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Post Re: Page 84
Karst45 wrote:
wonder if there were easter egg in that chatter. (reff to homeworld)


Well i know it not really part of this but i did some research and found interresting thing

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Arioch is a long-standing member of the Relic Community, a talented artist, and the creator of the webcomic Outsider, which enjoys a large and growing following both on the forums and elsewhere. However, his greatest contribution to the community has been running the Homeworld Shipyards, an exhaustive reference site listing the details of every ship in the Homeworld universe.

Arioch has his own Easter egg in Homeworld 2. Playing a skirmish under his name and losing will trigger a custom defeat message, saying "Arioch, my voice is sexier." This is Relic's answer to Arioch's questioning of the decision to replace Heidi Ernest as the voice of Fleet Command (Karan S'Jet) for Homeworld 2.


http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/index.php?title=Arioch


argh and yet again when i say something unrelated i get the top post :S


Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:06 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
hi hi

I should really get homeworld and play it now that I have a computer that is capable of running it... But for now, back to work. (working from home is dangerous for those like myself who can't help but check unrelated things online and waste time.)

As long as they are maneuvering freely, any Loroi ship can expect to be within range of their enemy for the same length of time. The ones in front are just within range first and the Umiak might not switch targets during some of the time when their ranges overlap, but in this case the Umiak decided to accelerate to break away rather than flip around and hit them with their big guns as they coasted away or burned to decelerate for another pass.


Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:22 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
Wintermute wrote:
Still, this page raises the question in my mind of exactly how frequent a ship going critical (in the delayed post-damage fashion seen here, where minutes pass from "hit" to "boom") is in the Outsider-verse. Winter Tide being lost in combat I expected, but the manner of it's passing I did not see coming (in that it was a delayed reaction).

The specific reason for the delay was because Moonglow and Ashrain's awkward "wager" exchange would have been even more awkward immediately following the loss of a ship. But I think the delay is somewhat realistic; my readings of military history suggest that ships rarely sink instantly when hit, and often a ship that survived the worst of the battle later succumbs to something much less exciting.

NOMAD wrote:
man the damage didn't look that bad and all from the first hit. I guess that means loroi ships aren't as durable as I first though. But still it doesn't seem fair the damage looked survivable.

It was certainly survivable; Nova was in the process of reporting that she thought if they could get the reactor under control, she would be able to restore main power and make headway. But, c'est la guerre. With a matter-annihilation reactor, I don't think there's much margin between "having problems" and "oops, gone"... not really any time to consider evacuation. And I don't believe that engines with ejectable "warp cores" are practical or desirable in a warship in this milieu.

GeoModder wrote:
Was the commanding officer of Sirocco the most senior in Van Squadron after Winter Tide foundered?

Yes. I have tried to minimize the number of ships and captains that I show in this introductory battle, in an attempt to reduce reader character overload... but I know I'm riding the far edge of that boundary.

Siber wrote:
I would like to say, since I haven't mentioned it before, that I'm throughly impressed by the Umiak ship design in general. They're all very striking.

Thanks Siber! I'm particularly proud of the Umiak ship drawings, perhaps because many of them are done off the cuff without much in the way of prepared designs. And the first panel of page 84 is definitely my favorite (of that page).

CptWinters wrote:
Do the Loroi consider certain positions to be an "honor?" For instance, being a member of the first rank of medieval knights in a charge, or the first centurion in a Roman legion connoted a greater honor and conveyed the skill and experience of those who were in such positions. Do the Loroi have similar sentiments about the physical positioning of their units? Is being placed in command of the center (or the left, or the right, etc.) a reflection of skill or experience, or is it simply based on the vagaries of war, and the decision of the commander?

As a self-described warrior culture, I think it's natural that most Loroi captains will consider it a point of honor to be placed in a position where contact with the enemy is expected and she can demonstrate her abilities. I don't think the Loroi captains actively seek death, but they do seek danger, and they are very professional soldiers; they know death is part of the business. Ashrain did request a transfer from her "safe" Imperial Guard posting to a raider group for this reason, and many of those (captains) in Strike Group 51 are volunteers. That said, in a war as long as this one, with casualty rates so high, those with a "me first!" attitude often won't live very long. So I think in a long war through process of selection you will have many young, aggressive, inexperienced captains, and a few more veteran commanders who are likely to be a bit more cautious.

The Loroi concept of luck holds that a warrior who dies in battle -- even from ancillary causes -- draws misfortune off her comrades and therefore contributes materially to their chances of victory. As such, it is considered unseemly to overly lament a lost comrade, lest her contributions be minimized. Any Loroi who accepts a position of command also knows the Loroi tradition that the destiny of the most brilliant commanders is often to die. That's what makes a commander like Stillstorm so valuable; she is aggressive, sometimes to the point of recklessness, and yet she wins, and survives to bring her experience to the next engagement.

But yes, for the raider groups, they are operating in an environment disconnected with direct contact with headquarters, in which casualties or change in plans or a split in forces can sometimes result in a junior captain suddenly in command of a squadron, changes in assignment can be instant, frequent, and totally subject to the whims of the current commanding officer.

Karst45 wrote:
Arioch has his own Easter egg in Homeworld 2.

arioch_sexier.mp3 You get this message whether you win or lose.

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Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:54 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
I wouldn't necessarily write off the whole crew as lost. There is possibly some survivors, and of those, most likely the furthest from the starboard reactor.


Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:02 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
hi hi

I have to wonder what kinds of radiation treatments the Loroi have, and indeed their level of medical tech in general. They seemed to be able to heal an alien that they'd never seen before anyway. I mention this because if there is anyone still alive on the Winter Tide, as Voitan suggests, they probably just took a huge dose of gamma rays.

((Also, homeworld cataclysm is going for $75 not fair. ;_; ))


Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:22 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
Thanks for the response, Arioch. I'm very interested to see the aftermath of this engagement, and the Loroi reaction to its conclusion.


Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:32 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
icekatze wrote:
(Also, homeworld cataclysm is going for $75 not fair. )

Homeworld had an excellent story, and is worth playing despite the outdated engine. Homeworld 2 had a less impressive story, but is a much more fun and modern game. I would not recommend spending any amount of money (or time) on Cataclysm.

CptWinters wrote:
I'm very interested to see the aftermath of this engagement, and the Loroi reaction to its conclusion.

Me too! We're just a few pages away from the end of the chapter... I'm pretty sure that must be one of the signs of the end-times.

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Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:33 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
@ icekatze and Voitan

there are no survivors because Heck there isn’t a winter tide anymore for that matter.

Loroi ships carry a lot more anti-matter then two or three of the largest torpedoes combined ( more likely closer to a 100 times that or more.) all that exploded inside the ship where armor would be useless even if it could have helped from an explotion that large. the way I see it what's left of the winter tide could fit nicely into the palm of your hand at this point.

I believe that was the point that last white out panel was meant to show.


Last edited by dex drako on Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:22 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
Arioch wrote:
Me too! We're just a few pages away from the end of the chapter... I'm pretty sure that must be one of the signs of the end-times.
It has been awhile; but it's been worth it, as far as I'm concerned-- and I think the results speak for themselves.


Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:24 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
Arioch wrote:
Me too! We're just a few pages away from the end of the chapter... I'm pretty sure that must be one of the signs of the end-times.


Heck, almost to the end of chapter 1 of 7 after almost a decade. Jesus Arioch, you're probably gonna die of old age before you finish this.

I like the last few pages quite a bit, pew-pew lasers and all.

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Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:37 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
Arioch wrote:
[It was certainly survivable; Nova was in the process of reporting that she thought if they could get the reactor under control, she would be able to restore main power and make headway. But, c'est la guerre. With a matter-annihilation reactor, I don't think there's much margin between "having problems" and "oops, gone"... not really any time to consider evacuation. And I don't believe that engines with ejectable "warp cores" are practical or desirable in a warship in this milieu.



Well that make more sense, i just finished reading a book on Japanese Heavy cruisers is WWII and then had a similar, although less advance problem, with their torpedos; since they carried a large load of 24 and each was 1000+kg of a ship killing warhead. I similar problem happen with large ships too ([i] Hood[/i] and the Arizona come to mind)

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Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:15 am
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Post Re: Page 84
Arioch wrote:
CptWinters wrote:
I'm very interested to see the aftermath of this engagement, and the Loroi reaction to its conclusion.

Me too! We're just a few pages away from the end of the chapter... I'm pretty sure that must be one of the signs of the end-times.


:lol:

Let me third that!

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Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:40 am
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Post Re: Page 84
dex drako wrote:
@ icekatze and Voitan

there are no survivors because Heck there isn’t a winter tide anymore for that matter.

Loroi ships carry a lot more anti-matter then two or three of the largest torpedoes combined ( more likely closer to a 100 times that or more.) all that exploded inside the ship where armor would be useless even if it could have helped from an explotion that large. the way I see it what's left of the winter tide could fit nicely into the palm of your hand at this point.

I believe that was the point that last white out panel was meant to show.


There's not yet any indication that the ship's entire stores of fuel were involved, the one white-out panel we saw was of a sphere centered around the engine section. And the command area survived at least long enough to transmit video of them reacting. It may have been just what was in the reactor following an emergency shutdown when the engines and weapons it was supplying were blasted to bits, making for a result similar to a nearby torpedo detonation.

"Foundering" to me implies total, unrecoverable loss of propulsion, not total destruction. However, given the possible radiation release and the shock of the blast (they were getting shaken inside by plasma weapon hits, how hard would a reactor blowing up hit them?), it may be a matter of grabbing some equipment and supplies, recovering bodies (if doing so is a Loroi custom), and scuttling the remains.


Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:29 am
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Post Re: Page 84
Mjolnir wrote:
There's not yet any indication that the ship's entire stores of fuel were involved, the one white-out panel we saw was of a sphere centered around the engine section. And the command area survived at least long enough to transmit video of them reacting. It may have been just what was in the reactor following an emergency shutdown when the engines and weapons it was supplying were blasted to bits, making for a result similar to a nearby torpedo detonation.

"Foundering" to me implies total, unrecoverable loss of propulsion, not total destruction. However, given the possible radiation release and the shock of the blast (they were getting shaken inside by plasma weapon hits, how hard would a reactor blowing up hit them?), it may be a matter of grabbing some equipment and supplies, recovering bodies (if doing so is a Loroi custom), and scuttling the remains.



There were three panels on page 84 that showed the destruction of the winter tide the sphere centered on the engine was only the second panel.

Image

Panel 1 shows the damaged winter tide from a few 100 feet off

Panel 2 shows the start of the explosion as the white spherical blast around the engein from about the same distance out.

Panel 3 is what I was talking about, it happens after the communication failed and shows a complete whiteout. now going with the theme of the last two panels the “camera” in this panel should still be the same few 100 feet off the winter tide and shows the blast has expanded far beyond the limits of the ship.

And that’s why Arioch used the word “foundered” which by definition means “To sink below the surface of the water”. In a naval point of view a foundered ship has totally disappeared beneath the surface of the water not a one that’s damaged but afloat.

The closest idea to that in a space opera like this would be total destruction.

That’s why no ones talking about going to help them.


Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:44 am
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Post Re: Page 84
Sadly, I second draco.

Even if the dynamic of explosion could leave some pockets safe for shockwave, the infernal heat would incinerate everyone and leave the dust on airless space.

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Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:29 am
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Post Re: Page 84
I think without a clear view of the remains, it's not easy to entirely rule out the possibility of survivors.

What if in the ensuing blast, a section of the ship separated before all energy transferred into it?

A lot of things are unlikely, but within the realm of possibility, as was Jardin's survival.

Though if I had to bet on there being any survivors, I'd say none also, but I tend to always keep an open mind until I can see it for myself.


Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:07 am
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Post Re: Page 84
Voitan wrote:
A lot of things are unlikely, but within the realm of possibility, as was Jardin's survival.

As i understood it, Bell had "only" chemical propulsion. 5000 Tons is IMHO a bit much antimatter/nuclear fuel for a small scout vessel.

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Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:50 am
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Post Re: Page 84
Chemical? I thought they were Hydrogen fueled fusion engines.


Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:55 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
hi hi

Well, the Bellarmine certainly wasn't using conventional chemical rockets as we know them today. She's got way too much ∂V for that. Maybe it was a chemical drive enhanced by small amounts of plot-onium? :P

(Also, thanks for the heads up Arioch.)


Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:13 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
Arioch wrote:
Karst45 wrote:
Arioch has his own Easter egg in Homeworld 2.

arioch_sexier.mp3 You get this message whether you win or lose.


yeah i know :) (but i tough it was only on loosing)

It funny that they get programed that only for you to find (i suppose they assumed you would use Arioch as a player name) :P


Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:36 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
random points:

1) "heat" only matters if there is matter to conduct it. Radiation is likely to be the cause of death for the Loroi on the ship, not shrapnel or some sort of pressure wave.

2) It looks more like torpedo scale or smaller explosion to me so either it's the same thing as drawing the ships bigger because at scale they would be specks or it was a "small" loss of containment or whatever

3) foundered means sunk, many ships that were sunk have been dredged up and repaired. So I'm leaning toward Mjolnir's side of it meaning no propulsion. Granted there are maneuvering thrusters so to have complete lack of propulsion there needs to be some catastrophic failure of said system, extensive damage, or perhaps the ship has lost main engines and due to time spent maneuvering has no backup method of moving the ship under its own power.

4) I thought it was some sort of fusion reactor in the Bell and I'm sure those were hydrogen tanks that blew up on the Bellarmine.

-O


Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:40 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
Quote:
1) "heat" only matters if there is matter to conduct it. Radiation is likely to be the cause of death for the Loroi on the ship, not shrapnel or some sort of pressure wave.


... Are you sure you're not thinking of sound? :|


Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:46 pm
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Post Re: Page 84
Karst45 wrote:
It funny that they get programed that only for you to find (i suppose they assumed you would use Arioch as a player name)

They included about a dozen customized win/loss audio files for particular names, most of whom I think were internal testers. Some of the audio clips were straightforward ("Uberjumper is victorious" or "Uberjumper has been defeated"), but a few of which included a little joke ("Wicked cool, eh? Stratus wins! Yeeeha!"). I suspect the one for me was added as an afterthought.

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Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:13 am
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Post Re: Page 84
Well, if I may, the Term " foundered" for the loroi might mean Sunk or destroyed. it could just be a Loroi cultural difference

as for survivors, daco right, not really given the kind of A-matter fuels involved.

as for the bell, it was fusion and Alex was near open space ( IE blasted away instead of killed)

As for the sound bit RE: arioch in homeworld 2. I honestly forgot about that, but it means the staff were for or against arioch ??? not to sure

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Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:23 am
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Post Re: Page 84
bunnyboy wrote:
Even if the dynamic of explosion could leave some pockets safe for shockwave, the infernal heat would incinerate everyone and leave the dust on airless space.


Do your arms instantly cook when you take things out of the oven?

Even small objects can survive direct exposure to a thermonuclear fireball from a device set off in atmosphere, leading to a denser, longer lasting fireball than would be produced in space. Large parts of the ship were armored with material meant to resist laser and plasma weapons and nearby torpedo detonations (which may well involve larger amounts of fuel than was in the reactor at the time, though at a greater distance), and the explosion was a very brief event with little time for heat transfer to large objects before the blast became transparent to radiation and most of the heat was lost to space. Radiation and blast effect are the items of concern, not direct heating...this was a partially internal explosion that vaporized a good chunk of the ship around one reactor, producing plasma that would be violently driven into other parts of the ship, causing widespread damage and pushing any surviving portions at accelerations the intact ship was likely not designed to tolerate.

Radiation might not be an issue if this isn't antimatter, but rather some exotic material that's superficially similar but more suitable for spacecraft power source...this may mean things like energy release in longer wavelength EM or lower energy charged particles for easier conversion to useful power, and not losing half of it to neutrinos. The physical violence of the event is another matter...maybe the gravity control systems can do the job of an Orion's shock absorbers for one shot, but it's also very possible the ship was broken apart by the explosion. My point is just that it's not as certain the ship was totally destroyed as some are claiming, it's only confirmed that it's no longer functioning as a ship.


Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:14 am
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