak force. That is not a good position to be in. If we do not have much production to offer the Loroi and human lotai presents little immediate threat, then our defense becomes less of a primary goal of the Loroi military, and if they are nearing defeat they will abandon us under comparatively little pressure. If we do have a great deal of production to offer the Loroi, then attacking us becomes more profitable for the Umiak and our position along the frontier near the Steppes region makes defense impractical and thus razing our facilities for purposes of resource denial becomes more important, especially as defeat approaches. There's probably a sweet spot where we become too big to fail regardless of the dwindling force of the Loroi military or the scale of force the Umiak can bring to bear, but that would likely require a massive concentration of Loroi-dedicated and probably Loroi-directed (hey, they might not have nationalized Loroi industry for a long time, but it IS nationalized now, and extending Loroi industry to Earth seems a lot faster than giving humans some designs and hoping they can make up for the differences in manufacturing methods and whatnot) production and extablished Loroi military bases and naval yards in our territory. That seems pretty close to the circumstances as those which prevent human research from outstripping the Loroi; Union ability to observe our activities, and effective Loroi military dominance in our space lanes. If Earth becomes that important, it seems unlikely to me that the Loroi would just pack up and leave after the war ends.

I might be oversimplifying the situation, but I think you might be as well here. There are many possible ways in which the Loroi could conceivably approach near-defeat, only some of which swing in mankind's favor.
Trantor wrote:Hm. I´m not that pessimistic. We´re likely to get tech support if we join the alliance.
I agree that we'd get some tech support.
From the Loroi, who are in need of assistance on a scale that we are not able to offer.
And the Barsam, who are described as having an interest in aiding underdeveloped worlds and people.
Maybe the Nissek, who are largely unknown but presumably willing to offset Loroi power.
I wouldn't pin any particular hopes on the Historians.

You've said yourself that the Historians would be unlikely to provide us with Historian-exclusive tech. Why would they would provide us with Loroi-level tech that the entire rest of the Alliance races are unwilling to supply? I really don't see them opening up to us more than they have to any other race in the local bubble.
Trantor wrote:And much likely our ties to the historians grow stronger than to the Loroi within the alliance.
Perhaps. Both the Historians and Loroi have very strong interests in humanity, but so far only the Loroi actually know about those interests. Tempo was very careful to cut off communications with the non-Loroi before revealing too much on that score. Her reference to the failed mind-probe was oblique enough that only someone who already knew about it would understand. They can conceivably limit human contact with the Historians until they've snuggled up and grabbed us by the short hairs. The Loroi have the ability and apparent desire to outmaneuver the Historians diplomatically on this front. The Historians might not really be all that well-versed in interstellar diplomacy, whereas the Loroi actually deal with other species fairly regularly.

The Historians do not engage in commerce with external powers. Unless that habit changes, the Loroi have the ability to outmaneuver the Historians with regards to human economic interests.

The establishment of Earth's defense should humanity join the Alliance seems likely to fall to the Loroi. Alex would have to do some fancy talking to convince the Historian ambassador to get his people to pull that duty without giving them something really valuable like our space sovereignty in exchange, and he would first have to learn things about the Historians that his Loroi hosts--who can exercise control over his access to information--might prefer he not know. For instance, learning that the Historians have superior military technology would entail learning that the Historians have plasma focus technology, which would shift at least some suspicion towards the Loroi Alliance with regards to the matter of the Bellarmine.

…of course, since Beryl decided to tell him that the Umiak have total logistical superiority when she was asked about the k/d ratio (instead of spinning it in a way that doesn't say "yeah, it looks impressive but we're still losing," such as if instead she said that the majority of the Umiak vessels were much, much smaller than the typical Loroi vessel of that skirmish), the Loroi might be just that honest.

The Loroi would probably want Earth's defense to be entrusted to themselves. Humans might want the Earth's defense to be entrusted to the Historians. As for what the Historians themselves actually want, however? I think first it would have to be established that Historians aren't lurking in space clouds and blowing neutrals away before we can guess at their true motives.
Trantor wrote:They cannot afford to get surrounded by Loroi.
True enough, but our handful of systems might be a negligible step in that direction, efforts better spent towards furthering Historian colonization or developing stronger relations with better established powers.
Trantor wrote:As i understood, they were caught by surprise.
I am not good at searching through quotes, but as I understood, they would only defend their systems for as long as it took to evacuate and retrieve or destroy all Historian technology, and would then abandon the system, and that the one or two times the Historian fleets have been of direct assistance to the Loroi, it was under such circumstances that without such action the war would be over.

I doubt that their military was really small enough before the war started to have been that surprised at that level for that number of years. They share a border with the Loroi, and they don't like the concept of non-Historians poking around in their space. I'd expect a military capable of standing off against the pre-war Loroi navy at least, and I'd expect it to have been positioned in systems near the Loroi border--the very systems the Umiak had to run through to cut through Historian space to hit the Loroi.
Trantor wrote:That´s way less benefit than leave us on earth.
Yeah, that wasn't too well thought out on my part. Agreed.
Trantor wrote:Is that so?
My impression is that most scientists tend to stick to their ideas, no matter how false they prove later, and this causes stagnancy of the worst kind, especially if these stubborn scientists were granted high positions in the research-industry for their earlier achievements.
Now imagine these brake pads living several hundred years.
I´m pretty sure this contributes to why Loroi evolve slower.
I think you're anthropomorphosizing the Loroi a bit too strongly here.

Some of the stagnancy of older human scientists and engineers is due to simple neurology. You lose the ability to learn and to think in new ways or consider new things as your brain ages.

I do not think the Loroi brain necessarily follows that path.

Some of that stubbornness is also likely cultural; science is a very competitive field, with a lot of personal ego and reputation at stake. Loroi likely develop a more group-conscious approach; less "Sir Isaac Newton, head of the Royal Academy of the Sciences, achieved X" and more "The Royal Academy of Science, when headed by Isaac Newton, achieved X." This might mean fewer of the independent-minded theorists develop their own theories, but it also means the people in charge have less to lose by listening to them. Think of the feud between Othniel Charles Marsh and Edward Drinker Cope; I doubt that the Listel have anything similar, and similarly personal, in their past. Marsh vs. Cope is pretty much the most extreme case involving competition between respected and competent researchers in a particular field, but it speaks volumes about the effect of competitive ego-driven work. Cope couldn't admit he was wrong about a skull's position because his reputation was on the line, Marsh couldn't let any such error go because it earned him a competitive advantage and served his personal ego. Sharing success and failure might both help and harm, doing both in different ways.

(If you aren't familiar with the feud between Marsh and Cope… it's an American history thing. Two paleontologists who started out as friends and colleagues escalated what started as friendly competition until it got to the point where they were sending hired thugs to blow up each other's finds with dynamite. There is debate to this day about whether or not this was a good thing).

The Loroi aren't humans, and assuming that they have flaws identical to those of humans in order to explain human advantages over them seems a bit odd. I doubt very strongly that their infrastructure of research would work half so well for humans with human cultural baggage and human biology as it does for the Loroi.

fredgiblet wrote:
Arioch wrote:Non-Umiak shipping is kept under very tight restriction, and for the most part, the populations of client states are required to remain in their own systems.
Interesting, moreso because I had assumed that shipping would naturally be kept under very tight restriction by any government, because there is a natural extent to which a starship is dangerous just by being a starship.

Those sets of statements appear specific to normal circumstances, rather than frontier states--especially frontier states with, on the Loroi side, unusual potential risks, and on the Umiak side, possible advantages. The human systems seem likely remain a frontier state fo some time, given the proximity to Morat and Historian space; possibly enough time to develop enough strength to require more careful handling than most, though that is a matter of speculation. Your reasoning is sound, but not particularly persuasive. It might feel better if this argument were re-structured to present these lines at the end; I feel they would work better as concluding statements, presented after demonstration that the nonstandard particulars of the human question are negligible, rather than as opening lines.
fredgiblet wrote:As for the concern over human-manned ships I HIGHLY doubt that Farseers are used in-system.
Yeah, I can't really defend that one.
fredgiblet wrote:The only reason they aren't bearing down on the Morat is because the Morat are too powerful to cow at the moment.
That they have a reason and react to it to shows that the Umiak are not simple universal enslavers. Furthermore, Morat independent military power is not the sole consideration listed there. The Morat are psionically negligible but strategically located and militarily powerful; the humans are militarily negligible but psionically interesting and located within human scouting party distance of both empires, though whether or not this position is actually strategically valuable in and of itself is unknown to me.

Human workers could provide an unscryable supply bases and an unscryable support network, unlike pretty much every other way of establishing a forward base you'd like to keep the Loroi from learning about given that the borders have been depopulated (making Farseeing along them that much easier), whereas Umiak workers would require psi-dampeners--which may be less than perfectly effective, we don't really know so far, all we know is that they're good enough to hide the numbers of one particular fleet, and possibly the position of another, unconfirmed fleet. And if humans get captured and compromised, they won't have information telepathically ripped out of their minds, unlike even psi-dampened Umiak; whereas a human agent or supply base worker or whatever might resist Loroi interrogation upon capture, if he is properly motivated and un-oppressed, an Umiak counterpart cannot.

The number of uses spacebound humans could potentially provide to the Umiak even outside of combat roles seem more important to me than any risk posed by humans; it still seems to me that they have more to lose by taking total control over humanity than they stand to gain. Though, the gain is absolutely guaranteed and involves no risk whatsoever if they go that way.
fredgiblet wrote:and the idea of spy ships seems highly unlikely as, again, stealth in space is not really an option.
The biggest reason I was given earlier for why it is not possible for the Umiak to get information into or out of Loroi space was that Farseers ensured the Loroi fleet was able to intercept every ship that attempted to cross from the Steppes or any other border. I don't know why you are bringing stealth into this.
fredgiblet wrote:The previous Emprah wasn't willing to nationalize industry even in the face of significant territorial losses.
fredgiblet wrote:One other thing to note about this is that the previous Emperor refused to nationalize LOROI industry even when they were losing ground rapidly, I suspect that the Loroi value individual freedom and sovereignty MUCH more than the Umiak.
Do you think it more likely that this was out of respect for freedom, or out of respect for the warriors who work in the government? So those good honest warriors wouldn't sully themselves with trade, industry, and such civilian matters? There is a lot of American cultural baggage involving a dichotomous view of governance and freedom, but the Loroi seem like they would have some quite different cultural baggage of their own on this issue, unrelated to questions of rights or liberty.
fredgiblet wrote:1. Sure, but that applies equally to the Umiak
2. Disagree but insufficient data
3. Strongly disagree, you have placed a great deal of emphasis (incorrectly I feel) on the threat that Lotai presents, Lotai does NOT render ships invisible, only the people on board. Lotai ONLY makes us a threat if we have a reasonably equipped navy and the desire to use it against the Loroi thus Lotai ONLY makes us a threat if we join the Umiak, but even then they've already potentially rendered us superfluous with their psi-jammer.
1. True.
2. We probably disagree on what constitutes a personal right. Arguing over the matter here would likely prove an unhealthy exercise. It is difficult for me to argue about such fundamental questions without an inordinate amount of vitriol even with my real world friends, doing so with strangers over the internet merely invites disaster.
3. Disagree. The Umiak might have rendered us superfluous. The Nissek, the Historians, any potential remnant client states (after the Umiak are eliminated), any dissatisfied Union race (including Loroi regional military commanders who might want to try their hand at a coup d'etat), and every other race we have a decent chance of having contact with after the war is over, might not. The Historians are likely to have done so as well, since their technology is superior to that of the Umiak and they have a certain proximity to Loroi space so psi-dampeners were probably a matter of serious investment and besides they already have good psi-signatureless personality constructs able to make complicated decisions in critical political matters on their behalf so they could probably make a decent automated military vessel. However, the same cannot be said of anyone else.
fredgiblet wrote:I think your argument rests on the idea that humans are a threat to the Loroi by ourselves,
No, the argument was that humans could use or be used by other races to become a danger, but could be bloodlessly or at least near-bloodlessly subjugated if taken soon enough, specifically because the sooner they're handled the more likely they'll remain on their own. In particular, I was thinking of the Historians. Logistical and strategic level advantages are enough to make permanent Lotai an issue, and resistance to telepathy makes humans impervious to the main ability set of the caste to which the Loroi have delegated all intelligence work and all interspecies diplomacy. The problem of other races potentially employing human agents during either future wars or even peacetime could be completely eliminated by prohibiting humans from entering Loroi worlds, and the problem of other races potentially hiring or somehow otherwise making use of human lotai could be completely eliminated by preventing humans from coming into contact with every other race, but unless you are able to restrict human freedom of movement and freedom of settlement, they remain potential dangers. Trantor and others are already talking about getting close with the Historians and other allied races; surely the Loroi see this as a possibility too, and would do everything in their power to prevent it. Would you sit back and let the Historians develop diplomatic ties with the humans? Unless the Loroi can stop us from moving around, settling in new places, and dealing with other people, we'd never be by ourselves. Humans trading through Morat space are potentially humans in Morat hands. Humans making deals with the Historians are probably already humans in Historian hands. Humans in a colony settled near the Nissek border are humans in Nissek hands. Worse, things that happens to any human ship could rock the Loroi Union forty or sixty years down the line; if some colony ship disappears near Historian space and is never heard from again, you won't know if a jump went wrong or if they got abducted by the Historians for purposes unknown unless you had Loroi baby-sitting it. You can rely on inertia and logistics to contain the human problem for a decade or three, but at some point you are going to have to contain, control, or counteract it, and it doesn't seem like something technology can handily counteract.

Lotai might not be all that useful to the Umiak, but the question of whether or not it is threatening is best answered by the Loroi. Tempo shut down communications with the non-Loroi the moment it got brought up, but this leads to the question of whether that was because of Alex's lotai, or because of the artificial lotai of the Umiak. It is conceivable that the non-Loroi races of the Alliance might try to break off and form their own separate peace with the Umiak if they knew the Loroi had just been thrown a curveball like that, and it is very, very likely that they would at the very least try to discover the technology by which the Umiak had achieved their lotai and reproduce it for their own purposes in the future. I've already said that I think it unlikely that the other races would do so, given the difficulty of doing so for the Barsam and the unknown motives and lack of benefit to doing so for the Historians, but it's not something that I feel any particular certainty about, and the real question is whether or not Tempo thought that letting them in on the fact that Farseers are now much less useful would be a good idea. But even if her motive was to prevent them from learning about Umiak fleet lotai, the natural human lotai is, I think, also a matter of political concern. We can already tell that lotai is in principle a very serious matter for the Loroi; whether human-specific lotai earns some exemption is something we can only tell as the story progresses. Since lotai has been classified as a really big deal by the Loroi in the know, I think we would require a specific and in-story confirmation if the Loroi believe that humans with lotai do not naturally follow suit.

I don't think the Loroi can softly cut us off from the galaxy, and I think cutting us off should be one of their more immediate goals, as its not exactly something that can be put off for too long. Control of space seems the way to go to me, and it seems easier to accomplish the sooner it is tried.

fredgiblet wrote:and that the Umiak are likely to give us more sovereignty than the Loroi
I wouldn't have put it like that. Rather I would say that the Umiak have less reason to revoke it as soon, once granted. The Loroi seem more likely to grant it initially and to grant more economically and legally lax and favorable conditions, but also have more reason to revoke it fairly quickly and painlessly. To me, the Umiak seem more likely to exert a slow, gradual grind.

[quote="fredgiblet]It wouldn't be a twist at ALL[/quote]…I know. If I said "this forum isn't exactly a constant flurry of activity," or "I'm not exactly the best writer around," would you have felt the need to tell me that this board is in fact rather sedate by the standards of most online communities, or that my inchoate, droning, repetitive ramblings are in point of fact not well composed by any measure? "Not exactly" used as "not at all" is such a common platitude where I am from that it barely even counts as understatement in my eyes. Was my statement actually ambiguous? I thought the context was sufficient to make my meaning clear. Is this just because I used a few simplistic terms like "bad guys"? "Good" and "bad" don't have to be moral terms, you know. If one side makes a good choice for alliance and the other is a bad choice, and if one side is beneficient and the other is malefic towards humanity, they're still generally functional terms. If I thought I had to cover the nuances of complex astropolitics every time I wanted to say "the people we shouldn't side with and/or who take the role of antagonist in the story" or "the people we should side with, and who take a protagonistic role in the story" my walls of text would be twice as long. And nobody wants that. Nobody.

tl;dr I don't believe you've done enough to establish that humans can expect to be treated as a standard case, you don't believe I've demonstrated that humans can expect to be treated exceptionally, you've mischaracterized some of my statements and I've probably just plain misunderstood some of yours.

So unless one of us can produce more compelling evidence the case isn't likely to be established, and thus, since the jury cannot be expected to move towards a verdict without further evidence, I MOVE FOR A MISTRIAL. Let us attempt a retrial after Chapter 3 begins.

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Trantor
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Re: Page 93

Post by Trantor »

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:Oh, they´ll learn quick.
They would have to learn this absurdly quickly in order to implement a contingency plan based around research in time for it to be useful.
No, not absurdly. We´ve already done a good chunk of research ourselves, so getting new tech input over a comparatively short span of time would unleash a kickstart.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:(I wouldn´t bet on the most pessimistic ones though, because a third genocide would pretty sure be the end of the alliance. Even Loroi occupation would cause tensions between Loroi and their allies)
While there's already a great deal of tension in the Alliance and creating another uninhabitable Charred Steppes style buffer zone where human space used to be could only exacerbate those tensions, I'm not so sure it would be a breaking point. These powers knew who they were getting into bed with and what the stakes were ahead of time.
Um, i think this alliance only turned into an axis when the war broke out. It is more like an expedient community than a marriage in heaven.

Solemn wrote:...or you've mastered the art of sarcastic irony despite the German reputation for un-subtle humor...
Oh, we germans have humor. But ze brits always mistake it for chauvinism.

:mrgreen:
Solemn wrote:"Comprehensive" means offering a complete or near-complete understanding of all aspects related to something. I made intentional omissions even regarding pro-Umiak arguments. My argument was constructed to produce the strongest rhetoric, not the most complete factual image. You may mean "comprehensible," which means easy to understand; unlike comprehensiveness, I actually was striving for that.
No, i understood "comprehensive".

Solemn wrote:For the second, whether or not my posts provide some illumination to others is not something I am qualified to judge.
OT: You study law?

Solemn wrote:I understand that there is a language barrier at work here. I believe that in this particular instance this barrier is made worse by the toneless and unemotive qualities of textual communication.
No, it´s not that bad.

Solemn wrote:I am completely ignorant of the conventions and cultural background of the German language
So am i on the american and anglican.

Solemn wrote:Where I am from, use of praising words used in situations where they clearly do not fit is a fairly common form of insult. As an example, consider the use of the words "petite" to describe an unusually large woman; it calls attention to something that said woman is likely to consider a physical flaw. Think of it as a form of false applause, where the clapper's purpose is to draw attention to the falsity of the applause rather than to the applause itself (such as the applause in that Citizen Kane .gif you posted
Ah. Sorry for that impression, i just searched for a "clap.gif" on ze internets, and i took mr. Welles. I also found a clapping Commander Riker, but we ain´t no trekkies, so i turned him down in favor of the other pic.
Last time i saw "Citizen Kane" was a quarter century ago, and i didn´t memorize his applause als false. My bad, sry.

If you´re unsure about the nuances in my communication - don´t assume, feel free to ask!

Solemn wrote:This is so common a form of insult that the people whom I've interacted with across three states all frequently believe that "irony" and "sarcasm" are perfect synonyms.
Um, i don´t get the point here?

Solemn wrote:Things like that make exerting control over people like the humans a more straightforward matter. Perhaps more difficult from a tactical and strategic and logistic standpoint, but also more necessary, even without the matter of psionic resistance.
Their military is already overstressed. I´m sure they just can´t.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:As i understand, we´re not too close to the border.
Alpine border, then. As I understand it, the war was going to expand into our territory anyways within a few years, even with nobody aware that we're around and that there are industrially exploitable worlds in our neck of the woods.
Hm, that´s where we need a complete map by now. Arioch?

Solemn wrote:That most likely means the Umiak would be steamrolling through our systems while poking around for a new front to open up to stretch Loroi defenses even thinner, since the Umiak are more actively expanding their space. That in turn means that we can likely expect the Umiak to steamroll over us unless the Loroi can prevent it, and the weaker and closer to defeat the Loroi are the less they are able to prevent it.
That´s where the Historians come in.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:No, that would end the alliance immediately, and thus be the last coffin-nail for the Loroi.
The alliance with the humans, yes.
No, the whole alliance.

Solemn wrote:Except the Barsam, who seem like pretty stand-up guys, but the vibe I get is that the importance of the Barsam to the Union is more cultural than industrial or strategic or anything else. I doubt that the Barsam would enter open revolt over the issue, and there is no way to make a separate peace with the Umiak until the bond of Union is severed; the Loroi have farseers, the Barsam do not have psi-dampeners and thus lack trustworthy invisible couriers who could traverse the psionically empty border regions. For the Barsam to effect secession, I believe they would require external assistance, which the Historians and Nissek would be unlikely to provide since the Loroi still serve a purpose in keeping the Umiak the hell away and would be less effective at that task if the allies fight amongst themselves.
...
So I think if the Umiak were able to effect the separation of the Barsam from the Union, the war would be over, and without the power to separate, Barsam disaffection would be unimportant.
Barsam switching to Umiak side isn´t quite a realistic scenario. But that alliance would surely be dead. Maybe not stante pede, but at the next turning point in that war for sure.

Solemn wrote:Even if the Loroi did not devastate our world upon learning they could not defend it, they would still need to withdraw from it, leaving us without sufficient defenses to repel an Umiak force. That is not a good position to be in.
As mentioned before, Historians. Feeding us with Loroi-level tech would cost them next to nothing, and they would strongly benefit from the long-term effects.

Also, i can´t see any other scenario at this point. ;)

Solemn wrote:If we do not have much production to offer the Loroi and human lotai presents little immediate threat, then our defense becomes less of a primary goal of the Loroi military, and if they are nearing defeat they will abandon us under comparatively little pressure.
This scenario is already quite unlikely.

Solemn wrote:If we do have a great deal of production to offer the Loroi, then attacking us becomes more profitable for the Umiak and our position along the frontier near the Steppes region makes defense impractical and thus razing our facilities for purposes of resource denial becomes more important, especially as defeat approaches.
Well, the moment the Umiak learn about us it is sealed that they will come after us, no matter how valuable we seem.
As for our position, i´m not quite sure if we´re near to the steppes. IMHO we aren´t.

Solemn wrote:That seems pretty close to the circumstances as those which prevent human research from outstripping the Loroi; Union ability to observe our activities, and effective Loroi military dominance in our space lanes. If Earth becomes that important, it seems unlikely to me that the Loroi would just pack up and leave after the war ends.
That´s why we should approach the others, in particular Historians and Barsam.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:Hm. I´m not that pessimistic. We´re likely to get tech support if we join the alliance.
I agree that we'd get some tech support.
From the Loroi, who are in need of assistance on a scale that we are not able to offer.
And the Barsam, who are described as having an interest in aiding underdeveloped worlds and people.
Maybe the Nissek, who are largely unknown but presumably willing to offset Loroi power.
I wouldn't pin any particular hopes on the Historians.

You've said yourself that the Historians would be unlikely to provide us with Historian-exclusive tech. Why would they would provide us with Loroi-level tech that the entire rest of the Alliance races are unwilling to supply? I really don't see them opening up to us more than they have to any other race in the local bubble.
Take a look at the upcoming strategic situation, and then at the post-war situation. The Historians HAVE to move on this, otherwise they get outmanouvered.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:And much likely our ties to the historians grow stronger than to the Loroi within the alliance.
Perhaps. Both the Historians and Loroi have very strong interests in humanity, but so far only the Loroi actually know about those interests. Tempo was very careful to cut off communications with the non-Loroi before revealing too much on that score. Her reference to the failed mind-probe was oblique enough that only someone who already knew about it would understand.
Na. the Historians are not stupid, their intel will quickly find out that something´s going on.

Solemn wrote:They can conceivably limit human contact with the Historians until they've snuggled up and grabbed us by the short hairs. The Loroi have the ability and apparent desire to outmaneuver the Historians diplomatically on this front. The Historians might not really be all that well-versed in interstellar diplomacy, whereas the Loroi actually deal with other species fairly regularly.
I don´t think so.

And forget about diplomacy - this is more a game of strategy. ;)

Solemn wrote:The establishment of Earth's defense should humanity join the Alliance seems likely to fall to the Loroi. Alex would have to do some fancy talking to convince the Historian ambassador to get his people to pull that duty without giving them something really valuable like our space sovereignty in exchange
Our value lies in the oncoming constellations.

Solemn wrote:and he would first have to learn things about the Historians that his Loroi hosts--who can exercise control over his access to information--might prefer he not know. For instance, learning that the Historians have superior military technology would entail learning that the Historians have plasma focus technology, which would shift at least some suspicion towards the Loroi Alliance with regards to the matter of the Bellarmine.
There you have a point.
But i´m sure he´ll find out soon. The newest WIP-page indicates that he´s a brillant tactitian and strategist. ;)

Solemn wrote:The Loroi would probably want Earth's defense to be entrusted to themselves. Humans might want the Earth's defense to be entrusted to the Historians. As for what the Historians themselves actually want, however? I think first it would have to be established that Historians aren't lurking in space clouds and blowing neutrals away before we can guess at their true motives.
Hm, let´s say it wasn´t an accident. what motives would the historians have?

(If it was an accident, i´m pretty sure there won´t be any consequences, it´s war, shit happens.)

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:They cannot afford to get surrounded by Loroi.
True enough, but our handful of systems might be a negligible step in that direction, efforts better spent towards furthering Historian colonization or developing stronger relations with better established powers.
Giving us some lower tech is at this point of my knowledge one of the cheaper options.
;)

Solemn wrote:I doubt that their military was really small enough before the war started to have been that surprised at that level for that number of years. They share a border with the Loroi, and they don't like the concept of non-Historians poking around in their space. I'd expect a military capable of standing off against the pre-war Loroi navy at least, and I'd expect it to have been positioned in systems near the Loroi border--the very systems the Umiak had to run through to cut through Historian space to hit the Loroi.
Yes, but that´s not exactly an argument against my "caught by surprise"-theory.
;)

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:Is that so?
My impression is that most scientists tend to stick to their ideas, no matter how false they prove later, and this causes stagnancy of the worst kind, especially if these stubborn scientists were granted high positions in the research-industry for their earlier achievements.
Now imagine these brake pads living several hundred years.
I´m pretty sure this contributes to why Loroi evolve slower.
I think you're anthropomorphosizing the Loroi a bit too strongly here.

Some of the stagnancy of older human scientists and engineers is due to simple neurology. You lose the ability to learn and to think in new ways or consider new things as your brain ages.

I do not think the Loroi brain necessarily follows that path.
It´s more a social issue, but very probably caused a neuronal pattern. See, e.g. our spaceelves also long for medals and honour - Ashrain chose to go to the front instead of having a good job in a save area.
Then there´s that caste-problem.
Also they rely much on their sanzai, that´s where they think they´re superior to other races, and i´m sure that´s also a sign for a quick but simple structure that maps directly to a social pattern.
But one way or another, it was already stated that hey develop slower, the exact set of causes is remain to seen.

Solemn wrote: ...
The Loroi aren't humans, and assuming that they have flaws identical to those of humans in order to explain human advantages over them seems a bit odd.
Not only that flaws, but additionally to their society (caste, 10:1 gender ratio etc, totalitarian society etc...).

Solemn wrote:I doubt very strongly that their infrastructure of research would work half so well for humans with human cultural baggage and human biology as it does for the Loroi.
See above, they´re slower on that field. Why? Dunno; we´ll maybe see.

Solemn wrote:I don't think the Loroi can softly cut us off from the galaxy, and I think cutting us off should be one of their more immediate goals, as its not exactly something that can be put off for too long. Control of space seems the way to go to me, and it seems easier to accomplish the sooner it is tried.
That´s for sure.

Solemn wrote:If I thought I had to cover the nuances of complex astropolitics every time I wanted to say "the people we shouldn't side with and/or who take the role of antagonist in the story" or "the people we should side with, and who take a protagonistic role in the story" my walls of text would be twice as long. And nobody wants that. Nobody.
Give it a try. :mrgreen:

Solemn wrote:tl;dr I don't believe you've done enough to establish that humans can expect to be treated as a standard case, you don't believe I've demonstrated that humans can expect to be treated exceptionally, you've mischaracterized some of my statements and I've probably just plain misunderstood some of yours.

So unless one of us can produce more compelling evidence the case isn't likely to be established, and thus, since the jury cannot be expected to move towards a verdict without further evidence, I MOVE FOR A MISTRIAL. Let us attempt a retrial after Chapter 3 begins.
You flinching? I thought it was getting interesting at this point? ;)
sapere aude.

Solemn
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Re: Page 93

Post by Solemn »

Trantor wrote:No, not absurdly. We´ve already done a good chunk of research ourselves, so getting new tech input over a comparatively short span of time would unleash a kickstart.
I think you probably have more faith in humanity than I do.

Let's politely chalk it up to a matter of opinion.
Trantor wrote:Um, i think this alliance only turned into an axis when the war broke out. It is more like an expedient community than a marriage in heaven.
The Loroi had already completed several wars, including a near-genocidal suppression campaign against the Mannadi, before this one came around. I don't know if I understand your point here.
Trantor wrote:OT: You study law?
No, but I'm deeply flattered by the question.
Trantor wrote:So am i on the american and anglican.
Really? Your English is impressive, I had assumed you spent some time in an English-speaking country in order to gain this level of proficiency.

Now I'm even more impressed.
Trantor wrote:Sorry for that impression,
My bad, sry.
No need to apologize. At all. I can get a bit weird about these sorts of things sometimes. I recognize this sort of weird tetchiness as a personal flaw of mine, but it's one of those things that I only see in hindsight. So, no, I'm sorry.
Trantor wrote:Um, i don´t get the point here?
I ramble when I write and I don't do that good at editing it. Sorry.
Trantor wrote:Their military is already overstressed. I´m sure they just can´t.
Fair enough, I guess. But highly circumstantial.
Trantor wrote:That´s where the Historians come in.
This may just be prejudice on my part, but I do not trust them.
Trantor wrote:No, the whole alliance.
I don't think either the ethical considerations or any specific considerations applied to humanity would make that deep of an impression on species with their collective backs against the wall. Maybe after the war is over there will be some fallout, but I think the Loroi will be able to manage it.
Trantor wrote:As mentioned before, Historians. Feeding us with Loroi-level tech would cost them next to nothing, and they would strongly benefit from the long-term effects.
Feeding us Loroi-level technical schematics would cost them next to nothing, but also be of limited use to us, since we lack the technological development to produce it as-is. Feeding us with large supplies of Loroi-level devices will cost them as much as it costs them to build Loroi warship parts. This cost could instead be spent on Historian warships. I dunno, it seems like a reach to me.
Trantor wrote:Well, the moment the Umiak learn about us it is sealed that they will come after us, no matter how valuable we seem.
They know about us to a limited extent, having surveyed the Bellarmine; they know that there are unknown aliens traipsing about the Steppes and that the Loroi are looking into it. Not useful information.

The moment the Umiak learn about Earth's position they will come after it, but without information sources from inside the Alliance it is unlikely that they will do so through any means save traditional old-fashioned scouting.

However, if the Umiak are expanding as I had thought, that might not take long.
Trantor wrote:That´s why we should approach the others, in particular Historians and Barsam.
The Barsam have no teeth and the Historians may bite us and the Loroi will surely try to bite us for the attempt.

We would have to dance between raindrops without getting wet.
Trantor wrote:Na. the Historians are not stupid,
They are, however, stubborn isolationists who communicate with outsiders by way of artificial personality constructs which the Loroi trust so little that they have as many restrictions as possible in place on construct access to computational resources. I don't think we can place any bets on a competition between the Historian artificial envoys' ability to find and the Loroi ability to conceal information.

Trantor wrote:(If it was an accident, i´m pretty sure there won´t be any consequences, it´s war, shit happens.)
If it was an accident the Historians had a military presence in-system during a battle between Loroi and Umiak forces during which two previous entire Loroi strike groups were destroyed, and did nothing to help.
If it was an accident the Historians sat on their hands and watched as 27's fleet laid ambush again and again to the already-enfeebled Loroi forces.
If it was an accident the Historians had a combat-capable ship hiding in-system for non-combat-related purposes in a position to rendezvous with the enemy.
If it was an accident the Historians, the race most likely to have retained or been able to build a psi-dampener and whom I expect to have feared potential Loroi aggression for longer than the Umiak have been in contact with the Loroi, were still there with a combat-capable starship that traveled from Historian space to this border region without being detected by Loroi farseers just at the moment the Umiak unveiled that they had gained a technology to prevent Farseers from detecting ships properly.
If it was an accident the Historians were obviously doing something untrustworthy and duplicitous and will likely be suspected as enemies of the Loroi Union as soon as the current war ends and the Union can build the next batch of ships and the people in the regions within striking distance of the Historians and the Loroi can expect their worlds to burn as the current war repeats itself, with the Loroi likely having advantages of numbers and production and the Historians having the advantages of superior vessels and solid defensive strategy.

If it was an accident I still expect the fallout to be immense.
Trantor wrote:Yes, but that´s not exactly an argument against my "caught by surprise"-theory.
I see what you did there.
But, how did they react to this surprise? By pulling back and counterstriking years later rather than trying to mount direct defensives. Which seems to me to be a matter of preference rather than ability; if they could have held those worlds at the cost of Historian lives, but chose to get out instead, that says something about their willingness to defend Earth.
Trantor wrote:But one way or another, it was already stated that hey develop slower, the exact set of causes is remain to seen.
True. Though I doubt that the exact set of causes is something that the comic will go into in too much detail. Maybe an Insider article, but I can't really see this comic evolving into something about how office politics work in a Listel research facility. It's only really important to the story that they have historically had a slower rate of development, with why being less significant.
Trantor wrote:You flinching? I thought it was getting interesting at this point?
It is, but the Umiak require an advocate who is better at sifting through the available information than I if they are to be properly represented. I'm more or less half-assing this, and fredge will likely rigorously tear me inside out if I keep it up.

And, besides,
Solemn wrote:…to be perfectly honest trying to argue in favor of the Umiak feels like trying to command the sea to stop rising.
I can see why nobody else wants to do it.

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Trantor
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Re: Page 93

Post by Trantor »

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:No, not absurdly. We´ve already done a good chunk of research ourselves, so getting new tech input over a comparatively short span of time would unleash a kickstart.
I think you probably have more faith in humanity than I do.
I know what we´re able to. Even my humble self was (a small) part in rescuing a (at that time) totally fucked up tech project, the A380; so my conclusion based on experience is:
We humans are good, REALLY good under pressure.
History is full of examples, especially in weapon developement, from ancient greek fire to jet engines and nukes in WW2.
Also organizing: e.g. King Jan Sobieski organized the attack on the Osmans at Vienna 1683 within days after he arrived on the scene, and that was in an aera when negotiations usually were a matter of months, if not years.

Solemn wrote:Let's politely chalk it up to a matter of opinion.
You´re too pessimistic. ;)

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:Um, i think this alliance only turned into an axis when the war broke out. It is more like an expedient community than a marriage in heaven.
The Loroi had already completed several wars, including a near-genocidal suppression campaign against the Mannadi, before this one came around. I don't know if I understand your point here.
But the situation was different back then.
NOW we have a situation where all the races chose the Loroi, EVEN THOUGH they commited these things.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:OT: You study law?
No, but I'm deeply flattered by the question.
Hey, you should. Or pursue a career as lawyer-actor. ;)

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:So am i on the american and anglican.
Really? Your English is impressive, I had assumed you spent some time in an English-speaking country in order to gain this level of proficiency.
No, this is still my school-english back from the 70´s and 80´s. I never stopped practising though, reading books and manuals in (original) english, watching movies and so on. And then came ze internets, and there was not only virtually infinite content, but also online-translators, which made the whole thing easier and quicker to access.
I made holidays in the US and Canada, yes, but only a few weeks alltogether. I won´t return anymore though, ´cause i´m not eager to get my balls groped and my laptop seized by some TSA-*ssh*le.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:Their military is already overstressed. I´m sure they just can´t.
Fair enough, I guess. But highly circumstantial.
Yes, and volatile. Everybody has to act quick now, due to different set of interests of course.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:That´s where the Historians come in.
This may just be prejudice on my part, but I do not trust them.
Me neither. But as i said before, i cannot imagine another scenario at this moment.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:No, the whole alliance.
I don't think either the ethical considerations or any specific considerations applied to humanity would make that deep of an impression on species with their collective backs against the wall. Maybe after the war is over there will be some fallout, but I think the Loroi will be able to manage it.
Possible. But i´m sure this won´t happen at all, because now they simply can´t, and years later the situation will be much different.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:As mentioned before, Historians. Feeding us with Loroi-level tech would cost them next to nothing, and they would strongly benefit from the long-term effects.
Feeding us Loroi-level technical schematics would cost them next to nothing, but also be of limited use to us, since we lack the technological development to produce it as-is. Feeding us with large supplies of Loroi-level devices will cost them as much as it costs them to build Loroi warship parts. This cost could instead be spent on Historian warships. I dunno, it seems like a reach to me.
For now, supplies come at a cost. But we´ll learn quickly, and we´ll be able to produce this stuff by ourself. So in the long run it will be cheaper to pamper us in the first years than to get into an arms race against Loroi/Earth/Whoelse-coalition after the war.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:That´s why we should approach the others, in particular Historians and Barsam.
The Barsam have no teeth and the Historians may bite us and the Loroi will surely try to bite us for the attempt.
Not now. We have to act quickly though.

Solemn wrote:We would have to dance between raindrops without getting wet.
Exactly.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:Na. the Historians are not stupid,
They are, however, stubborn isolationists who communicate with outsiders by way of artificial personality constructs which the Loroi trust so little that they have as many restrictions as possible in place on construct access to computational resources. I don't think we can place any bets on a competition between the Historian artificial envoys' ability to find and the Loroi ability to conceal information.
I respectfully disagree. That construct has seen enough, and i´m sure their intel runs through situation-simulations already.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:(If it was an accident, i´m pretty sure there won´t be any consequences, it´s war, shit happens.)
If it was an accident the Historians had a military presence in-system during a battle between Loroi and Umiak forces during which two previous entire Loroi strike groups were destroyed, and did nothing to help.
IF it were actually a historian ship.

Solemn wrote:If it was an accident the Historians sat on their hands and watched as 27's fleet laid ambush again and again to the already-enfeebled Loroi forces.
I´d somehow expect that from them. :twisted:

Solemn wrote:If it was an accident the Historians had a combat-capable ship hiding in-system for non-combat-related purposes in a position to rendezvous with the enemy.
Hm, IMHO too far fetched. And one ship is maybe a bit few in numbers to intercept. It wasn´t a big ship at all, 300m IIRC.

Solemn wrote:If it was an accident the Historians, the race most likely to have retained or been able to build a psi-dampener and whom I expect to have feared potential Loroi aggression for longer than the Umiak have been in contact with the Loroi, were still there with a combat-capable starship that traveled from Historian space to this border region without being detected by Loroi farseers just at the moment the Umiak unveiled that they had gained a technology to prevent Farseers from detecting ships properly.
Very interesting point, though i wouldn´t draw that conclusion.
Why should the historians help the Umiak? The only reason i could imagine would also help to our case: They don´t want the Loroi become too mighty after all. But they can achieve this by making us their proxies, too. Now, after we showed up, i mean.

Solemn wrote:If it was an accident the Historians were obviously doing something untrustworthy and duplicitous
Depends on how they act and communicate in the wake.

Solemn wrote:and will likely be suspected as enemies of the Loroi Union as soon as the current war ends and the Union can build the next batch of ships and the people in the regions within striking distance of the Historians and the Loroi can expect their worlds to burn as the current war repeats itself, with the Loroi likely having advantages of numbers and production and the Historians having the advantages of superior vessels and solid defensive strategy.
Yes. If they´re on that path.
but in this case i see the Loroi lost anyways, because they can´t win against a combined enemy with superior firepower AND industrial capacity.

Solemn wrote:If it was an accident I still expect the fallout to be immense.
Depends on the outcome.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:Yes, but that´s not exactly an argument against my "caught by surprise"-theory.
I see what you did there.
But, how did they react to this surprise? By pulling back and counterstriking years later rather than trying to mount direct defensives. Which seems to me to be a matter of preference rather than ability; if they could have held those worlds at the cost of Historian lives, but chose to get out instead, that says something about their willingness to defend Earth.
Again, different situation now and then.

Solemn wrote:
Trantor wrote:You flinching? I thought it was getting interesting at this point?
It is, but the Umiak require an advocate who is better at sifting through the available information than I if they are to be properly represented. I'm more or less half-assing this, and fredge will likely rigorously tear me inside out if I keep it up.
Na, don´t be that pessimistic. This was still a good exercise/brainf*ck (-> this a word with positive connotation over here!) on possibilities and strategy.
As Arioch (thankfully) don´t do spoilers on the further story, we have to rely on this. ;)

Solemn wrote: And, besides,
Solemn wrote:…to be perfectly honest trying to argue in favor of the Umiak feels like trying to command the sea to stop rising.
I can see why nobody else wants to do it.
That´s were i thought we´re maybe just too lazy. :)
No, good level of abstraction and experimental approach of yours. Thank you again for the input!
sapere aude.

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