Loroi Trade translation request general

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Arioch
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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Arioch »

Hālian wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:11 pm
Spurred on by recent medical bullshit:
X-ray (as in the wavelength of light)
X-ray (as in the machine that uses that wavelength)
X-ray (as in the picture made by that machine)
X-ray (as in the verb)
While there is an automatically-assigned entry for "x-rays" in the lexicon, I think this is a case where it needs to be overridden, as a) "x-rays" is a term for a specific and somewhat arbitrary range of frequencies of light, and I think it's unlikely that an alien language would happen to have a common term for exactly the same frequency range, and b) I doubt that Loroi medical scanners use x-rays specifically or exclusively (rather than, say, magnetic resonance or sonar, or some combination of various sensors), or that they would name a device for its mechanism rather than its function. (As an aside, I think it's an interesting quality of English (or perhaps Western society) that we seem to really like to name things according to the technology it uses ("tape," "film," "book," "cell phone"), sometimes even when it no longer uses that technology. Maybe it says something about our obsession with how things work.)

high frequency light: dirred tallai dipepi ("large frequency light")
short-wavelength light: ledit larodi dipepi (“brief interval light”)
non-visible light: remir dipepi ("dark light")
ionizing radiation: ridis tamad rollel (“ion-making radiation”)
scan (v): doda
medical scanner: ranzad dodadi
medical scan (the record): ranzad dodad dazan ("medical scanner document")

Mk_C
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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Mk_C »

Arioch wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:06 pm
As an aside, I think it's an interesting quality of English (or perhaps Western society) that we really like to name things according to the technology it uses ("x-ray," "tape," "disk," "book," "cell phone"), sometimes even when it no longer uses that technology. Maybe it says something about our obsession with how things work.
Dunno. It seems more like during an emergence of a new technological thingamajig that needs it's own name for specificity, referring to it's principle of function is one of the few convenient and obvious options for naming it, along with referring to it's place of origin or a key personality or straight up loan words. I can't recall an example of "non-Western" language where principles of function is not a frequent approach for naming thinges - for example, names for X-ray machines/shots, and, say, video tapes and nuclear devices refer to X-rays (albeit with the phenomenon being named with a reference to Wilhelm Roentgen), tape and nuclei in Hebrew, Japanese and Turkish as well, distinctly very non-Western languages. Similar examples in Russian are countless, but that one probably doesn't count. And in reverse, lots of things in English and Western languages are named not by the functional principle, but rather locality of origin (Denim, Cologne, Duffel bag, Bikini), some dude (Mason jar, stetson, leotard, Diesel engine, Braille, derrick) or are loaned (howitzer, lackey, abacus, cabal, dinghy) while in other, even non-Western languages the names for the same things are frequently more function or tech related.

I'd say that during the emergence of a name for a thing when people need a new way of referring to a specific object, it's largely decided by sheer circumstance in practically any language, and later this option is frequently preserved even against immediate logic by linguistic inertia - no need for a new word to refer to a thing if the old word still performs adequately, even when the sense behind the etymology is lost through change in the object itself. English, Germanic languages and Indo-European languages in general are hardly unusual in this quality. Languages may be different, but the fundamental principles of linguistics, including etymology, are largely universal among humans, though they would probably be quite different for a significantly different sapient species.

Now this got me thinking - could there be some well-hidden clues among the possibly more "manually produced" and supposedly archaic pieces of Trade lexicon about the nature of Soia, like how their numeral system suggests that they were not ten-fingered? Hmmm...

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Arioch »

Mk_C wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:12 pm
It seems more like during an emergence of a new technological thingamajig that needs it's own name for specificity, referring to it's principle of function is one of the few convenient and obvious options for naming it, along with referring to it's place of origin or a key personality or straight up loan words. I can't recall an example of "non-Western" language where principles of function is not a frequent approach for naming thinges - for example, names for X-ray machines/shots, and, say, video tapes and nuclear devices refer to X-rays (albeit with the phenomenon being named with a reference to Wilhelm Roentgen), tape and nuclei in Hebrew, Japanese and Turkish as well, distinctly very non-Western languages. Similar examples in Russian are countless, but that one probably doesn't count.
Well, that's a difficult comparison in our case, since video tapes and nuclear devices and x-ray machines were not independently invented (as far as I'm aware) in Israel or Japan or Turkey; their words for these items are most likely based on those from English or German or what have you. English also has a lot of borrowed nomenclature, especially from French.

As technologis change faster and faster, even in English we're starting to move away from media- or technology-specific words and more often using more flexible terms like "files," "data," "titles," "recordings." and "mobile phones."

Mainly I think about naming from a science fiction writing standpoint: unless you're specifically showcasing a particular technology, I think it's best to try to name things to their function rather than the technology you think may be behind them, to try to avoid embarrassing anachronisms as much as possible. I still grind my teeth a little bit when I'm watching Aliens and Gorman says of Ripley's report, "Anyway we have it on disk, so you'd better take a look at it." In trying to sound high-tech, they end up sounding low-tech. All they had to do was say "file" or something less specific, to avoid irritating obsessive viewers like me.

It also works to use a borrowed name after a creator or place (like "Alderson drive" or "Bergenholm generator"), but this requires additional explanation, so again it kind of needs to be an important point in the story. Realism aside, it's not good to load up the reader with any more jargon to remember than is strictly necessary. And using borrowed words from other alien languages is just confusing, even if it may be realistic.

Mk_C wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:12 pm
Now this got me thinking - could there be some well-hidden clues among the possibly more "manually produced" and supposedly archaic pieces of Trade lexicon about the nature of Soia, like how their numeral system suggests that they were not ten-fingered? Hmmm...
My assumption is that most high-tech names in Loroi Trade have to be new additions, compound words or new twists on the meaning or the construction of more basic words. Soia-era Trade no doubt had its own high-tech terminology, but most of this would have been lost during the millennia in which the Loroi had reverted to primitive technology. The extant writing that helped Trade to survive with minimal change would have been mostly limited to public signage and inscriptions on devices. The technical manuals, alas, did not survive... that would have made things a lot easier in much more than language.

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Krin
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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Krin »

I wanted to get a translation for some phrase, and I've pieced together what I think it could be, but would like clarification on some words if possible.

"Moment of"
"In Moments of"
"In time of" (In Times of)
Shall (Shall have)
Will (Will have)
Loss (loss of) (to lose something)
Regret
Remorse
Hope
Emissary
Diplomat

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Arioch »

"Moment" is bima. "In this moment" is sopis bima moidir (though a taciturn Loroi would more likely say just tasori ("now").

sopis moia moidir "In this era" or sopis dora redat moidir "in this pariticular time"

"To have" is the verb peilo. The future tense ("will have") is peilio. But if you're looking to use "will" or "will have" as a future or future perfect indicator of another verb ("will kill" or "will have killed") then just use the future or future perfect of that verb (seredio or seredatio, respectively). Verb tenses are explained in the grammar page.

"Shall" is in one sense just a fancy version of "will." "Should" or "ought to" is tistel which you can put in front of any verb. "Should have" is tistel peilo, and in that sense "shall have" is tistel peilio. "Shall kill" is tistel seredio, and "Shall have killed" is tistel seredatio.

lestirmir "loss," or lestirmid "losing"
siror "regret"
Regret and remorse are pretty much the same thing. Rollil is "sadness." You might say rollil siror "sad regret," though that's somewhat redundant; regret is assumed to be unhappy. Or perhaps dirred siror "great regret".

dashri "hope"
sanzet "envoy"
toimor "diplomat"
bonzos "ambassador"

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by ESP »

Hello, all. I had a couple language-adjacent questions.

Do the Loroi have a name for their system(s) of government? I am thinking specifically of their oligarchic councils and the office of consul.

The lexicon lists the Diadem as the Loroi's ruling council. I initially assumed "Diadem Council" was a variant of "Crown Council". Is this a false cognate?

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Arioch »

ESP wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:31 pm
The lexicon lists the Diadem as the Loroi's ruling council. I initially assumed "Diadem Council" was a variant of "Crown Council". Is this a false cognate?
Yes. "Diadem" is meant to be a Loroi Trade word that describes the council, which is sort of like a cabinet or joint chiefs of staff. But I am aware of the meaning of the word in English; the choice was intentional. Plus it's just a cool sounding word.

ESP wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:31 pm
Do the Loroi have a name for their system(s) of government? I am thinking specifically of their oligarchic councils and the office of consul.
The traditional Deinar form of government is referred to as the toza neirren, or "Elder council." The office of consul is called the teshrinel or "Speaker," and there are usually two. In some cases there is also a popular assembly (sillarder), which is analogous to the Roman Council of the Plebs. The Imperial government is based on this system, with the Diadem acting as the elder council and the Azerein as one of the two consuls. The Union Assembly functions sort of like the sillader, led by an elected chairperson (effectively the second consul in the system).

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Werra
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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Werra »

Arioch wrote:The office of consul is called the teshrinel or "Speaker"
From the Loroi sense of to speak or is that just the English approximation of the office?

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by ESP »

@Arioch:
Awesome. Thanks for the response.

@Werra:
This isn't a definitive answer, but the lexicon lists "teshros" for voice. Perhaps starship captains aren't the only one who use speech in a ritualized manner ;)

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Siber »

I'm curious what the word for lie or falsehood is
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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Arioch »

Siber wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:53 pm
I'm curious what the word for lie or falsehood is
pore (pronounced "po·ré", not "POR")

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Hālian »

“Crossfire”?
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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Arioch »

Hālian wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:40 am
“Crossfire”?
anzat

I was looking through the lexicon and noticed that "surround" is banzai. Never say RNGesus doesn't have a sense of humor.

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Snoofman »

democracy

republic

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by dragoongfa »

Snoofman wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:32 am
democracy

republic
Oh, I partially remember this one; they translate them as 'mob rule'.

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Arioch »

Snoofman wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:32 am
democracy

republic
The term for rule by popular election is mezebesed. The term does not draw a distinction between a democracy and a republic.

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Snoofman »

dragoongfa wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:17 am
Snoofman wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:32 am
democracy

republic
Oh, I partially remember this one; they translate them as 'mob rule'.
Enlightening! :mrgreen:

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Snoofman »

What would you call a Loroi boss, head or kingpin in the Loroi equivalent of mafia or criminal underworld?

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by Arioch »

Snoofman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 6:59 pm
What would you call a Loroi boss, head or kingpin in the Loroi equivalent of mafia or criminal underworld?
criminal: mazar
criminal gang: tigis
criminal chief: mazar seinen

It should be noted that a mafia's main tool of survival, namely the corruption of government officials, is problematic in Loroi society in which the wealth of officials is strictly regulated, and the nature of telepathy makes it very difficult for criminal activities to remain secret. What "underworld" elements that do exist have to be buried very deep, having more in common with a secret society than our notion of the Mob.

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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Post by inxsi »

"Unity", or maybe "friendship". I'm not sure what loroi seeking a relationship between humanity and the loroi that is at least allies but maybe even stronger would use.

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