Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

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Arioch
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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Arioch »

Trantor wrote: I´d rather suggest more research on algae and that kind of stuff. No soil should be abused for fuel, ever.
I agree that conventionally farmed biofuels are a waste of resources, and it will take something like an algae system to be viable on a large scale.

Fotiadis_110
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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

EVERYONE agrees algae seem a really great alternative, yet no one globally has ever made an economic way to turn algae into fuel.
Why?
Because of low energy density and high water content.
By the time you dry them out you've used 90% of the energy profit you could get out of it, and the last 10% isn't enough to pay for the investment into the fuel.

They don't even ferment well :(
So my solution:
Potatos!
they happen to grow in soils that aren't suited to cropping with intensive crops, could be used as a food source for local communities and are filled with starches... also added bonus VODKA!
But setting aside the booze for a moment, they have more energy per gram than algae and thus represent a better energy source.

Although I just had a crazy thought: use solar storage of heat and focusing panels to run the driers of the algae, then burn it for an increased energy profit...
That could work well, but would need ample supplies of seawater AND sunshine.
So the only place it would work well is the Mediterranean and they have oil by the butt-load.
Such is the way the world works I suppose.


FINALLY: regarding rainforests:
Slash and burn agriculture is NECESSARY to survive there due to incredibly low soil fertility, one of the reasons there are so many plants there is because the plants hold all the nutrients that flow through the rivers in the rainforest, gathering and storing them, and then more plants grow on their leaf litter and so-on.
When you want to plant useful crops, the crop takes up the nutrients in the soil, obviously, while rainforest has almost none IN the soil.
Their basic solution has for millenia to burn the forest to put the nutrients back into the soil, grow their crops for a few years and then move on to the next patch.
This is normal and the only problem with modern people doing it, is we do it at a rate of miles each year rather than making a clearing in the forest a dozen meters wide.
With the latter, the forest would regenerate, accumulating nutrients and growing as it does everywhere else.
With the former, the forest would take decades to recover to the point it could be reburnt even if they PLANTED the forest back in place.

I'm not saying it's a good thing they're doing their agriculture this way, far from it, however it's easy for those who grew up on fertile soils that hold the nutrients we put back to forget just what kind of soil they live with.

Honestly? Modern intensive agriculture which was developed for high fertility environments has no place near or in rainforest or similar low fertility environments, and unless people living around there learn and understand that we won't be able to make any progress, and if policy makers keep ignoring the issue then we can anticipate massive starvation in South America, and total deforestation.
...
Why are people such idiots?

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Arioch »

Fotiadis_110 wrote:EVERYONE agrees algae seem a really great alternative, yet no one globally has ever made an economic way to turn algae into fuel.
That's the whole trick, and what they have to figure out to make it work. As you mention, chemical and mechanical processes will use most of the energy you're hoping to get out of the equation, so my bet is on a solution in which the algae are engineered to do the conversion themselves. Obviously that's something that won't be ready any time soon.

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

The main problem with 'tricking' them to make it happen, is not if it can be done, which it can, but how to contain the ones we are tricking to do the job properly, and what ecosystem damage will we do if they get out while we are using it?

Splicing genetics is becoming easier and easier with every half a dozen years or so, as our technology gets better with every iteration, the problem is, while we can make the change, GE is never as simple as we would like.
For instance: GE modified crops are now contaminating most of the worlds soy-bean production and i believe it's the soy-beans who had an added toxin for pest control, which is also rendering the soil poisonous to other living animals like worms and similar which actually improve plant and soil health.
GE is easy.
Containing the change is not so much, particually when people feel they can make a quick buck by selling GE seeds while saying they aren't.

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Arioch »

Fotiadis_110 wrote:The main problem with 'tricking' them to make it happen, is not if it can be done, which it can, but how to contain the ones we are tricking to do the job properly, and what ecosystem damage will we do if they get out while we are using it? Splicing genetics is becoming easier and easier with every half a dozen years or so, as our technology gets better with every iteration, the problem is, while we can make the change, GE is never as simple as we would like.
No argument. Like I said, it's not coming anytime soon.

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Absalom »

Fotiadis_110 wrote:EVERYONE agrees algae seem a really great alternative, yet no one globally has ever made an economic way to turn algae into fuel.
Why?
Because of low energy density and high water content.
By the time you dry them out you've used 90% of the energy profit you could get out of it, and the last 10% isn't enough to pay for the investment into the fuel.
I specifically heard some mention of liquid hydrogen being used to separate out the oil.

You just know that can't be low-energy.
Fotiadis_110 wrote:They don't even ferment well :(
The sugar is in the same mess as everything else, so yeah, no easy fermentation. It would basically require a yeast that can invade cells, and that would be dangerous for EVERYTHING.
Fotiadis_110 wrote:FINALLY: regarding rainforests:
Slash and burn agriculture is NECESSARY to survive there due to incredibly low soil fertility, one of the reasons there are so many plants there is because the plants hold all the nutrients that flow through the rivers in the rainforest, gathering and storing them, and then more plants grow on their leaf litter and so-on.
When you want to plant useful crops, the crop takes up the nutrients in the soil, obviously, while rainforest has almost none IN the soil.
Their basic solution has for millenia to burn the forest to put the nutrients back into the soil, grow their crops for a few years and then move on to the next patch.
This is normal and the only problem with modern people doing it, is we do it at a rate of miles each year rather than making a clearing in the forest a dozen meters wide.
With the latter, the forest would regenerate, accumulating nutrients and growing as it does everywhere else.
With the former, the forest would take decades to recover to the point it could be reburnt even if they PLANTED the forest back in place.

I'm not saying it's a good thing they're doing their agriculture this way, far from it, however it's easy for those who grew up on fertile soils that hold the nutrients we put back to forget just what kind of soil they live with.
Actually, no, they DON'T need to do it. At least, not the way that they actually do.

What it basically comes down to is that the nutrients wind up in the form of ash, and ash easily blows away. Charcoal offers all of the advantages of ash, was traditionally used in some areas of the Amazon basin that still show it's benefits (look up "terra preta"), doesn't blow away, and itself is quite capable of retaining additional nutrients (via the same process that makes charcoal filters effective).

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Karst45 »

Trantor wrote:I´d rather suggest more research on algae and that kind of stuff. No soil should be abused for fuel, ever.
Well there were some research going on that involved recovering the Co2 of a nearby factory (i dont remember what they were doing) and growing algae with it. then with pressure and "crackage" they would turn the algae into fuel. Wonder how much it help. If it was break even but could reduce the Co2 in the air that would be nice ;)

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Overkill Engine »

Absalom wrote:
Fotiadis_110 wrote:EVERYONE agrees algae seem a really great alternative, yet no one globally has ever made an economic way to turn algae into fuel.
Why?
Because of low energy density and high water content.
By the time you dry them out you've used 90% of the energy profit you could get out of it, and the last 10% isn't enough to pay for the investment into the fuel.
I specifically heard some mention of liquid hydrogen being used to separate out the oil.

You just know that can't be low-energy.
...if I had a ready supply of liquid hydrogen to do that with, "Why am I bothering with the oil?" is definitely my question.

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by discord »

mjolnir: was referring mainly to the road heat transfer thing, quite doable really, and secondary the speed bump thing(not realized well, but the basic idea is pretty sound, a question is if it can be made energy efficient, get more energy out compared to how much it takes to build.)

and removing water from algae is simple enough, use dry 'floor' in direct sunlight, wait, not very TIME efficient or man hour efficient, but should work.

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Karst45 »

discord wrote:and removing water from algae is simple enough, use dry 'floor' in direct sunlight, wait, not very TIME efficient or man hour efficient, but should work.


Man hours efficient? You just lets it dry. it not like you need someone to watch it dry (poor guy)

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by discord »

karst: was more thinking about the people having to spread it out, you either need a HUGE factory to do it, with lots of trucks and shit, or do it by hand....the question is which uses more fuel in the end and if either is 'power efficient' as in producing more energy than it takes to produce it....although you could use alternative energy at a net loss to produce a transportable energy i suppose...

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Arioch »

Karst45 wrote: Man hours efficient? You just lets it dry. it not like you need someone to watch it dry (poor guy)
It takes an awful lot of algae to make a barrel of oil, that takes up an awful lot of space wherever it's drying. We're talking acres. It doesn't get spread out or picked up by itself, and it's not a process that's easy to automate, nor is it an efficient use of space.

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Karst45 »

true. but i think they were "pressing" the algae, just like you press fruit to get the juice. but this time they keep the pulp and drop the juice (though that could be used as a natural fertilizer no?

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by Absalom »

I understand that the left-overs are used for various things. Protein for livestock feed, sugars for ethanol, etc.

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by GeoModder »

Starting to sound like our li'le planet really is too small...
Or else we're with too many wandering on it. ;)
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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by junk »

Fotiadis_110 wrote:The main problem with 'tricking' them to make it happen, is not if it can be done, which it can, but how to contain the ones we are tricking to do the job properly, and what ecosystem damage will we do if they get out while we are using it?

Splicing genetics is becoming easier and easier with every half a dozen years or so, as our technology gets better with every iteration, the problem is, while we can make the change, GE is never as simple as we would like.
For instance: GE modified crops are now contaminating most of the worlds soy-bean production and i believe it's the soy-beans who had an added toxin for pest control, which is also rendering the soil poisonous to other living animals like worms and similar which actually improve plant and soil health.
GE is easy.
Containing the change is not so much, particually when people feel they can make a quick buck by selling GE seeds while saying they aren't.
The bigger issue isn't people claiming they aren't selling GE crops but loopholes that are abused to sell them. For instance most of the GE soy is actually banned in Europe for human consumption and that is actually handled very well. More or less nothing does get to your plate.

The bigger issue is with the ban being on human consumption. the absolute majority of GE soy is used as food for livestock. And that undergoes none or very little control. So you might be avoiding GE quite a lot even being against it due to it contaminating the ecosystem but there's very few ways of getting away from it, mostly due to the fact that it's used elsewhere.

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Re: Photo-Voltaic cells Silly use.

Post by GeoModder »

junk wrote:The bigger issue is with the ban being on human consumption. the absolute majority of GE soy is used as food for livestock. And that undergoes none or very little control. So you might be avoiding GE quite a lot even being against it due to it contaminating the ecosystem but there's very few ways of getting away from it, mostly due to the fact that it's used elsewhere.
AFAIK, it's not the soya beans themselves that are used as cattle fodder, but the peel rests when making soy oil (not sure about the correct translation of 'peel').
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