The Aircraft Image Posting Contest

[ed_montague]

...Japan is still using F-4 Phantom II's? HAHAHAHAHA

And the US is still using the B-52, which is even older.

Old joke: How do you break up a game of Bingo in Iraq?

Shout "B-52!"

...how can we keep making these jokes if they retire the old BUFF?

[fredgiblet]

...Japan is still using F-4 Phantom II's? HAHAHAHAHA

Meh. They've got us, why would they need to rush to replace their aircraft? Also they have more F-15s than F-4s and if you count the F-2 and F-15 then they have twice as many modern fighters as F-4s. That's also without counting the trainers which are probably fully functional.

[TeidarPallanLeinnol]

arioch: sounds like suboptimal soldier material.

Why else would she be on an outdated vessel with a green crew on the front line?

BECAUSE (1) THERE'S A WAR ON (2) THE WAR OFFICE IS RUNNING LOW ON MONEY

[Mikk]

MORE LIKE AIRCRAFT IMAGE PISSING CONTEST

One, turn off Caps lock.

NO

Please turn Caps Lock off.

And since I notice you've mentioned "case sensitivity is a bitch":
please turn caps lock off.

[JQBogus]

...how can we keep making these jokes if they retire the old BUFF?

Back when I used to play SFB, we joked that on some backwater Federation colony the B-52 was up to model W, refitted to be warp capable....

[Absalom]

Don't be ridiculous, the Federation doesn't have warships, just engineers . Also, making Star Trek aliens fight those strikes me as mean (consider: 'carpet bombing' an enemy starship with photon torpedoes).

Edit: Though, thinking about it, the Klingons might be impressed: "Your great-great-great-great-grandfather flew this into battle and it still works?" Tourism would be inevitable.

[junk]

Don't be ridiculous, the Federation doesn't have warships, just engineers . Also, making Star Trek aliens fight those strikes me as mean (consider: 'carpet bombing' an enemy starship with photon torpedoes).

Edit: Though, thinking about it, the Klingons might be impressed: "Your great-great-great-great-grandfather flew this into battle and it still works?" Tourism would be inevitable.

Wasn't the defiant a warship?

Also century old ships that still work - the cligons would love wh40k imperium then.

[Karst45]

well the federation have a lots of warship. but you moslty see "exploration" and "science" ship in the show.

How else would you be able to keep your hold on such a vast empire... surely not with thankful wishing. They are just shy to call them warship. But i consider that "Tactical cruiser" and "escort" are warship with pretty name.

[junk]

well the federation have a lots of warship. but you moslty see "exploration" and "science" ship in the show.

How else would you be able to keep your hold on such a vast empire... surely not with thankful wishing. They are just shy to call them warship. But i consider that "Tactical cruiser" and "escort" are warship with pretty name.

Well as far as I know the defiant was their first ship designed for actual warfare. Everything else was a civilian ship with tacked on weapons. And I think they did actually mostly maintain the empire on nothing but good will.

[NOMAD]

I believe karst got it on the nose federation does have combat ships, its just not really brought up in movie and TV series. I got a model fo the enterprise-E and can be classified as a battle cruiser.

the defiant was the first combat only designed ship the federation built, in order to counter the borg incursions. its ended up being used for the war against the Dominion in DS9 ( and a camo in the Star Trek first contact movie).

[discord]

yup, all other ships in starfleet is 'theoretically' civilian ships, and they have civilian aspects and uses but usually solidly built with a hostile environment in mind.

but the defiant class is the first true 'warship' in starfleet, where even the lip service that it is anything else was tossed out.
examples.
enterprise-E large staterooms for everyone with families, defiant double bunking closets.
enterprise university level medical facilities with R'n'D capacity, defiant has a first aid station.
weapon and defensive systems....almost equal despite HUGE difference in size.
mobility hugely in favor of defiant.

and finally if the above are not enough, there are CIVILIANS on enterprise crew rooster, only military on defiant.

[Karst45]

The enterprise (in the new generation) was a galaxie class. an science vessel, so comparing a science vessel to a dedicated warship dont make sense
If your comparing the Enterprise from the original serie, Well at that time line most starship were patrol and colony support ship.

The enterprise NX from the serie of the same name, was one of the first starship, they quickly become an support/escort ship at the edge of being a warship. And that only because it need to fill the role the situation required.

[Fotiadis_110]

Karst: based on what you say the ship was built for that purpose, to be able to adapt to whatever role was required, civilian, research, military, education, diplomacy and so forth.
Such a ship is not a purpose built warship in the first place, instead the craft is a multi-purpose star-ship capable of taking whatever role it needed as the situation changed.

So arguably the whole 'Dauntless as first true warship' idea is sound, as all other classes are adaptable, but a Dauntless would make a poor research ship even if you tried to make the refit possible, and as such when outside of wartime it represents a fairly poor ship in a general sense as it is less useful in other tasks than shooting other guys.

[javcs]

The NX-01 Enterprise was initially an armed exploration ship - and a prototype/testbed vessel as well. Not a dedicated warship, although as the series progressed it received multiple upgrades to its combat abilities.

The NCC-1701 Enterprise from TOS was a Constitution class. The Connies were ... heavy cruisers, with a hefty dose of multirole capability as well - "ongoing 5-year mission of exploration" and all that. They're one of the heavy combatants of their time - nominally a match for any Klingon warship of their era in a stand-up engagement, and generally outmatching the Romulan warships of the time in a stand-up engagement.

The NCC-1701-A Enterprise was a refitted Constitution. The refits are/were sometimes called Enterprise class. However, largely identical purpose and role as the original Constitutions. They're one of the heavy combatants of their time - nominally a match for any Klingon warship of their era in a stand-up engagement, and generally outmatching the Romulan warships of the time in a stand-up engagement.

The NCC-1701-B Enterprise was an Excelsior class. Might have been a modified Excelsior, can't remember for sure. The Excelsior class was basically a the next step up from an Constitution(refit or otherwise) - designed taking into account the experiences had with the Constitutions. Largely similar role and purpose as the Constitutions, with some improvements in combat capabilities, and the attendant bonuses, upgrade, and benefits inherent in being a design 20?+ years younger/newer than the Constitution. They're one of the heavy combatants of their time - nominally superior to any Klingon warship of their era in a stand-up engagement, and generally outmatching the Romulan warships of the time in a stand-up engagement.

The NCC-1701-C Enterprise was an Ambassador class. Ambassadors are basically one of intermediary steps between the Excelsior and the Galaxy classes, though the Ambassador is the one immediately prior to the Galaxy. Again, multi-role, exploration, science, and diplomatic needs, while being a heavy combatant. Nominally equal or superior to equal numbers of any Klingon or Romulan warship of their time; generally considered somewhat superior to Cardassian warships of the time.

The NCC-1701-D Enterprise was a Galaxy class. The Galaxy is/was, at the time of their introduction, arguably the single most powerful combatant in explored/known space, outmatching any Klingon, Romulan, or Cardassian warship of the time under normal conditions. The Galaxy was, again, not a dedicated warship, but also a multi-role ship with exploration, science, and diplomatic purposes - and the families of crew members onboard.

The NCC-1701-E Enterprise is a Sovereign class. The Sovereign class was designed roughly at the same time the Defiant class was. However, while the Defiant was designed as an 'escort' - it was not designed as a long-range, long duration exploration ship. The Defiant class, apparently, has landing gear - designed for landing in StarBase docking bays. The Defiant was not designed to be a flagship - the Defiant was designed to fight the Borg threat, and was designed with few other roles.


The Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, and Sovereign classes all held approximately the same roles in the fleet at the time of their designs and introductions. None of them were designed solely as dedicated warships - although with the design of the Sovereign class, combat functions became far more important, thanks to the awareness of the Borg threat.

A Constitution could execute General Order Number 24? I think it's GO.24 - which is the directive to destroy a world - in a matter of hours.
When you can do that and carry a large amount of materials and equipment suitable for other needs, transforming your ship into a capable multi-role vessel without significant negative impacts upon your combat capabilities - and if your environment is such that multi-role functionality is more relevant than pure combat capability, what reason do you use to justify dedicated warships instead of multi-role vessels? You can't, barring a new threat that drastically changes the anticipated threat environment.

When your technical capabilities and resource base permit generalist ships, and your political and threat environment means you don't need much in the way of dedicated warships, and instead generalist capabilities are considered 'more important', well ... you build the best combat ships you can in conjunction with the generalist capabilities, until something changes the environment and peoples' minds about fleet needs.
Something like encountering the Borg, and then the Dominion.


Enterprise-E would hand the Defiant its ass in a fight. Ent-E is a larger vessel, with more powerful shields, heavier armor, more torp launchers (and deeper magazines), with more, and more powerful, phaser banks (though Defiant has its forward pulse phasers).


Starfleet ships aren't 'civilian' by any definition I am aware of. However .. the ones the series focus on tend to be the generalist types, because that's the kind of series that they are. And, then of course, there's Rodenberry's rule that the solution is never supposed to be purely violence, but rather that trickery, cleverness, and diplomacy are supposed to be the solutions.

[NOMAD]

very well said javcs,

the point is resolve ( i believe)

but just a question, Voyage was an interpid class vessal, I believe it was a short range explore type ? or am i wrong ?

[javcs]

very well said javcs,

the point is resolve ( i believe)

but just a question, Voyage was an interpid class vessal, I believe it was a short range explore type ? or am i wrong ?

The Intrepid class was ... a light cruiser? Not short ranged, but not designed as a long ranged/duration ship (ie, not designed for the '5-year mission of exploration') either ... more of an intermediate grade of ship. Perhaps more akin to a 'modern' equivalent of a Miranda class, aka the Reliant from Wrath of Khan, although since Mirandas were fielded in the Dominion war, that may not be the best comparison.
And, of course, there's the brilliance of sending it out while not fully equipped, crewed, or supplied.

In the Equinox episodes, we see an example of a a Nova class, which were 'surveyors' - that's a relatively short-ranged ship.

[bunnyboy]

In shortly, Enterprice is Mary Sue class, no matter whitch era it is.

[javcs]

In shortly, Enterprice is Mary Sue class, no matter whitch era it is.

How so?

[Karst45]

So arguably the whole 'Dauntless as first true warship' idea is sound, as all other classes are adaptable, but a Dauntless would make a poor research ship even if you tried to make the refit possible, and as such when outside of wartime it represents a fairly poor ship in a general sense as it is less useful in other tasks than shooting other guys.

It the Defiant but still

Am not saying the Defiant is not a warship or not the first dedicated warship, what i was saying all along and tryed to bring back on track is that Starfleet have other warship, they just are too shy to call them warship and refer to them as "tactical" or "escort"

[Karst45]

In shortly, Enterprice is Mary Sue class, no matter whitch era it is.

am inclined to agree... but Mary sue dont tend to die... but the enterprise "died" 4 time (A-B-C-D)