The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread.

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Arioch
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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Arioch »

Durabys wrote:Idiot Ball by TV tropes and idioms - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall - it is also called Authorial Fiat by some.
So... what you're saying is that the Outsider races are "idiot balled"?

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by ed_montague »

Arioch wrote:
Durabys wrote:Idiot Ball by TV tropes and idioms - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall - it is also called Authorial Fiat by some.
So... what you're saying is that the Outsider races are "idiot balled"?
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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Absalom »

Durabys wrote:UPDATED: How is that game called Absalom?
It doesn't need a name right now, because other than allocating Action Points to players (to restrict how much they can do in a turn), I'm not certain for to deal with various things (especially the Politics/Diplomacy duality).
Arioch wrote:
Durabys wrote:Idiot Ball by TV tropes and idioms - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall - it is also called Authorial Fiat by some.
So... what you're saying is that the Outsider races are "idiot balled"?
Yeah, I don't think he caught that counter-point to "post-scarcity" that I mentioned several posts back.

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Durabys »

Arioch wrote:
Durabys wrote:Idiot Ball by TV tropes and idioms - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall - it is also called Authorial Fiat by some.
So... what you're saying is that the Outsider races are "idiot balled"?
More like "simplified", a typical space opera like Mass Effect &co. It would take you years just to write down the story and a decade of non stop drawing to make the comics if you choose to go down the route of, for example, Ian Banks.

It may look like a personal attack - but it is not from my point of view *I have diagnosed low case ADHD , so I have the social skills of a rock :( *.

If you retort that I am critising you I will reply that you are one of the few who have the talent to pull it off if they really threw a lot of time at it. I will confess I wouldn't be capable to do it.
Absalom wrote:
Durabys wrote:UPDATED: How is that game called Absalom?
It doesn't need a name right now, because other than allocating Action Points to players (to restrict how much they can do in a turn), I'm not certain for to deal with various things (especially the Politics/Diplomacy duality).
Arioch wrote:
Durabys wrote:Idiot Ball by TV tropes and idioms - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall - it is also called Authorial Fiat by some.
So... what you're saying is that the Outsider races are "idiot balled"?
Yeah, I don't think he caught that counter-point to "post-scarcity" that I mentioned several posts back.
Now I am confused. You are talking about me or Arioch? :?
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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

Scarcity: is the minimisation or lack of something.

Posts are what we do to forums.

If you insist on our making posts almost empty, then there is very little content which makes understanding the point of view of others is difficult at best.

YES i make walls of text, and explain my point of view clearly, it is a part of how i deal with my own ADHD, by covering all parts of my idea and logic, it becomes more obvious to others what I am thinking allowing you a snapshot into my idea properly rather than allowing others to draw their own (often incorrect) conclusions about what I am trying to say.

Then you go and say i'm not allowed to explain myself v_v

And manage to imply the races of outsider have been hit with the idiot stick (that is what idiot-balled implies, although it also means that the races were hit by the stick due to the story reasons), I must say oh that part I disagree, although their ability to stop and investigate the world around them (ok universe then :P) is limited due to that other guy intending to kill them all if they so much as sneeze at the wrong time.

And Arioch was trying to ask you what weaknesses you had seen in his character and race designs, because tbh if you stop and read the MASSIVE walls of text in insider you get a very strong and understanding view into how these races think, live and act according to their own experiences, cultures and viewpoints on the universe.
I'm bit sure that writing a written history of their entire world, every person who lived in it, and might perhaps be a great grand parent of someone who was shown in the story for a single picture or closer related would have very little to add to the story, and would certainly slow down the rate of production of the comic.
Don't give the almighty a reason to not show us his loverly pictures. ._.

If someone said your delighted creation was somehow stupid Durabys, without a word of explanation about what part showed such silliness I'd anticipate you'd be a bit offended yourself would you not?

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Durabys »

Ok. Good points Fotiadis_110, but ...

Idiot balled due to plot and time constraints. If Arioch went with true realism he/she would spend the next ten years with fleshing out the story - so instead he/she simplified it, which is good for the speed of updates *now a lot of you think Arioch updates slowly, I on the other hand thinks he/she updates quite fast actually if only a single person works on the story and comic itself*.

For your information - nearly every godamn story writer and movie/tv-serie director out there idiot balls his/her creation because of A) limited understanding of the full nature of the universe he/she created and so cannot fully comperhend how to make the characters use the in-universe resources competently (that is not the case with Arioch) or B) time or money constrains. So when I said Arioch 'Idiot-balled it' , it was neither criticism or a compliment BUT a statement of a general fact.

Do you know how much money graphic artists and CGI wizards want these days - it is getting worse, just the Battle over Antarctica in SG1 Season 7 finale has eaten a budget equivalent to the actors wages for the next two seasons or the budget of Avatar was 90% of graphic artists salaries.

Next thing is time. Time is money too. The longer it takes Arioch to create his/hers story and comic drawings, the less he/she has time for a life and also for his/hers job. Which is a problem. So 'simplifying' things is the way to go.

If anyone will still point out that I insulted Arioch and that I should apologize myself for it then I am informing you that for something I didn't do in the first place I won't apologize myself for, end of line. This is becoming ridiculous people. I am spent and I have enough of this pointless debate. Can we frackin get over with this and continue with fleshing out the RP instead of the stupid guilt-poiting please.

UPDATED: If Arioch wants to continue to discuss with me the way I seemed to talk about him and Outsider, then he can communicate-it with me over PM's.

PS: Personally, I have very good opinions of Arioch. 8-)
Si vis pacem, para bellum. - If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Grayhome »

Writing up a quick dissertation on over a dozen alien races who have recorded history dating back several thousand years would be quite a monumental feat. I believe that Durabys was attempting to underline this without meaning to insult Arioch.
Last edited by Grayhome on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Iskander »

Once again, there have been 4X space-based boardgames.

http://billinghurst.spalding.gen.nz/Web ... paign.html

The issue is that none of us have a copy of anything like that and I don't think you could find complete rules online. And the above looks rather complicated.

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Durabys »

Grayhome wrote:Writing up a quick dissertation on over a dozen alien races who have recorded history dating back several thousand years would be quite a monumental feat.
Exactly. Arioch's summaries are nice. Really nice. As in 'better then most authors would do'. But it still wouldnd't be neough for the comic if Arioch went with realism.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. - If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Absalom »

Durabys wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Arioch wrote:So... what you're saying is that the Outsider races are "idiot balled"?
Yeah, I don't think he caught that counter-point to "post-scarcity" that I mentioned several posts back.
Now I am confused. You are talking about me or Arioch? :?
To Arioch, about you.

Incidentally, if your "idiot-balled" assessment is based on a perception of a lack of post-scarcity in the comic, then I disagree with you.

When two post-scarcity civilizations wage war against each other, the term "post-scarcity" no longer applies. Post-scarcity only applies when production meets or exceeds the reasonable demands of the entire group that it applies to. When two post-scarcity civilization go to war against each other their individual production demands are very simply "as much as it takes to kill the other guy". Thus, it either doesn't deserve to be called a war even if it is one (a more deserved description would be "one-sided slaughter"), or the civilizations in question are by definition not post-scarcity for the duration of the war, because during the war there is demand that isn't met.

Additionally, if production is slow enough, then even your production capacity doesn't matter. Instead, only the forces that you already have available matter, because the war will be decided by already existing forces before newly produced/trained units can reach the battlefield (this is a large part of why the US maintains such a large standing military; the same goes for a number of other nations).

In addition to that, if the opposing standing forces can penetrate far enough beyond your borders with sufficient military force, then even the forces that you currently have won't decide the victor, because you will automatically lose in case of war! All that you can do is return the favor, because you can't defend yourself (this is what the US faced from the Soviet Union during the Cold War).

In short, civilizations that are genuinely waging war (instead of just bullying someone else) are INHERENTLY NOT post-scarcity, by virtue of the very fact that they're in the middle of a war.


If you labelled the characters idiot-balled for some other reason, then you should post that reason.
Fotiadis_110 wrote:If someone said your delighted creation was somehow stupid Durabys, without a word of explanation about what part showed such silliness I'd anticipate you'd be a bit offended yourself would you not?
Personally, I'd tend to think they were fools (however, I work with the public, where fools are readily available...).
Durabys wrote:Idiot balled due to plot and time constraints. If Arioch went with true realism he/she would spend the next ten years with fleshing out the story - so instead he/she simplified it,
I read the TvTropes page, so I know full-well that idiot-balled DOES NOT mean what you just said. Idiot-balling is when the author turns one or more characters into (either metaphorical or literal) idiots, basically always for story reasons. Simplifying IS NOT idiot-balling.
Durabys wrote:For your information - nearly every godamn story writer and movie/tv-serie director out there idiot balls his/her creation because of A) limited understanding of the full nature of the universe he/she created and so cannot fully comperhend how to make the characters use the in-universe resources competently (that is not the case with Arioch) or B) time or money constrains. So when I said Arioch 'Idiot-balled it' , it was neither criticism or a compliment BUT a statement of a general fact.
You have given us no reason to believe that your assessment is correct. Everything that we've seen from the characters is perfectly reasonable (why no human post-scarcity? 1: how do you know that it doesn't exist? 2: post-scarcity is only one of several paths for the future, it is foolish to blindly assume it).
Durabys wrote:Do you know how much money graphic artists and CGI wizards want these days - it is getting worse, just the Battle over Antarctica in SG1 Season 7 finale has eaten a budget equivalent to the actors wages for the next two seasons or the budget of Avatar was 90% of graphic artists salaries.

Next thing is time. Time is money too. The longer it takes Arioch to create his/hers story and comic drawings, the less he/she has time for a life and also for his/hers job. Which is a problem. So 'simplifying' things is the way to go.
Do you know how much time is involved in all of that? They were paid that much because they had to do a massive amount of work.
Durabys wrote:If anyone will still point out that I insulted Arioch and that I should apologize myself for it then I am informing you that for something I didn't do in the first place I won't apologize myself for, end of line.
I never thought you were trying to insult him, my assessment is that you're saying something ridiculous.
Iskander wrote:Once again, there have been 4X space-based boardgames.

http://billinghurst.spalding.gen.nz/Web ... paign.html

The issue is that none of us have a copy of anything like that and I don't think you could find complete rules online. And the above looks rather complicated.
Also, anything based on a formal map like that strikes me as unsuitable for a forum game (unless someone wants to write a server-side plug-in).

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Durabys »

Ok Absalom. I can agree with the above sentiment and idea that you presented. Thank you. Will think about it.

On the topic of Outsider itself - I won't continue to discuss my previous idiocy. The only think I am sorry about is that I wasn't specific enough and called it idiot balled instead of simplified.

We should now continue to discuss the resource system. The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that the resource should be as simple as possible which is 'industrial capacity' and be done with it. With "idustrial" I mean the original latin meaning of the word and not the current one - industria = ACTIVITY. ACTIVITY POINTS - From factories, through R&D centers, to mineral deposits and espionage agencies &ect - each one of them produces activity points that enable you to build or do something. Finishing research on better reactors and manufacturing techniques or the success of your espionage will increase income of AP's in the next turn.

Simple.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. - If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Iskander »

I did find some nice, simple campaign rules:

http://firedrake.org/roger/ft/campaignft2.html

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Durabys »

Iskander wrote:I did find some nice, simple campaign rules:

http://firedrake.org/roger/ft/campaignft2.html
Interesting. 8-) Thanks.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. - If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

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Re: The War In Heaven: The Epic Role Play , the ideas thread

Post by Hālian »

Bump.
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