disclaimer, yes i know religion and politics is verboten here, you really should pin a 'rules of the board' somewhere, but i just had to get this idea off my chest and sadly this is pretty much the only forum i frequent, hope you enjoy my strike of insight.


was roaming around the youtube and happened upon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OOYLEDK ... re=related which is about penn&teller taking a look at Intelligent design when it just hit me....

they want it treated like science? let them! put forward the hypothesis that there is an intelligence behind creation, sit back and enjoy the view as science rips the idea apart....and hopefully jolts a few religious nuts back to reality....or at least saves a few more kids from becoming the next generation.

Hello!

Well, I´m studying something in that field of science and I can tell you that a lot of scientist have looked into this "Intelligent design"-thing and riped it apart. One of the problems with these "Intelligent design" (short: ID) supporters is, that they don´t know how science "works". A "theory" in science means something different that the same word in normal life.
Penn & Teller did a good job in the episode of their show you linked, in pointing out where the problems of ID are. I recommend watching it, like any other episode of "bullshit". Back to topic: after watching that episode again, I´m wondering what is going on on the other side of the pond sometimes. Warning signs in schoolbooks because of evolution? That sounds really, really odd to me.
Don´t get me wrong: I know how delicate that topic is and I do not want to offend anyone or what he believes in by this statement.

You're assuming it matters. The people who believe ID don't CARE if scientists can prove it wrong, this has been demonstrated many times over. The people pushing ID are pushing it because it gets them money and influence, they have been confronted with the falsity of their arguments many times they are either true believers that are immune to facts or they are in it for reasons other than truth (money, power, etc.)

ID has been eviscerated in court and compeltely destroyed in literature, it persists not because it hasn't been challenged, but because people want to believe.

Got beaten by the others but yeah, ID has been thoroughly thrashed inside and out by scientists over and over.

The problem is that ID proponents, instead of modifying their theory to suit the evidence (as all good scientists do), handily ignore the evidence and keep repeating the same old crap just slightly rephrased whilst pushing for it to be taught in schools and communities with heavy religious influences.

The sad fact is that its working in some spots in the US and other heavily religious regions such as South Korea. It either gets presented alongside evolution as a viable theory or it's supplanted evolution entirely... which honestly makes me feel sorry for any students that try to get into biology later in life, as they'll have a LOT of relearning to do that will cripple their education.

Ultimately it's not a battle over correct scientific theory. It's a battle for hearts and minds. ID proponents don't care if about their theory being viewed as a valid science by other scientists. It just needs to appear valid enough to pass muster on people who have every reason to believe it over "Godless Science". Given the way school textbooks work, if you win enough hearts and minds, you can corrupt entire generations of youth into believing false bullshit.

In this sense then, the ID proponents are hitting science squarely where it hurts. Scientists are notoriously lousy in the PR department, and the critical thinking skills of the average person are terrible and falling.

What most people are missing at the end of the day is that while science and religion are not necessarily opposed, they should never be mixed together, nor compete on the same turf. Religion is a matter of faith, Science is a matter of facts. The two should not be stepping on each others shoes, period.

This thread assumes that the vast majority of Intelligent Design proponents are somehow capable of logical thought.

On a side note: I recently noticed how many things are named diametrically to their content: "INTELLIGENT Design" is everything but intelligent, "Smart" is the world´s dumbest car, and "Rescue for Greece" is nothing but neocon capitalism in overdrive mode, choking the whole greek economy.
I shake my head slowly.

religion.....you can have it, so long as I don't have to believe it, or have it run day-to-day life

The most frustrating part of 'Intellegent Design' proponents, is they claim it is entirely justified by science, yet when we use science to provide a number of counter examples that discredit their theory they claim we are being ignorant or making false statements, which is actually a falsification of the scientific method.

Science is supposed to use 'best fit models' and intelligent design has long been since concluded a worse fit than inheritance based changes through genetics and similar.

Without selection pressures, there are no evolution of new species, and random mutation is rare and the source of modification within a species, we've seen this through randomised trials.

So with that much explained, where does the designer come in?
Aside from a potential 'entity' who modifies the environment (ice ages, global warming, etc.) to pressure creatures to evolve in desired manners perhaps (which is not what ID proponents claim).

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. The thing choking the Greek economy is the Greeek public sector demanding benefits the Greek private sector cannot afford. That German banks funded this abomination is their own fault. Take your lumps and learn your lesson. Let the Greeks default and never fund them again.

As for neocons, just say right wing Jews. We all know that's what you meant.

For that matter, Greece should never have been brought onto the Euro anyways. It just doesn't have the economic strength to compete, and needed to be weaned in.

We got away with a single currency here in the US because the Federal government took on all of the state's debt in the process (I wouldn't be surprised if balanced-budget rules were passed at the same time). Without such a 'sea change' to alter the dynamics 'immediately following' (meaning, in the few following decades) the economic change, it's inevitable that economic problems would crop up (especially since Greece was apparently massively dependent on depreciation to make it's budget work at all).

Moving to a single currency is a big enough change that those being brought in (especially weak ones like Greece) need to receive a 'restart', to counter the inherent negative effect of loosing control of their currency.

Fault? You have no idea.



Oh. Simple solutions. They always work.



You call me a Nazi?
And who is "we", John Boy?

Well, it could have worked.
But the politicians were blind on the obvious (loss making semi- and fully state-run companies like Olympic Airways etc) so they didn´t enforce budget cuts, money saving measures and restructuration.

And now imagine the people: After decades of worthless money with two-digit annual inflation there was cheap money everywhere.
That´s were the banks smelled the rat. Immediatly. And today there´s the result.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, lets not throw that particular "N" word around guys

That's kind of what I heard too, it's hard to miss the connection there.

Likewise.
The entire last two sentences/last line was completely unnecessary.

RationalWiki on Intelligent Design

Well, at least we're not arguing about religion.

nope this is pure science, even the opposition says so.

yay science!!...

You chose to use a word loaded with anti-semitic undertones. You should choose your words more judicously in the future.

Unless I'm missing something, Neoconservative Capitalism has little to do with anti-semitism. The Nazi party were centrist as far as the Collectivism-Libertarianism scale goes while sitting on the Fascist end (duh) of the Fascist-Anarchist scale.

If there were anti-semitic undertones to what Trantor was saying, you're going to have to point them out. I don't see what you're seeing at all.

I don't see what neocons or Nazis have to do with this topic (or this forum). Since a discussion of intelligent design here is a case of preaching to the choir anyway, I think we can end this right here.