Page 97

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GeoModder
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Re: Page 97

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Wintermute wrote:Edit: Also Geomodder your avatar depresses the hell out of me.
Such are the spoils of war. :(
(I'm awaiting a pic where Jardin has a violent stomach reaction due to his Loroi food experimenting :ugeek: )
Grayhome wrote:The Nissek and the Historians are not members of the Loroi Union, they are members of the Loroi Alliance. The difference between those two institutions is that the union is composed of races the Loroi have either conquered or who have surrendered their liberties in exchange for the security the Loroi have promised them. The Alliance is an organization composed of the Loroi Union, the Historians and the Nissek Hegemony each are separate powers who have allied with each other for the purpose of protecting themselves against Umiak aggression.
You got me there.
Grayhome wrote:It's all there in the History of the war. Reread the page with my words in mind and make the decision for yourselves, to me it looks like the Umiak have been playing the Loroi from the very beginning of the war with the skill of a master.
Mmm, not quite. It's simply the fact the Umiak can keep on sending waves of warfleets one after the other. During the Semoset campaign the Loroi cut-off most likely happened because there were Umiak fleets taking another route to the Loroi border. For all we know those underway fleets were barely warned in advance of the Loroi spearhead in Nelain. The whole History of the War reads to me as the Umiak pounding from all directions they can on their enemy. Its simply impossible for the Umiak along such a huge front to coordinate fleet movements.
Grayhome wrote:Concerning the Golim, an excellent way to make a person your slave is to make that slavery pleasurable. Drugs and drink were common ways for dictators to maintain control of their underclasses in ye olden days of yore, and still are, come to think of it. Anyone for some poppy?
Concerning the Arekka (of whom I am a fan of btw) they have a Loroi military force on the ground and operate under severe restrictions. The Arekka people live under a government that operates through the threat of violence and the use of violence. This is not freedom. When someone controls every aspect of your life including when to end that life then it is (to me at least) slavery.
The Loroi didn't make the Golim susceptible to their telepathic abilities. Its a situation they found. But admittedly, they partially exploited it. But I'm also pretty sure you won't find many Loroi on Golim-Chei. Circumstances there are simply too hostile to them. The off-world Golim on the other hand are free bait so to speak.
For the Arekka, the Germans between the end of WWII and the fall of the Soviet Union as comparison? ;)
Grayhome wrote:From what I have been able to determine from Arioch's writings, the Loroi consider all other races in the galaxy to be their servants, either conquered or waiting to be conquered. Also, the Loroi regularly practice psionic mind muckery to dominate or influence others. Your definition seems to prove my points very well, thank you for it.
To me it more looks like the Loroi consider their alien contacts' martial capabilities inferior unless proven otherwise. If there was a total imperial dictatorship in effect, I don't think alien contractors would get a benefit for manufacturing over their Loroi counterparts. Its just so that (most of) current Loroi society is heavily stratified, and the Loroi military happen to be the best among the races that compose the Union. Other races' abilities are appearantly quite recognized and appreciated (see the Neridi and Pipolsid).
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Arioch
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Re: Page 97

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A few points of information related to the discussion:
  • The Loroi tend to be isolationist more than expansionist, and most of their interstellar expansions have come as an unexpected by-product of defeating someone who attacked them first. The only interstellar war that the Loroi deliberately started was the Third Mannadi War (and that after the Mannadi had started the first two). In all other cases, it was the other side that declared war first... though in some cases such as the Tithric, the Loroi had taken provocative action beforehand. It's true that the Loroi are arrogant and consider themselves superior (a natural result of always winning), but they are more Spartan than Roman in the sense that they are usually content with the status quo rather than actively seeking expansion.

    The peacetime expansion into the Seren sector under Emperor Eighth Dawn is the notable exception to this rule.
  • The Loroi did not actually attack the Morat in 2135, but instead launched an attack on Umiak positions through Morat territory. It was certainly an illegal incursion, but they weren't invading Morat planets or anything like that.
  • Since the Loroi themselves live under a military dictatorship, the average Loroi individual doesn't have any more say in government than an individual of a Union member species. Actually, a typical non-Loroi Union member individual has a lot more say in their local government than a Loroi typical individual does.
  • Regarding expansion of non-Loroi Union races: colonial franchises are granted by the Union Assembly (which is Loroi-dominated), so requests from Loroi political friends (Neridi, Barsam, Pipolsid) are granted, while requests from Loroi political enemies (Arekka, Delrias, Mannadi) are denied. The Neridi have been the most prolific of the colonizers, but the Barsam have been at work in this area as well. The Pipolsid mostly set up new colonies in the oceans of worlds already inhabited by other races.
  • Azimol was not originally a Morat system, but it was under occupation by Morat forces at the start of the Loroi Semoset offensive.

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Grayhome
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Re: Page 97

Post by Grayhome »

This is most informative Arioch thank you.

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Re: Page 97

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GeoModder wrote: Such are the spoils of war.
"Spoils of war" by way means goods obtained by looting. I think you may have meant something else.

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Re: Page 97

Post by manticore7 »

whats Loroi foreign Policy like during peace time? If the TCA had encountered the Loroi at peace would the Humans be forced to join the Loroi Union?
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Re: Page 97

Post by Tamren »

Arioch wrote:
GeoModder wrote: Such are the spoils of war.
"Spoils of war" by way means goods obtained by looting. I think you may have meant something else.
"Wages of sin" maybe?

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Re: Page 97

Post by Solemn »

Tamren wrote:
Arioch wrote:
GeoModder wrote: Such are the spoils of war.
"Spoils of war" by way means goods obtained by looting. I think you may have meant something else.
"Wages of sin" maybe?
"Fortunes of war," I should think.

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Re: Page 97

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manticore7 wrote:If the TCA had encountered the Loroi at peace would the Humans be forced to join the Loroi Union?
No.

The anti-neutrality policy did not exist before the war, but Humanity would not be required to join the Union in any event. The wartime policy is specific to the current conflict and stipulates only that failure to declare war on the Umiak constitutes casus belli against the Loroi.

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Re: Page 97

Post by fredgiblet »

Grayhome wrote:The Loroi lost when they grew complacent and allowed the Umiak to overrun and destroy their veteran forces in the beginning of the war.
An extremely biased view of events. The Umiak launched a sudden, massive invasion. The Loroi had no way of knowing that such an invasion was planned. The Insider doesn't go into too much detail but I suspect that the Loroi thought there was a great deal more diplomatic maneuvering to be done before any sort of war would start.
The Loroi lost when they forced the Morat to ally with the Umiak to expel their invasion. Any and all Morat systems claimed or destroyed by Loroi are not particularly relevant, the Morat are not the Umiak and the Umiak could care less about what happens to their slaves. Destroying the Morat's war industry does not halt the Umiak's ability to wage war, it does however help the Umiak further influence their now weakened Morat ally.
A calculated risk. The Loroi likely did not believe they would lose such an invasion, thus leaving the Morat under THEIR control and giving the Morat the options of allowing them to pass through or fight a superior military that hadn't lost a war yet. The Loroi were over-confident, but then that was because they'd rarely, if ever, lost before.
The Loroi Lost when they made an enemy in the Tithric they did not need and obliterated civilian population centers. No one will ever surrender to the Loroi ever again, all wars will be a matter of survival vs extinction. Again, this action does not harm the Umiak's ability to wage war in the slightest, it does help their cause by giving the Umiak ammunition for their propaganda machine. If anyone does not understand the value of this then there are no words I say that can influence you in regards to anything. This action was, in my opinion, the most harmful to the Loroi war effort of the entire war.
It's amusing that you call this a loss, since if they HADN'T done this they would most likely have lost the war by this point. Their actions with the Tithric is why they are still able to fight today. Had they left the Tithric alone, or spent years trying to diplomatically bring them to heel the result could very well have been the loss of the war.

The Tithric DIDN'T surrender to the Loroi, the lesson that other races should pull from the Tithric Genocide isn't "don't surrender to the Loroi" it's "don't fuck around with the Loroi and expect them to be nice".

The actions taken against the Tithric most certainly DO harm the Umiak as the buffer zone created in the Steppes allows the Loroi to effectively defend themselves.

Regarding propaganda, I think you vastly over-value it. Unaligned races are very unlikely to encounter both species at the same time, if they are encountered first by the Umiak then they will, one way or another, join the Umiak. The only instance where I can see this being a serious issue is if both sides encounter a race that's too strong to cow at the same time. On the flip side, if the Loroi successfully execute an offensive the Umiak vassals that are aware of the genocide will take the Loroi very seriously when they say "surrender or else".

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Re: Page 97

Post by Durabys »

Arioch wrote:
manticore7 wrote:If the TCA had encountered the Loroi at peace would the Humans be forced to join the Loroi Union?
No.

The anti-neutrality policy did not exist before the war, but Humanity would not be required to join the Union in any event. The wartime policy is specific to the current conflict and stipulates only that failure to declare war on the Umiak constitutes casus belli against the Loroi.
So if humanity declares clearly that they are joining the Loroi side and ally with them and help them with their industry and military - will the Loroi, after the war is finished, still attempt to screw us over? That is the most important question of the day, ladies and gentlmen.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. - If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

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Re: Page 97

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Durabys wrote:So if humanity declares clearly that they are joining the Loroi side and ally with them and help them with their industry and military - will the Loroi, after the war is finished, still attempt to screw us over? That is the most important question of the day, ladies and gentlmen.
Bow Chicka Wow wow.

Well the best case scenario would be a Loroi Empire which wins and is so brutalized/devastated by the war that they are unable to maintain control over the Union. (Nissek, Basaram and other groups start asserting more influence.) Under such a scenario, humanity might have room to expand and maintain independence (if we align ourselves with the correct parties.)
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Re: Page 97

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The most likely answer is no. As Arioch stated, the Loroi tend towards isolationism rather than expansionism.

The most likely result of a Loroi Victory with humanity on their side will be a terse and distant relationship. They'll send a few of their misfits and Xenophiles our way and keep up some pretense of formal contact, but by and large they'll mind their own business and try not to entangle themselves in galactic affairs. Worst case scenario has them simply walling themselves off and blowing up anyone straying too far into their territory after being politely told to fuck off or die.

Unless humanity does something royally stupid like piss the Loroi off. We know what happens then.
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Count Casimir
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Re: Page 97

Post by Count Casimir »

Razor One wrote:We know what happens then.

Snusnu?

EDIT: Angry Snusnu? Even better!
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Re: Page 97

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Razor One wrote:The most likely result of a Loroi Victory with humanity on their side will be a terse and distant relationship. They'll send a few of their misfits and Xenophiles our way and keep up some pretense of formal contact, but by and large they'll mind their own business and try not to entangle themselves in galactic affairs.
With our resemblance there´s maybe more in it.
Count Casimir wrote:Snusnu?
Maybe. :D (Or should i say "hopefully"?) 8-)
Razor One wrote:Unless humanity does something royally stupid like piss the Loroi off.
So i hope they won´t clone our current foreign minister and send him there... :mrgreen:
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 97

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Ktrain wrote:
Durabys wrote:So if humanity declares clearly that they are joining the Loroi side and ally with them and help them with their industry and military - will the Loroi, after the war is finished, still attempt to screw us over? That is the most important question of the day, ladies and gentlmen.
Bow Chicka Wow wow.

Well the best case scenario would be a Loroi Empire which wins and is so brutalized/devastated by the war that they are unable to maintain control over the Union. (Nissek, Basaram and other groups start asserting more influence.) Under such a scenario, humanity might have room to expand and maintain independence (if we align ourselves with the correct parties.)
Well I get the impression that Loroi might get nervous from one important fact. It seems that humans are better at population booming than the loroi are. Probably in part due to their cultural|very spartan (or in this case amazon) upbringing with the ship units and all. Feels they aren't exactly build into the same population explosions that we are.

What was it recently? That we hit 7 billion? Now imagine that population power spreading out to other planets. You have a species very similar to loroi, a species that is historically warlike and probably will continue to be so in the future, a species with a biological prospect for some xenophobia, with booming population and quickly growing technology base.

There's actually things to be concerned over in that.

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Re: Page 97

Post by TrashMan »

Hm...
Umiak expansionist and not-nice to union memers.
Loroi isolationist and nice to union-members.

Every new snippet of info paints the Loroi better and better and Umiak worse and worse.

Not that it matters ultimatively. You know most of us would go for hot space-elves regardless.

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Re: Page 97

Post by GeoModder »

Arioch wrote:
GeoModder wrote: Such are the spoils of war.
"Spoils of war" by way means goods obtained by looting. I think you may have meant something else.
Erm... yes, you're right. Meant more something like the "sways of war" or "ways of war".

And thanks as well for the clarification in your previous post.
fredgiblet wrote:Regarding propaganda, I think you vastly over-value it. Unaligned races are very unlikely to encounter both species at the same time, if they are encountered first by the Umiak then they will, one way or another, join the Umiak. The only instance where I can see this being a serious issue is if both sides encounter a race that's too strong to cow at the same time. On the flip side, if the Loroi successfully execute an offensive the Umiak vassals that are aware of the genocide will take the Loroi very seriously when they say "surrender or else".
I bet ya the Umiak wouldn't even leave the option of surrender open to one of their vassals so unfortunate to be the target of a Loroi offensive.
One ship a planet loaded with a bunch of nukes is all it takes to destroy all interesting stuff groundside.
junk wrote:Well I get the impression that Loroi might get nervous from one important fact. It seems that humans are better at population booming than the loroi are. Probably in part due to their cultural|very spartan (or in this case amazon) upbringing with the ship units and all. Feels they aren't exactly build into the same population explosions that we are.

What was it recently? That we hit 7 billion? Now imagine that population power spreading out to other planets. You have a species very similar to loroi, a species that is historically warlike and probably will continue to be so in the future, a species with a biological prospect for some xenophobia, with booming population and quickly growing technology base.
Not really. Loroi are actively constraining their reproduction capabilities during peacetime (restrictive access to the males and such). And their generation turn-over is at least twice as short as human's.
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Re: Page 97

Post by Durabys »

Trantor wrote:
Razor One wrote:The most likely result of a Loroi Victory with humanity on their side will be a terse and distant relationship. They'll send a few of their misfits and Xenophiles our way and keep up some pretense of formal contact, but by and large they'll mind their own business and try not to entangle themselves in galactic affairs.
With our resemblance there´s maybe more in it.

SNIPPET ...
Just great! :? They will be sending their versions of sexual deviants our way. :shock:
Si vis pacem, para bellum. - If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

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Re: Page 97

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Durabys wrote:
Trantor wrote:With our resemblance there´s maybe more in it.

SNIPPET ...
Just great! :? They will be sending their versions of sexual deviants our way. :shock:
Bring ´em on!

"Recreation Park Earth" :mrgreen:


Edit: As Beryl pointed out, Loroi males need lotsa snusnu. But how about the females? Arioch?
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 97

Post by Durabys »

Trantor wrote:
Durabys wrote:
Trantor wrote:With our resemblance there´s maybe more in it.

SNIPPET ...
Just great! :? They will be sending their versions of sexual deviants our way. :shock:
Bring ´em on!

"Recreation Park Earth" :mrgreen:


Edit: As Beryl pointed out, Loroi males need lotsa snusnu. But how about the females? Arioch?
I don't know Trantor but do you notice that it seems that it is precisely the opposite case for Human sexual potency then for the Loroi one. That means - theoretically/physiologically speaking - that most human women could have even a dozen males a day and be abbsolutely fine afterwards *which became an actual fact again ... because the last 8k years of rampant patriarchate have been literally beating this behaviour out of the women population until recently*. *thinks over what he just come up with ... makes phychological equations by combining the variable of Loroi males and Human females ... gears in brain screech to a halt! :shock: *

HUMAN MEN AND LOROI WOMEN! We have a massive problem incoming! :o
Si vis pacem, para bellum. - If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

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