Hello...

[discord]

black: yes yes, lots of utter bullshitium, plotholium and plain old technobabble, the math behind accuracy in space is so insanely simple it's silly.

how fast the placement of target can change(acceleration and changing direction it is accelerating in)
speed of sensors(usually light speed, but in the case of active sensors it is significantly slower, radar for instance would take twice as long, one there and one back)
accuracy of the firing platform, this could theoretically be VERY accurate but on a mobile platform performing defensive movement while taking fire it is quickly limited.

assuming light speed weapons and passive sensors and Loroi ships doing 30g omni directional semi inertia less drive, at one light second it takes one second to get the data, assuming computers and tracking is very fast and takes zero time the return trip will take one second, a Nimitz-class supercarrier is a 332.8m target on the longest axis, so lets use that as a example, since this is a VERY large ship.

okey, acceleration over two seconds at 30g is up to 600m from the sensor reading, bah, can't be arsed to do the math properly right now, but the volume it can be in is over 20 times larger then the ship in question, probably over thirty as well, but given probability of movement making things slightly more predictable lets keep it at twenty which means with PERFECT sensors and PERFECT aim you still only have something like 1 in 20 chance of scoring a hit on a HUGE target accelerating at outsider verse rates at one light second, which is the range where you can expect to start hitting the enemy....

now mass drivers of all kinds have HUGE damage potential, problem being slow unguided projectile, at which point you will undoubtedly scream that they are very fast! and on a terrestrial scale they are, on a space scale, not so much, given HUGE acceleration rates and a kilometer long barrel you would have to dump(guesstimate here) something like the total output of our sun for a second or two to get even .1c or one tenth of the speed of light out of that weapon which is three times longer then the largest currently existing warships, even given this enormous speed it would take 10 seconds to get to target add another second of sensor lag for a total of 11 during which the target can move 3300m in any direction, or ten ship lengths, at which point the chance of hitting becomes one in a few thousand or so.

next step, mass drivers will probably not get over 0.001c which is still VERY fast, the current goals for our theoretical railguns are 0.000023c, these are still in the laboratory and still not there, but it should be possible to get that much at least, realistic railguns have a effective maximum range against mobile targets of no more than 300km even given VERY slow targets and VERY fast railguns.

bottom line, ANY massdriver in a realistic verse is gonna be VERY short ranged, but if you can HIT the target you can demolish just about anything with them, problem as i have tried to point out is actually hitting the target.

[Senanthes]

Um... Just to clarify... For all those 'UNSC will kick their ass' ideas... The UNSC got obliterated in nearly every single space battle they fought against the Covenant. And even in the ones they won, they lost STAGGERING amounts of ships doing it. This includes the fleet of the legendary Preston Cole... Who often lost three quarters of his ships per engagement. In all reality, they are no more advanced than the Terrans in Outsider... In many ways, less so.

Take a look at the average UNSC frigate, which forms the backbone of their fleet... Sure, it mounts a massive coilgun (not railgun, the MAC is a coilgun by its very description), that can achieve around 30 kilometers per second with a multi-ton round... Which, honestly, isn't fast at all in terms of long range ship to ship combat. IF it hits, which it probably wont... Sure, boom, no more ship. But...

You have to turn the ENTIRE ship to do it. And UNSC ships are not quick. The few that are, such as the Pillar of Autumn, are sparkling ones offs using experimental technology. Most are limited to a few G's of acceleration for practical purposes; they dont have any way of mitigating the forces on the crew. Not to mention, most smaller Covenant ships could take multiple MAC rounds before losing their shields... Clearly, not an effective weapon against such defenses. Now...

Secondary weapons: Archer missiles and autocannons... Archers were all but ineffective against the Covenant unless they were launcherd by the hundreds, if not thousands... They were decoyed, shot down, and generally couldn't affect a shielded ship anyways... Why would they be more effective against anything in Outsider? Heck, they'd probably be even less effective, due to the combatants already having a lot of experience with torpedo swarm tactics. And autocannons?... Forget it. They're inconsequential. They barely worked on Covenant fighters and were useless against larger craft, not to mention being hillariously short ranged. They're point defense against incoming fighters, which also mount more advanced weapons... So... What does that leave an UNSC ship with? Nothing aside from a willingness to die for their country.

Now, the vaunted nukes, Shivas and NOVAS. Both can be shot down. They're missiles, and each ship carries a VERY small number of the former (3 in nearly every instance), and generally one or none of the latter. Besides which, single Shiva launches rarely destroyed Covenant vessels unless their shields were already down, and again, many were just shot down. NOVA's are as much a danger to the firing ships as to the enemy, and suffer from the same interception issue. First time they see one go off, you can bet that any further launches will become priority one for point defense... And somehow... I dont think that empires that wage war for as long as they have will bend over and kow-tow because of one big blast... So, there goes the shock and awe factor.

By contrast, Terran vessels mount FAR more compact mass drivers (likely with MANY more rounds per gun, yet another issue with the MAC system), lasers (which no known UNSC ship ever mounted as a primary weapon... Yes, I know about the ones on Prowlers that can cook a satellite. Still small potatoes to a Loroi cruiser or Umiak heavy), and missile based counter-missile defenses. They accelerate similarly, as well. Armor I can't compare since I dont know what a Terran vessel will actually withstand here, but I think we can assume that combat would be rather deadly for both sides.

As for post-war UNSC ships? The only one I've ever heard of is the Infinity... Which was brought down. We have no solid information on them yet, so thats an unknon factor. To be fair, I coudl see such vessels being more or less equal to what the Loroi or Umiak field, but they would be few in number.

And... To cover the last, possibly best weapon the UNSC would have... Spartans. What good is your power armored ubermensch when a Teidar will likely sense them coming and kill them with a thought? They were never put up against opposition that could literally bypass their advantages entirely, always in a marathon of endurance and straight up firepower in every instance.

In summary... I dont see how it would go any better for the UNSC against either of the two alien aggressors than it would against the Covenant, particularly since neither is limiting themselves for theological reasons, nor are they stratified in their technology. That concludes my latest rant, thank you for your time.

[Just a Crazy-Man]

Don't forget AI's.

[Absalom]

And... To cover the last, possibly best weapon the UNSC would have... Spartans. What good is your power armored ubermensch when a Teidar will likely sense them coming and kill them with a thought? They were never put up against opposition that could literally bypass their advantages entirely, always in a marathon of endurance and straight up firepower in every instance.

Actually, the Teidar wouldn't sense them coming if we assume biological equivalence between Outsider Humans and Halo Humans, but they probably wouldn't be able to get onto Loroi or Umiak planets anyways, so no big difference. Besides, the seemingly 'best batch' (the second) was almost completely wiped out, the first is apparently mostly or entirely dead, and the third batch is apparently hot-headed, so not a primary combat force regardless.

In summary... I dont see how it would go any better for the UNSC against either of the two alien aggressors than it would against the Covenant, particularly since neither is limiting themselves for theological reasons, nor are they stratified in their technology. That concludes my latest rant, thank you for your time.

The one thing you forgot to account for, as mentioned by Crazy Man, is A.I.s. Only the Historians seem to have a similar capability, and they presumably won't just lend them out.

Though the Covenant were likely lousy on IT security, so that just means the Halo Humans would have the best (or second best) pilots in the local bubble, which is pretty unimportant if you don't have the ships to make use of them. If the Halo Humans could get some salvage and enough time to reverse-engineer and use enough of it then they'd become the most potent navy short of the Historians, but beyond that they'd be out of luck.

[Just a Crazy-Man]

Battles are won by good commanders which the UNSC has the best training of.

[Senanthes]

First, Absalom, thank you for correcting me. Seriously. ^.^

Second, in response to the UNSC having the best commanders. You appear to be completely disregarding that all of the factions herein have the capacity to, and likely do (I think we've already seen one example in Stillstorm), have their own great tactical and strategic minds. Moreover, the UNSC didn't win because of its commanders. Or its Spartans. Honestly, it didn't even win. It survived. And it did so because the Covenant turned on itself when it was revealed that their entire religion was a lie. Sure, several quick thinkers bought time and pulled off some miraculous stunts, but consider what the outcome would have been if the Covenant hadn't fractured.

A.I.s are something of a grey area (thanks for bringing that up, by the way. ^.^). So far, we've only seen the historian A.I.s, but who can say what experience everyone else has with them, or means to keep them from running willy-nilly through their own networks? And, unfortunately, most of the UNSC ships did, indeed have onboard A.I.s during the war (rarely referenced by name, but still referenced), which tells much of the overall difference they made in ship to ship combat. While I'm sure they did make some difference, they didn't cut down on the horrid slaughter of the UNSC's fleets. Further, since we're referencing Cortana here as the prime example (with the mention of IT security), with all her diefic abilities to invade and all but control other systems, it should be noted that she was a one of a kind wunderkind among AI's, and not a typical example. Most were nowhere near as capable.

Again, as Absalom said, without some miracles thrown their way, they'd be largely out of luck. And I dont see alien races that consider genocide as a solution allowing them to have the time they'd need to make use of anything they found, short of someone just handing them new toys fresh off the shelf, so to speak. Mostly, my point is, the disparity of the suggested factions so far (Starfleet, the UNSC) really makes for a predictable outcome short of author intervention and a lot of unlikely coincidence. In the end, you can do what you will, and I laud you for it Just seems like a one sided fistfight is all, one way or the other.

[discord]

crazy: no, neither wars nor battles are won by 'good commanders' they are won by a combination of men, training and tools...despite common belief 'commanders' and the decisions they make seldom make for great victories, it's the other guys fucking up that create fantastic failures.

[Senanthes]

crazy: no, neither wars nor battles are won by 'good commanders' they are won by a combination of men, training and tools...despite common belief 'commanders' and the decisions they make seldom make for great victories, it's the other guys fucking up that create fantastic failures.

I could not have said it better myself. Thank you, sir. ^.^

[Arioch]

It is fair to say though that superior men and training are often directly due to the "good commanders."

[junk]

black: yes it has the damage potential to kill ships....or planets for that matter, hitting a MOBILE target however....not so much.

Yes, but the UNSC has experience in dealing with moving targets... they tend to use highly specialized AIs to deal with moving targets, and this includes detecting and parsing minute tells (much like a highly skilled martial artist that reads your body languge to judge what your next action will be).

At any rate, UNSC captains usually don't like to fire off their MAC rounds until the projectile's travel time is down to a few seconds anyhow... and the speed at which those rounds travel will effectively halve the warning time the Umiak would have.

Also, while the Umiak are known to commence engagements from a distance, they are equally well known for their willingness to close in with their enemies. This would be a lethal mistake to make when fighting the UNSC. It would probably be a while until a survivor got back home to tell everyone what not to do when fighting the UNSC... and then they'll learn just how willing the UNSC is to use nukes. They'll even use planet-crackers if they feel the need is great enough. Wonder how the Umiak would respond when given the same ultimatum the Americans gave the Japanese.

But let's not just stop with the Umiak. I'm pretty sure that the UNSC, especially post-Covenant War UNSC, would not be too terribly pleased with the Loroi's attitude towards them. You know, the whole side-with-us-or-perish thing. That could lead to some messy misunderstandings.

Halo is completely broken from a calc standpoint. I remember that one cannon fluff bible that was released which put infantry weapons at ranges below guns used in WW1 and the same was done for vehicle weapons and possible ship weapons.

If those hard numbers were followed, today's north korea could potentially take care of any UNSC contingent no matter how big.

It would be like having a modern army go against one from the 30year war.

[fredgiblet]

I remember that one cannon fluff bible that was released which put infantry weapons at ranges below guns used in WW1

That part would be accurate. During and after WW2 there was a massive shift away from full-power rifle rounds to intermediate power rifle rounds due to the fact that most militaries (though notably not the US) realized that the full power rifle rounds were rarely, if ever, being used to their full ability. Very few infantry would fire their weapon at targets beyond a couple hundred yards. Because of this the Germans introduced the Stg44 which fired the 7.92 Kurz and the Russians introduced the 7.62x39 round with the SKS. Despite being far less powerful that their earlier brethren both of these were perfectly capable of killing people while having less recoil, being lighter and being cheaper to produce.

The US finally got into the post-war arms period with introduction of the M-16 using the 5.56mm which was even less powerful than the German and Russian designs, but still, mostly, capable of killing a target at normal engagement ranges.

The trend would have continued in the 90's with the introduction of the H&K G11 and the 4.73mm which fired an even lighter round at the same velocity as the 5.56mm.

tl;dr

Modern guns are weaker than their WW1 counterparts and that's unlikely to change.

[junk]

I remember that one cannon fluff bible that was released which put infantry weapons at ranges below guns used in WW1

That part would be accurate. During and after WW2 there was a massive shift away from full-power rifle rounds to intermediate power rifle rounds due to the fact that most militaries (though notably not the US) realized that the full power rifle rounds were rarely, if ever, being used to their full ability. Very few infantry would fire their weapon at targets beyond a couple hundred yards. Because of this the Germans introduced the Stg44 which fired the 7.92 Kurz and the Russians introduced the 7.62x39 round with the SKS. Despite being far less powerful that their earlier brethren both of these were perfectly capable of killing people while having less recoil, being lighter and being cheaper to produce.

The US finally got into the post-war arms period with introduction of the M-16 using the 5.56mm which was even less powerful than the German and Russian designs, but still, mostly, capable of killing a target at normal engagement ranges.

The trend would have continued in the 90's with the introduction of the H&K G11 and the 4.73mm which fired an even lighter round at the same velocity as the 5.56mm.

tl;dr

Modern guns are weaker than their WW1 counterparts and that's unlikely to change.

To be honest the numbers in there were such that an automatic grenade launcher had smaller range than a moderate throwing arm. With ranges between something like 30-100 meters being present there.

[fredgiblet]

OK. That's problematic then.

[Muttley]

fredgiblet wrote

During and after WW2 there was a massive shift away from full-power rifle rounds to intermediate power rifle rounds due to the fact that most militaries (though notably not the US) realized that the full power rifle rounds were rarely, if ever, being used to their full ability.

I think you're talking about assault rifles here, which are a lot older than WW2: Tony Williams has written a great deal on the subject and his online article here summarises the development rather well

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

Very few infantry would fire their weapon at targets beyond a couple hundred yards. Because of this the Germans introduced the Stg44 which fired the 7.92 Kurz and the Russians introduced the 7.62x39 round with the SKS. Despite being far less powerful that their earlier brethren both of these were perfectly capable of killing people while having less recoil, being lighter and being cheaper to produce.

The assault rifle is meant to meet a very specific requirement;

"A standard military rifle, capable of controlled, fully-automatic fire from the shoulder, with an effective range of at least 300 metres"

So as to be able to be carried by infantry and employed with good effect during manoeuvres, rather than from static positions. The reduced power of the cartridge is necessary to allow controllable full auto fire from the shoulder. Cost doesn't come into it.

The US finally got into the post-war arms period with introduction of the M-16 using the 5.56mm which was even less powerful than the German and Russian designs, but still, mostly, capable of killing a target at normal engagement ranges.

The US had an epiphany in Vietnam where engagement ranges were frequently very short but overdid it and adopted the 5.56 "small game" round.

Modern guns are weaker than their WW1 counterparts and that's unlikely to change.

The current standard infantry weapon is less powerful than, for instance, the Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield of WW1, and it's become clear in Afghanistan that this is a severe disadvantage. No jungle, you see. And the Afghans are generally very good shots.

[fredgiblet]

Designs for assault rifle type weapons existed prior to WW2, but WW2 is when they became important and started actually being widely used.

There will always be a place for full-power rifles however for most purposes the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Usually they are only going to be superior in places like Afghanistan and there's not a lot of places like Afghanistan.

EDIT: Also I'd note that the definition you're quoting from the website is that authors definition. If you ask most people they will probably give an answer more like the Wiki definition "An assault rifle is a select-fire (either fully automatic or burst capable) rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine"

EDIT2: LSAT for the win

[BlackAeronaut]

Um... Just to clarify... For all those 'UNSC will kick their ass' ideas... The UNSC got obliterated in nearly every single space battle they fought against the Covenant. And even in the ones they won, they lost STAGGERING amounts of ships doing it. This includes the fleet of the legendary Preston Cole... Who often lost three quarters of his ships per engagement. In all reality, they are no more advanced than the Terrans in Outsider... In many ways, less so.

Arrrrggghhh...
And I suppose the fact that the Covenant having greater numbers, energy weaponry, energy shields, advanced metalurgy, better FTL, and better reactors had absolutely nothing to do with how badly the UNSC fared... </sarcasm> Seriously, once the Marines and ODSTs learned their tactics, it never was a question about who would win the ground battles. It is stated, in cannon, that the war was pretty much decided in space, and pretty much all because the the staggering technological superiority the Covenant had over the UNSC. And don't get me started on the NUMBERS. Their supercarriers (which they have a hell ofa lot more than 'just a couple') are so freakishly huge that they shade entire mountains when they deign to enter atmosphere.

So, did the UNSC get pwned like a bunch pathetic noobs? Yeah, and it happened for a really good reason. They were simply overwhelmed and there wasn't a damned thing they could have done about it. (That includes surrendering because the Prophet of Truth knew that Humans were slated to be the successors to the Forerunners, which meant that Humans would soon be taking the Heirarch's place in the Covenant - even the Brutes would have bowed.)

Okay, so Loroi and Umiak both have energy weapons... But I feel that they don't hold a candle to the sheer nastiness that is Covenant ship-scale plasma weaponry. UNSC ships had titanium-alloy armor that measured in the tens-of-meters and they still got cut open like catfish at a cajun fryup. And that's to say nothing about the Covenant's nastier super-weapons, such as their particle beam cannons that may very well be planet-crackers (used to punch completely through a ship - usually aimed right at the reactor so the results were... messy).

I don't think armor of the Loroi or Umiak comes even close.

Now, I'm not saying that the UNSC would be all that more advanced that Outsider-Humans... just that they'd be closer to the Umiak and Loroi... close enough that when the Umiak attack their ships, they'd be like, "AH-hah-hah! Those lights tickle! Come a little bit closer, I wanna show you something cool."

[Absalom]

The Umiak and Loroi would quickly realize that the UNSC ships were hideously slow, and use the oppourtunity to pick them off at their leisure. The primary defense of the Loroi is their maneuverability, and that's available to the Umiak too. The main reason for range limitations is that very maneuverability, not damage dissipation. Unless all Loroi or Umiak forces in-system made a simultaneous joust and were destroyed before leaving UNSC weapons range, they would quickly switch to long-range dissection. And they would win.

In a fight between the UNSC and either the Loroi or Umiak, effective weapons ranges easily say that the UNSC will lose. Weapons nastiness doesn't matter unless you can hit, and the UNSC are massively easier to hit. Loroi and Umiak armor doesn't matter.

[Senanthes]

Um... Just to clarify... For all those 'UNSC will kick their ass' ideas... The UNSC got obliterated in nearly every single space battle they fought against the Covenant. And even in the ones they won, they lost STAGGERING amounts of ships doing it. This includes the fleet of the legendary Preston Cole... Who often lost three quarters of his ships per engagement. In all reality, they are no more advanced than the Terrans in Outsider... In many ways, less so.

Arrrrggghhh...
And I suppose the fact that the Covenant having greater numbers, energy weaponry, energy shields, advanced metalurgy, better FTL, and better reactors had absolutely nothing to do with how badly the UNSC fared... </sarcasm> Seriously, once the Marines and ODSTs learned their tactics, it never was a question about who would win the ground battles. It is stated, in cannon, that the war was pretty much decided in space, and pretty much all because the the staggering technological superiority the Covenant had over the UNSC. And don't get me started on the NUMBERS. Their supercarriers (which they have a hell ofa lot more than 'just a couple') are so freakishly huge that they shade entire mountains when they deign to enter atmosphere.

So, did the UNSC get pwned like a bunch pathetic noobs? Yeah, and it happened for a really good reason. They were simply overwhelmed and there wasn't a damned thing they could have done about it. (That includes surrendering because the Prophet of Truth knew that Humans were slated to be the successors to the Forerunners, which meant that Humans would soon be taking the Heirarch's place in the Covenant - even the Brutes would have bowed.)

Okay, so Loroi and Umiak both have energy weapons... But I feel that they don't hold a candle to the sheer nastiness that is Covenant ship-scale plasma weaponry. UNSC ships had titanium-alloy armor that measured in the tens-of-meters and they still got cut open like catfish at a cajun fryup. And that's to say nothing about the Covenant's nastier super-weapons, such as their particle beam cannons that may very well be planet-crackers (used to punch completely through a ship - usually aimed right at the reactor so the results were... messy).

I don't think armor of the Loroi or Umiak comes even close.

Now, I'm not saying that the UNSC would be all that more advanced that Outsider-Humans... just that they'd be closer to the Umiak and Loroi... close enough that when the Umiak attack their ships, they'd be like, "AH-hah-hah! Those lights tickle! Come a little bit closer, I wanna show you something cool."

Aero, thank you for making my points for me. Yes, they were outmatched in every way. And here it is stated, "Okay, so Loroi and Umiak both have energy weapons... But I feel that they don't hold a candle to the sheer nastiness that is Covenant ship-scale plasma weaponry." It's a matter of opinion here, where facts are being ignored. We dont have a completely direct comparison, but we do know that the average vessel in Outsider is more advanced than what the UNSC fields.

So, they were outmatched in every way... Okay, thats what I said. But, they will do far better here being outmatched in every way... Right? Frankly, it feels like we're pushing into 'rule of cool' more than facts, so I take my leave for the moment.

Thanks for the discussion (No, really, not being snide), and see you around.

[junk]

But covenant plasma guns on ships are extremely weak if I remember correctly.

Which brings us to ground warfare, where the relatively pathetically weak UNSC (weak compared to today's forces) were able to go toe to toe with the technologically more advanced covenant forces, often even outclassing them.

I certainly hope that humanity in outsider is better off than the UNSC.

Overall they seem to be on a similar technological level actually. The question if outsider humanity has as good targeting computers as the UNSC with their AI's

[uthilian]

Covenant plasma weapons are extremely powerful they can adjust trajectory mid flight to compensate for target movement (can still miss and not as fast a projectile as Lori/Umiak energy weapons, cortana even turns some of them into the plasma beam weapons which are far far nastier, same punch in a smaller impact area with greater accuracy, but it wears out the weapon focuses).
1 Plasma shot could destroy or disable UNSC ship while 1-2 Mass accelerator rounds fired from a UNSC ship could take out the shields of a similar sized covenant ship the 2nd or 3rd (depending on the ship firing) round would destroy or disable it. The only advantage the UNSC had in space combat with the covenant was Prowlers(stealth ships) and in the time it took covenant weapons fire to travel the distance between the two fleets the UNSC ships had fired 2-3 volleys of Mass accelerator rounds, ships refited with the more advanced MassAcceleratorCannons(fires 2 rounds one straight after the other with slightly less power per round but better at getting though covenant shields aka the one fitted on the Pillar of Autumn is one of only afew in existence at that point) or more than 1 MAC's (Bigger UNSC ships carry 2 MACs) obviously could damage even kill multiple covenant ships before being killed by 1 plasma round hitting the bridge or reactor.