Page 101: And I will take VERY good care of you!

[fredgiblet]

I'm thinking Talon.

[Razor One]

<Snip>

An earlier version of the scene in which Alex meets Tempo had Alex offering his hand in greeting, and Tempo just staring at it in puzzlement (a variant of that interchange is coming up shortly with a different character).

Reminds me of this old scene, around the 2:30 mark.



I suspect if given that explanation for the handshake, the Loroi might come to (begrudgingly) respect the gesture, even if they don't go for it.

[Karst45]

(a variant of that interchange is coming up shortly with a different character).

I bet 50 points it Alex with another loroi!

I have a guess who it is, but I seem to always be wrong in my speculative story guesses, so I'll just wait until it happens.

Well we can strike out the emperor... he not dumb enough to just shake hand with the highest ranking loroi.

So if i have to pinpoint it ether the pilot of the shuttle (talon? spiral?) or a loroi we haven seen yet. Maybe WelcomeRain?

[ed_montague]

Hm. It would be interesting to see Loroi anthropologists puzzling over that particular gesture. One can imagine them accepting it as a sort of primitive proof of non-hostility that humans have developed in lieu of sanzai. Wasn't that how the handshake originally developed?

[Karst45]

One could interpret it that way.

Could be also an: i so dont trust you that i need to hold the hand that could draw a sword at me.

[ed_montague]

One could interpret it that way.

Could be also an: i so dont trust you that i need to hold the hand that could draw a sword at me.

True. I was once part of the Scouts, a rather interesting organization (a paramilitary group founded to teach young boys how to survive at war, a goal which it has apparently succeeded--in Vietnam, American soldiers who were Scouts survived better than others, I think). Their position on homosexuality is a wee bit backwards, and the participants either don't take the mythos seriously or are dangerously committed--but it's interesting nonetheless. There was this story about how Baden-Powell visited Kenya or some other sufficiently foreign place, noticed the natives greeting each other by clasping their left hand (which was used to carry a shield with, symbolism alert) and was so enthralled that he had the Scouts adopt the tradition by shaking hands with the left (because it's "closer to the heart" which is a load of shit because the heart is located in pretty much the centre of your chest) which signifies trust because you trust the other bastard not to have a knife in his other hand.

So if you do it that way it's even more of a trust symbol.

[Muttley]

True. I was once part of the Scouts, a rather interesting organization (a paramilitary group founded to teach young boys how to survive at war, a goal which it has apparently succeeded--in Vietnam, American soldiers who were Scouts survived better than others, I think).

HotButton time. I'm a Queen's Scout and have very strong positive memories of my years spent in Scouting.

Soldiers who had Scouting experience (note - America was not the only nation providing "good-guy" troops in Vietnam) were better prepared *as people* by their Scouting background. Scouting does not teach overtly military skills. It aims to prepare people to be self-reliant, free-thinking Good Citizens. Heady, dangerous stuff. Look up the nations who have suppressed Scouting if you want any evidence for that.

Scouts, at least as originated by Robert Baden-Powell, were emphatically NOT para-military (a term that was not known at the time in any case). BP's idea was to do something to provide an organisation that would appeal to young boys more than gathering in gangs to perform mischief. The something was outdoor activities based around his experience of training scouts in the army. His initial title for the movement was "Peace Scouts". But as the link below shows, it was a book he'd written while in the army that had been bought and adopted by boys of their own accord, because it was fun, and what they wanted to do. He rewrote "Aids to Scouting" into "Scouting for Boys" and the rest is history.

http://www.thescoutingpages.org.uk/history.html

Please note that the impetus came from the boys themselves, this was a groundswell movement, and that the boys themselves realised that they needed adult leaders to enable them to be permitted to organise some of the more risky activities, and so went out and found them.

It is impossible to overstate the implications of this. **The most senior unit of organisation in Scouting is the Patrol, led by a Patrol Leader and consisting of maybe four to ten members, all of about the same age. This Is A Street Gang: only its aim is not internecine warfare, it is - something more far-sighted.**

It has been said, by commentators far more erudite than I, that all BP did was legitimise the street gang - which is already para-military. I'm certain of it, and find it distressing that modern Scouting has moved away from the Patrol as its center. I strongly suspect that this is the leaders and the Scouting organisation doing what they think is best (in some cases, best for themselves perhaps), forgetting that their function is not to Lead but to serve the Patrols of Scouts who are the bedrock of the Movement. BP himself was very clear on that point.

Their position on homosexuality is a wee bit backwards, and the participants either don't take the mythos seriously or are dangerously committed--but it's interesting nonetheless.

BP's guidance on sexual matters is often ridiculed today, but 1907 was a very different world. This is one area where Scouting has moved on in broadly acceptable ways - at least here at home, where Scouting is now open to all comers, girls and boys together, following exactly the same program. There is still a Girl Guide movement, so girls in fact have more choice. I think the Boy Scouts of America group is somewhat less enlightened than the parent organisation, which makes no enquiry into the sexuality of their adult members, but simply holds them to a code of conduct that makes it a non-issue.

There was this story about how Baden-Powell visited Kenya or some other sufficiently foreign place, noticed the natives greeting each other by clasping their left hand (which was used to carry a shield with, symbolism alert) and was so enthralled that he had the Scouts adopt the tradition by shaking hands with the left (because it's "closer to the heart" which is a load of shit because the heart is located in pretty much the centre of your chest) which signifies trust because you trust the other bastard not to have a knife in his other hand.

http://www.thescoutingpages.org.uk/handshake.html

Kenya would not be foreign to BP at all, he'd been all through Africa as a soldier. He is buried at Nyeri, in Kenya.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... grave1.jpg

Nothing about "closer to the heart" - this sounds like BSA extemporisation - and the trust issue being that by transferring his shield to the spear arm he was effectively disarming himself (shield and spear in one hand, can't use either) showing that he greeted his guest with trust.

So if you do it that way it's even more of a trust symbol.

Well, it's a sort of secret sign, but in practice I've never seen it done outside of Scouting circles. I don't offer my left hand when meeting business contacts, for instance.

[ed_montague]

*blink blink*

You did a better job explaining than I would have ever dreamed of.

Perhaps I am but a wee bit bitter, as the Scout troop that has provided me with the majority of my Scouting experience wasn't all that high-quality of a troop. Patrols were kind of scaled down (still there, but what the Scoutmaster spouted about being a "boy-led troop" was nonsense, and I doubt any patrol could have functioned independently as Baden-Powell envisioned), and the Scoutmaster was a silly man who talked about how kids these days with their technology didn't know proper respect for their elders. Which was something of a sticking-point for me, because it was a broad generalization that every generation has used on its offspring. If he'd said that young lads needed both guidance and independence in their adolescent years, just as they had way back in Baden-Powell's time, all would have been well, but nooo...

And forgive me if I'm wrong, but things are mildly different in the States with Girl Scouts. My wee sister tried it out and reported that the troop she was with didn't do much of anything, and certainly didn't do much camping. Although, on a plus side, there's been at least one trans girl allowed into at least one troop somewhere in the United States, I think. There was opposition from a bunch of silly people, but they can be ignored.

Maybe it's just my father's rose-tinted spectacles, but he seemed to have run his troop much closer to Baden-Powell's vision than my scoutmaster ever did. So perhaps I've just had a sub-par experience with the Scouting program.

And I recall there was a signpost at this scout camp I used to go to pointing towards Nyeri. I remembered that much, at least. That, and cooking. Cooking was always fun.

[fredgiblet]

My cousin told me stories about being in the Scouts. Stories about his alcoholic Scoutmaster and how they would regularly spend their time screwing around while camping rather than doing anything productive. I remember stories about propane tanks being used in very unsafe ways.

[ed_montague]

My cousin told me stories about being in the Scouts. Stories about his alcoholic Scoutmaster and how they would regularly spend their time screwing around while camping rather than doing anything productive. I remember stories about propane tanks being used in very unsafe ways.

The problem with Scouts is there's too many f—I mean, silly people who ought never to have joined.

I actually joined the Order of the Arrow not too long ago (just an Ordeal member, sash and dash for me ) and during the entire Ordeal there were silly people who really didn't take it seriously. Granted, the Order of the Arrow is really just community service with a thin veneer of theatrics, but it's just common decency to at least try to go through the motions. And it wasn't just a few silly people who'd been sent by their sub-par troops, it was also the people who were supposed to be supervising us initiates. Fun times.

[javcs]

The right-handshake symbolism is that most people are right handed, thus, when shaking with the right hand (or clasping right forearms), and doing an embrace, the symbolism was that you were acting in peace, and could not stab the other guy in the back.
This is related to why lefties were viewed with suspicion, and the 'sinister hand' being the left hand, and sinister evolving into its modern usage/meaning.