Armor values

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Wintermute
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Re: Armor values

Post by Wintermute »

BattleRaptor wrote:Terran ships would be protected agasint Terran weapons and railguns seem to be there main weapon and the armor wouldnt work.
I'm not sure why you think this. This hasn't been mentioned anywhere insofar as I know. I also think it doesn't make sense to armor your ships against a weapon that both imparts an unblock-able amount of kinetic energy and also has beyond abysmal accuracy. The negatives from carrying that amount of armor would I think far outweigh the benefits, literally.
IT has been satated Terrans use MORE armor then the Loroi or even Umiak because they dont have shields.
Pretty sure it hasn't.

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Trantor
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Re: Armor values

Post by Trantor »

Arioch wrote:Finally, evasive maneuvers need to be considered.
How about Jumps?
Facing a superior fleet at high speed, couldn´t jumping in right behind them be a useful tactic?
sapere aude.

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Rosen_Ritter_1
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Re: Armor values

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

Trantor wrote:
Arioch wrote:Finally, evasive maneuvers need to be considered.
How about Jumps?
Facing a superior fleet at high speed, couldn´t jumping in right behind them be a useful tactic?
There's an entire insider article about this. I recall that it was basically, you can only jump into a system at certain points, and it's not really precise enough to drop you behind any particular point.

There's also the matter of coordination, considering that nobody has FTL tech.

fredgiblet
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Re: Armor values

Post by fredgiblet »

BattleRaptor wrote: then simply Terran ships would be protected agasint Terran weapons and railguns seem to be there main weapon and the armor wouldnt work.
An America-class cruiser could cripple the Cry Of The Wind with a single salvo if it was close enough. Chances are good that an America-class cruiser could fuck up an ultra-heavy Umiak ship if it got close enough. There is no way for human ships to be armored enough to take a hit from a heavy mass driver and still be mobile. The best defense against mass drivers isn't armor, it's mobility, the effective ranges are so short on mass drivers that dodging is FAR more cost-effective than armor.

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Trantor
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Re: Armor values

Post by Trantor »

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:
Trantor wrote:How about Jumps?
Facing a superior fleet at high speed, couldn´t jumping in right behind them be a useful tactic?
There's an entire insider article about this. I recall that it was basically, you can only jump into a system at certain points, and it's not really precise enough to drop you behind any particular point.
Ah yes, the Gravity Wells! I remember! Thx, i´ll go and look it up.
sapere aude.

TrashMan
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Re: Armor values

Post by TrashMan »

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:
TrashMan wrote:You shouldn't really put any values under too much scrutiny.
Blaster (beam cannons) should have just as big range/damage problems as lasers, but the description mentions the Loroi found a way around it. If he chose to, he could have just as easily written that humans found ways to get rid of all friction in mass drivers...or something.
No. Not as easily. Since the premise for the story is that humanity is technologically inferior to the Loroi/Umiak.

That's one reason why I DO like sitting down and thinking about the Outsider background extensively. Because Airoch HAS managed to achieve a high level of consistency to his partially realistic tech.
Of course it wouldn 't make sense for his story, I'm just saying that he can find away around any technical/science problem if he wants to and it fits with his design.
Science if importanat and I love realism, but it's not really NECESSARY to allway follow it to the letter. The mass driver/blaster thing was just an example. Arioch could have easily made mass driver the most advanced weapon and give it to Loroi, and have humans with primitive blasters.

EDIT: Rosenritter? LoGH? :mrgreen:

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Arioch
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Re: Armor values

Post by Arioch »

The damage numbers in that old weapons table and the new armor rating numbers have nothing to do with each other.

However, it's true that a Terran heavy cruiser's armor wouldn't stand up very well to a mass driver hit, because the Terrans don't have anything that can stand up to that kind of damage. Even in the Terran realm of space combat (6G acceleration, ~10-30,000km ranges), it's hard to hit an accelerating target with a mass driver. The Terrans would use mass drivers a bit like the Umiak use torpedoes: en masse and with the intent more of influencing the target's behavior than of expecting hits.

TrashMan
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Re: Armor values

Post by TrashMan »

Interesting to note that once you start fielding weapons with enough potency, no armor can catch up anymore.

Armor technology has fallen way below weapon tech. There really is no practical armor, short of unobtanium/handwavium that can protect you from things like nukes and advanced mass-drivers, or wave-looms.

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Rosen_Ritter_1
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Re: Armor values

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

TrashMan wrote: EDIT: Rosenritter? LoGH? :mrgreen:
You know it :mrgreen: Haven't gotten around to watching all of it, but been liking what I see. One of the better sci-fi anime out there.

(plus random screen caps. Dear lord! This series looks so stupid from the random screen caps!)
TrashMan wrote: Armor technology has fallen way below weapon tech. There really is no practical armor, short of unobtanium/handwavium that can protect you from things like nukes and advanced mass-drivers, or wave-looms.
Hence people coming up with things like energy shields that could stand up to enemy damage.

BattleRaptor
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Re: Armor values

Post by BattleRaptor »

Arioch
Well if the old damage tables are no longer relevent that changes things.

Because a Terran Heavy Cruiser that has less armor and no screens, carries more BEAM firepower based on them then a Loroi Vessal of the same size designed to take on ships that would seem to have around 80armor+Screens and destroy them on mass.

Majincarne
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Re: Armor values

Post by Majincarne »

You know it Haven't gotten around to watching all of it, but been liking what I see. One of the better sci-fi anime out there.

(plus random screen caps. Dear lord! This series looks so stupid from the random screen caps!)
What like this?
Image

I loved that series. If you asked me to say whether Gunbuster or LOGH was better all you would hear from me for a while was a lot of stammering and half starts of words.

Tash
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Re: Armor values

Post by Tash »

Majincarne wrote: What like this?
Image

I loved that series. If you asked me to say whether Gunbuster or LOGH was better all you would hear from me for a while was a lot of stammering and half starts of words.
The thing about Gunbuster is, it's wonderful because it's ridiculous and makes use of this wonderful little trope.

LoGH does too, but it takes a more serious and, sometimes, dark approach to it. It's less about being hot-blooded, unless your name happens to begin with B and end with ittenfeld, and more about politics and broad tactics. Yes, I'm using those words to describe a series wherein, during several battles, both Yang and Reinhard fire so many neutron beams that they make giant neutron beams, like every fleet is a Death Star waiting to happen.

They're both great series, but Yoshiki Tanaka is my favorite madman and LoGH is my favorite series. It influences my own writing heavily. <3

Battleraptor:
If I recall properly- It's entirely possible I'm incorrect- it has been stated that Terrans use more armor relative to the amount Loroi use per size, but Loroi armor is still objectively better. That's an important distinction.

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Grayhome
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Re: Armor values

Post by Grayhome »

I have noticed many similarities between the Outsider-verse and the Master of Orion 2 verse, I hope no one will find it presumptuous of me to guess at a few things using MoO2 rules.

The Umiak have tier 1: Titanium Armor The most basic grade of ship-building metal, known in many forums as "cardboard" or "tissue" because such ships are ridiculously fragile.

The Loroi possess tier 2 armor (and only by the grace of their Historian allies research treaties): Tritanium Armor
Twice as tough as Titanium Armor; gives ground combat units a +10% bonus; makes missiles and fighters tougher. The first armor that's fit for combat.

With the Historians it is harder to gauge, we've seen too little of them for me to make an assessment of their armor values. I would guess at their possession of either

Neutronium Armor The 2nd best armor you can research, 50% tougher than Zortrium; also gives ground combat units a bonus of +20%; makes missiles and fighters tougher.

or perhaps the more advanced

Adamantium Armor The best armor you can research, twice as tough as Zortrium; also gives ground combat units a bonus of +25%; makes missiles and fighters tougher.

The Umiak are using heavy armor on all of their ships which triples their armor values, if we divide their armor by 3 we can see their armor is quite comparable to the Terran vessels. I believe the Terrans possess Titanium armor.

All information is from http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Master_of_ ... /Chemistry at times it is inaccurate, but is reliable overall, I think. Great game by the way. I purchased it for the first time after following Outsider for a while and reading through the inspirations section.

TrashMan
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Re: Armor values

Post by TrashMan »

Majincarne wrote:
You know it Haven't gotten around to watching all of it, but been liking what I see. One of the better sci-fi anime out there.
You havn't seen all of it yet?

Well..I can tell you that the ending is....unexpected. Heck, after episode 70 (or 80), things start to get totally unpredictable.
Just odn't get attached to ANY character...and I do mean ANY. :cry:

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Rosen_Ritter_1
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Re: Armor values

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

Majincarne wrote:
You know it Haven't gotten around to watching all of it, but been liking what I see. One of the better sci-fi anime out there.

(plus random screen caps. Dear lord! This series looks so stupid from the random screen caps!)
What like this?
Image

I loved that series. If you asked me to say whether Gunbuster or LOGH was better all you would hear from me for a while was a lot of stammering and half starts of words.
I've got to seriously get around to watching more LOGH. Shit is awesome.

Tamren
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Re: Armor values

Post by Tamren »

dfacto wrote:Image
Sexy beast.

I always thought the front of the turret had a huge shot trap on it though.

dfacto
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Re: Armor values

Post by dfacto »

Well most tanks have that to some extent, though the Leopard's really is huge.

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Trantor
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Re: Armor values

Post by Trantor »

dfacto wrote:Well most tanks have that to some extent, though the Leopard's really is huge.
Yes, that´s an issue heavily critized from the beginning on. Internal composition of the shield lessens it a bit, but it is still a flaw.
sapere aude.

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