Page 99

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Arioch
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Re: Page 99

Post by Arioch »

junk wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:
javcs wrote:I think it'd be more like one of the Spec Ops branches than Army, since Fireblade's an Unsheathed.
According to the ranks page in the Insider, it would be the USMC.
Isn't the USMC basically just the army with foreign deployment capacity? At least I get that impression from the US military. In essence no different from armies of other nations. I doubt germans for instance make any distinction between the two on their own turf.

And the unsheated are indeed closer to Seals, deltas, SAS, czech 1st paras and similar units.
The Unsheathed don't have a direct analogue in our modern military; they are "marines" in the sense that they are shipboard infantry, distinct from the regular crew, but so are the dedicated Soroin security officers (such as Reed and Flint). Unsheathed are few in number, but they aren't really "special forces", as their operations aren't usually covert; they're deployed as officers with the regular Soroin troops. They're sort of a dedicated infantry officer corps. Or kind of like having a Cave Troll in your unit of Orcs.

As to the difference between the US Army and US Marines, that's a discussion on its own. The US Marines are unusual in that they're an indepedent armed service (whereas most marine services are a division of the Navy), and though the US Marines have a very strong internal cutlure that's distinct from the Army's, in terms of equipment and capability, there's a great deal of overlap between the two (especially in a modern environment where aircraft have made amphibious landings more or less obsolete).

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Re: Page 99

Post by Mr Bojangles »

junk wrote: Isn't the USMC basically just the army with foreign deployment capacity? At least I get that impression from the US military. In essence no different from armies of other nations. I doubt germans for instance make any distinction between the two on their own turf.
It is not. The US Army is fully capable of foreign deployment. They make up a majority of the forces in Afghanistan, and made up of a majority of the forces in Iraq. The US Marine Corps is a wholly independent armed force, though it has close military ties with the US Navy, and in terms of civilian leadership, it falls under the US Department of the Navy.

The first major difference between the US Army and the USMC is that the Army is solely land-based. Furthermore, the US Army is purposely limited to land-based theatres of operation. By and large, they must rely on the US Air Force for fixed-wing air support (ground attack, bombing, and they have no significant airlift capacity). The US Army almost exclusively uses rotary-wing aircraft. They have no naval capacity, either. Additionally, they aren't necessarily a rapid deploy force.

The USMC, by contrast, is a rapid deploy force. They are able to perform nearly all of the functions of the other armed forces. They maintain infantry, armor, air (fixed and rotary), and thanks to the Navy have a massive sea lift capacity. All of these components are fully organic, and this is the idea behind the modern Corps. To be able to provide overwhelming force, anywhere on the globe, from the land, air and sea, within days, and then be able to hold whatever they take until the much larger Army can move in and occupy the territory (the Corps takes, but is too small to hold onto territory; that's what the Army does). It is quite literally possible for an entire Marine division to be deployed halfway around the world within a week.
Arioch wrote: The Unsheathed don't have a direct analogue in our modern military; they are "marines" in the sense that they are shipboard infantry, distinct from the regular crew, but so are the dedicated Soroin security officers (such as Reed and Flint). Unsheathed are few in number, but they aren't really "special forces", as their operations aren't usually covert; they're deployed as officers with the regular Soroin troops. They're sort of a dedicated infantry officer corps. Or kind of like having a Cave Troll in your unit of Orcs.

As to the difference between the US Army and US Marines, that's a discussion on its own. The US Marines are unusual in that they're an indepedent armed service (whereas most marine services are a division of the Navy), and though the US Marines have a very strong internal cutlure that's distinct from the Army's, in terms of equipment and capability, there's a great deal of overlap between the two (especially in a modern environment where aircraft have made amphibious landings more or less obsolete).
While I can't speak to how the Unsheathed would fit into current US armed forces, and I already touched on the differences between the US Army and the USMC, I can say that amphibious landings aren't anywhere near obsolete. Of all the nations of the world, only 48 are fully landlocked (yay, Google). And, to date, no aircraft can carry and deploy the amount of men and materiel that a ship can (it would take multiple aircraft with multiple trips to do so). It can take the US Army months to fully deploy a division. The USMC can do it days from a couple of ships.

This, of course, doesn't deny the vital role air support plays in deployment. In fact, the USMC make heavy use of it as a spearhead to make way for the larger sea-based forces. The US Army makes extensive use of it as well to get boots on the ground as quickly as possible. But, believe it or not, when it comes to getting their armor and a bulk of their personnel onto a battlefield, the US Army uses the US Navy.

Also, none of this is to disparage what the US Army does. I grew up in the armed services; my father is a career Marine. I am fully aware of the sacrifice all of our servicemen and -women make. I'm only trying to point out the two different, but overlapping, roles the US Army and USMC fulfill.

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Re: Page 99

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

I was thinking to myself for a while trying to pick an apt measurement for an unsheathed in a combat force.

My first attempt was they are officers... which they aren't really.
Then I pictured them as a detachment from a machine gun division, which would be about right, a force multiplying, specialist combat group with a major supporting role.
Which lead me to picture them as a personal artillery battery, which doesn't quite work.

Then I realised what the Unsheathed really contribute:
Absolutely dominating firepower, with no reasonable counter.
They are an infantry version of close air support ^_^.

And speaking of close air support: I recall reading about the US Army, and their determination to keep A10's (one of my favorite aircraft) in their close air support role, while the Air Force keeps wanting to upgrade those big slow old aircraft to something that matches the rest of their force.
Didn't we discover that Phantoms (and similar high performance aircraft) make worthless close air support in Vietnam?
Silly USAAF
Last edited by Fotiadis_110 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Page 99

Post by Mr Bojangles »

Maybe Unsheathed would be the equivalent of a shock troop?

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Re: Page 99

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

Mr Bojangles wrote:Maybe Unsheathed would be the equivalent of a shock troop?
Shock troops, Elite forces, and similar groups are normally utilised in groups, to break hardened targets.
Unsheathed are both highly valuable, and also remarkably vulnerable to attack, clustering them into units like a shock troop would actually diminish their value.
To be blunt: you are better off giving one guy in the squad a bazooka, rather than all of them.
They are force multipliers, rather than shock troops.
Hence: they really are much like close air support rather than say tanks.
I imagine they would have some of their unsheathed built into Elite forces contingents but you don't normally split those forces up among normal troops.

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Re: Page 99

Post by Mr Bojangles »

Fotiadis_110 wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:Maybe Unsheathed would be the equivalent of a shock troop?
Shock troops, Elite forces, and similar groups are normally utilised in groups, to break hardened targets.
Unsheathed are both highly valuable, and also remarkably vulnerable to attack, clustering them into units like a shock troop would actually diminish their value.
To be blunt: you are better off giving one guy in the squad a bazooka, rather than all of them.
They are force multipliers, rather than shock troops.
Hence: they really are much like close air support rather than say tanks.
I imagine they would have some of their unsheathed built into Elite forces contingents but you don't normally split those forces up among normal troops.
Shock troops were intended to break hardened targets, yes. Historically, they were also meant to spearhead assaults, penetrate enemy formations and attack vulnerable rearward positions. Shock troops are also force multipliers; they are generally small units, highly mobile, capable of autonomous actions and typically carry an inordinate amount of destructive ability. They would be useless otherwise.

Unsheathed are highly valuable and powerful, but I would debate their being remarkably vulnerable, at least in relation to any other properly organized and equipped unit. So, I agree with you that they would likely fulfill the role of a heavy weapon specialist in a modern Army or Marine squad. Or, as Arioch states, would fulfill the role of an officer with deployed infantry, due to their abilities and training.

My original thought was couched in the second part of the historical shock troop definition. A squad of Unsheathed, with all the bells and whistles that Loroi military tech and training can give them, would actually be the perfect shock troop. Small, fast and capable of massive telekinetic destruction. They could punch big holes in enemy forward lines and completely disrupt rear supply lines.

I think that ultimately, though, you are correct in how they would actually be deployed. Not because of their "vulnerability," but because of their relatively small numbers (according to Arioch) and the fact that modern militaries don't actually need shock troops anymore (I can only imagine Loroi combat doctrine wouldn't need them, either, being "more modern").

And this isn't even considering the fact that engaging in ground combat is pretty much a suicidal waste of life and resources in the current war...

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Re: Page 99

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Mr Bojangles wrote: While I can't speak to how the Unsheathed would fit into current US armed forces, and I already touched on the differences between the US Army and the USMC, I can say that amphibious landings aren't anywhere near obsolete. Of all the nations of the world, only 48 are fully landlocked (yay, Google). And, to date, no aircraft can carry and deploy the amount of men and materiel that a ship can (it would take multiple aircraft with multiple trips to do so).

Naval transport is certainly not obsolete, but you don't have to be Marines to be transported on a ship. The US Marines haven't conducted an actual amphibious assault in more than 60 years.

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Re: Page 99

Post by Mr Bojangles »

Arioch wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote: While I can't speak to how the Unsheathed would fit into current US armed forces, and I already touched on the differences between the US Army and the USMC, I can say that amphibious landings aren't anywhere near obsolete. Of all the nations of the world, only 48 are fully landlocked (yay, Google). And, to date, no aircraft can carry and deploy the amount of men and materiel that a ship can (it would take multiple aircraft with multiple trips to do so).

Naval transport is certainly not obsolete, but you don't have to be Marines to be transported on a ship. The US Marines haven't conducted an actual amphibious assault in more than 60 years.
If we're talking about assaults on the scale of the Pacific theatre of WWII, then no, there haven't been any like that. Otherwise, the most recent amphibious assault carried out by the USMC (that I know of) was in 2003 on Al Faw Peninsula during the Iraqi War. It was small, but it counts. I believe there were a few during the Korean and Vietnam Wars, as well. If we are just talking about landing and deploying a force, that is, not fighting its way up the beach, Marine forces are almost entirely deployed by sea from a coast, not a dock.

Ultimately, the amphibious assaults of WWII aren't necessary. Modern military doctrine and capabilities have rendered them largely redundant. By the time the expeditionary fleet arrives offshore, anyone defending the coast has been mangled by airstrikes and sea-based missile strikes. And, no, you don't need to be a Marine to be transported on a ship, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Every military that is serious about deploying massive force needs a Navy. :P

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Re: Page 99

Post by Arioch »

Mr Bojangles wrote: I believe there were a few during the Korean and Vietnam Wars, as well.
The last one was Inchon in Korea, in 1950.
Mr Bojangles wrote:Ultimately, the amphibious assaults of WWII aren't necessary.
That's all I was saying.

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Re: Page 99

Post by bunnyboy »

Solemn wrote: Loroi 1: Yeah. He is singlehandedly making the Fire Demon even worse. He shouldn't have made her lose control of her bladder like that. Who could possibly have known that putting a warrior's hand in a bowl of warm water while they slept would do that?
Loroi 2: Nobody. Because nobody could sneak up on a warrior, physically touch the warrior's hand, and physically place the warrior's hand in a bowl of warm water in the middle of the night without waking her up. Nobody has that sort of lotai.
This and rest. Best fanfic ever. :shock: :lol:
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Re: Page 99

Post by GeoModder »

Trantor wrote:Also back OnT: Is Reed going "Reedshirt"?
Nah. Neither her hair, uniform, or suit are red.
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Re: Page 99

Post by Trantor »

GeoModder wrote:
Trantor wrote:Also back OnT: Is Reed going "Reedshirt"?
Nah. Neither her hair, uniform, or suit are red.
Hm, i vaguely remember Ariochs comments about bodycount...
Last edited by Trantor on Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 99

Post by GeoModder »

Trantor wrote:Hm, i vaguely remember Ariochs comments about bodycount...
But... Winter Tide already foundered! :(
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