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More Page 88 speculation 
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:21 am
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Post More Page 88 speculation
In page 88 KIKITIK 27 seems to indicate that they have found a way around the lotai. So I was thinking if we assume that perhaps the secret of the lotai is not as well kept as we believed, and the Umiak have known of it for some time, how might they circumvent it? Would a Farseer detect a sleeper? Someone in suspended animation? If would could place the entire crew of a battle fleet in suspended animation; could we slip them past that defensive line? Could we rely on AI and scout fleets and to deflect trouble away from our sleepers and keep them safe tell they can awaken?

I'm sure one of you guys have posted this thought already, if so please link me to the post.


Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:23 am
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Post Re: More Page 88 speculation
Sicne I knew what to search for, I had an advantage.
Not really gonna comment myself here, just pasting some comments from Arioch here, they might be helpful in answering your questions.
(Original post can be found by clicking the author of the quote)
Arioch wrote:
Literally freezing humans (and most organisms) causes permanent tissue damage; the damage can be reduced by quick-freezing, but I'm not sure it can be eliminated entirely. "Hypersleep" in most settings (2001/2010, Alien/Aliens, Avatar, etc.) is usually not literally "freezing" the subject but rather putting them into some form of cold-temperature hibernation. You can see from the displays that they still have brain and cardiovascular activity.

Some settings like Niven's Ringworld series have temporal stasis fields that literally put an organism in suspended animation, but Umiak don't have the technology for anything like this. But I'm not sure that even that would work... detection of the mental signature is more or less instantaneous and therefore might not be dependent on the flow of time.

An Umiak will still be detectable by a Farseer even if it is sleeping or hibernating or anything similar, short of actually killing it. Telepathy in outsider requires that there is some sort of physical characteristic to consciousness; Farseers aren't detecting brainwaves or thought, they're detecting the physical presence of the mind.

Arioch wrote:
Hālian wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Telepathy in outsider requires that sentience itself has some physical, persistent property; it's not the physical brain or the brain activity, but some sort of metaphysical state that exists from moment to moment.

Something something fourth spatial dimension?

I think there are a number of useful ways to visualize it. There's an element to it though that should be deliberately mysterious; "this is something that the ancients had mastery of but we really don't understand today."

[...]

inxsi wrote:
Is that amongst any minds or amongst minds of the same species? For example, do they have any issues detecting Rigai Mozin when he is on board the Tempest?

Individual minds are more difficult to resolve from amongst a group nearby, especially at great range, whereas a lone mind is like a candle in a great dark place. The Farseer on board Tempest would have no difficulty detecting the presence of Mozin aboard the same ship, but another Farseer in a different system might have some difficulty identifying a single Barsam mind amongst ~800 Loroi.


Arioch wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
You could still use a fleet which is automated to a very significant degree. Farseers detect concentrations of minds at distance, they can't, say, pinpoint a single shuttleful of folks at interstellar distance, IIRC.

This is incorrect; Farseers can detect a single Umiak mind, if it's the only mind in a star system. What they would have trouble with is distinguishing it amongst other minds nearby.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Also, if Farseers detect the physical presence of brains, that raises the question of how, when Loroi brains and, say, Umiak brains are almost certainly extremely different - topographically if nothing else.

Again, Farseers are not detecting the physical brain; they are detecting the mind, or consciousness itself.


No particular order to the quotes.
Have fun.

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Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:43 am
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Post Re: More Page 88 speculation
Kind of makes me wonder how a hive-mind would appear to a farseer. As a bonfire? A diffuse glow? As many lights all flickering in unison?

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Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:02 am
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Post Re: More Page 88 speculation
CF2 wrote:
Kind of makes me wonder how a hive-mind would appear to a farseer. As a bonfire? A diffuse glow? As many lights all flickering in unison?


If a single mind appears as a dot of light, a concentration of single minds in a volume of space (say, aboard a starship or station) appears as an area of light. Farseers are unable to tell ships apart in a fleet or count them or the number of their crew (limited to a few->some->a lot->oh s*it run!) or tell the difference between a fleet docked at a naval base, an ambush or a planetside colony. That's pretty much how the Loroi Navy lost the battle of Tasinei Ways, by the way.

Consequently and in my opinion, a hive mind should appear like a large concentration of individual minds located in a volume of space and should be indistinguishable from regular minds, at least without in-depth analysis.


Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:42 am
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Post Re: More Page 88 speculation
entity2636 wrote:
Consequently and in my opinion, a hive mind should appear like a large concentration of individual minds located in a volume of space and should be indistinguishable from regular minds, at least without in-depth analysis.


Ah, but farsensing detects consciousness or some intrinsic quality of sentience generated by the individual.

Arioch wrote:
it's not the physical brain or the brain activity, but some sort of metaphysical state that exists from moment to moment.


So in theory a hive mind would be like one consciousness inhabiting a very large area. Or potentially a single location and the networked bodies it controls would appear as non-sentient and invisible, similar to humans. Which is perhaps how the Umiak have managed their stealthy invasion, assuming networked bodies can be controlled at stellar distances without some direct physical link.

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Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:06 pm
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Post Re: More Page 88 speculation
CF2 wrote:
So in theory a hive mind would be like one consciousness inhabiting a very large area. Or potentially a single location and the networked bodies it controls would appear as non-sentient and invisible, similar to humans.


That would be how I would imagine it, yes. By the way, I imagine a single mind would appear to a farseer like Alex is seeing Fireblade's signature through Beryl on Page 134, Frame 6.

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Which is perhaps how the Umiak have managed their stealthy invasion, assuming networked bodies can be controlled at stellar distances without some direct physical link.


That's a long shot and comes down to the Umiak having acquired their own telepathy and farseeing because no conventional FTL comms exist in the Outsiderverse. The only known form of FTL communication is telepathy, and, come to think of it, it appears to work on the principles of quantum entanglement. An interesting thought would be the Umiak having obtained technological means of FTL communication and detection, seeing how they obviously coordinate their forces in Leido and neighboring systems in real time.


Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:18 am
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