modern medicine

[discord]

a buddy of mine made a interesting comment earlier today, why don't we have 'healing kit in a spray can' yet?

which got us to thinking about what you would need in it, some painkiller effect would be good, antibacterial and coagulant would be needed, after that just make it a viscous foam that either hardens on it's own or needs a simple bandage....

should be simple enough to make i thought, so i brought the idea here to the biggest collection of theoretical eggheads i know of, what do you think?

[Grayhome]

Here's the first thing I found after a few minutes of searching, spray on skin and bandages have been getting a lot of attention in the last decade or so, I've seen a few products that while expensive are worth looking into.

http://theweek.com/article/index/231586 ... als-wounds


At the level of technology in the Outsider-verse I would expect there to be paramedical nanite swarms that actively repair wounds and damaged organs

[Mr Bojangles]

This is similar to what Grayhome posted, but it's a different technology with a different developer. Unbelievably awesome in the "Holy shit, I saw this on Star Trek!" way.

Article:
http://news.discovery.com/tech/spray-on ... ctims.html

Video:


And here are a couple of hemostatics (pro-coagulants) that the US military uses for battlefield medical emergencies:

http://www.remotemedical.com/CELOX-Hemo ... ulant-35gm
http://www.z-medica.com/

The skin gun is new, but the hemostatics have been in use by the military for at least a decade now. Of course, there have been spray-on analgesics and antibacterials for even longer. So, while I don't think there are any first-person shooter style "med-packs," any corpsman worth anything will carry all of the above in his or her field kit.

Well, not the skin gun, it's still too new, but if they could, they would!

[fredgiblet]

At the level of technology in the Outsider-verse I would expect there to be paramedical nanite swarms that actively repair wounds and damaged organs

Probably not. Arioch has stated no "grey goo" nanites, so I doubt they would have that kind of ability.

[Mr Bojangles]

Did he mean "no nanites," flat out? Or did he mean no self-replicating nanomachines? Because we're on the verge of having working nanomachines now, they just won't have the ability to build more of themselves.

So, it's possible to have nanotech without the gray goo scenario.

[Trantor]

Apart from that spray-on-skin there´s also already some kind of "skin-glue" as a replacement for stitching wounds. A friend of mine participated in a medical research experiment some years ago. But the "little downside" in his case were unbearable pains for weeks due to incompatibilities/immune response.
So since it´s not all gold we´ll surely have to wait another few years until this becomes standart.

[fredgiblet]

He didn't get that detailed, but IIRC it was in a response to the idea of putting disassembler nanites into mass driver rounds, which IS a bit more far-fetched than skin stitching nanites

[javcs]

He didn't get that detailed, but IIRC it was in a response to the idea of putting disassembler nanites into mass driver rounds, which IS a bit more far-fetched than skin stitching nanites

Or many other specific tasking medical purpose nanites.

[Mr Bojangles]

Apart from that spray-on-skin there´s also already some kind of "skin-glue" as a replacement for stitching wounds. A friend of mine participated in a medical research experiment some years ago. But the "little downside" in his case were unbearable pains for weeks due to incompatibilities/immune response.
So since it´s not all gold we´ll surely have to wait another few years until this becomes standart.

The cool thing about the skin gun I linked to is that it uses a person's own skin cells, so it neatly avoids a negative immune response.

He didn't get that detailed, but IIRC it was in a response to the idea of putting disassembler nanites into mass driver rounds, which IS a bit more far-fetched than skin stitching nanites

Disassembler nanomachines in mass driver rounds? Purposely weaponized gray goo? I can see why Arioch said "NO."

[Absalom]

I'd add a wide variety of anti-inflamatories (I believe that e.g. some or all of the B vitamins are in this group), and probably some assorted nutrients to assist with regrowth (I don't know what they would be, ask a doctor). Probably some immune boosters too.

One of the problems you'd face is that not all things will be appropriate for all wounds. You'd want an artificial skin cream for scapes, but presumably a foam version for cuts, and a non-skin foam for penetrating wounds. And, of course, you need a way to deal with cut veins & arteries. Also, this is basically just a field version of emergency medicine, so certainly convenient, but mostly just important for soldiers & first responders.

Apart from that spray-on-skin there´s also already some kind of "skin-glue" as a replacement for stitching wounds. A friend of mine participated in a medical research experiment some years ago. But the "little downside" in his case were unbearable pains for weeks due to incompatibilities/immune response.
So since it´s not all gold we´ll surely have to wait another few years until this becomes standart.

I understand that super-glue was invented for a similar reason (and supposedly sometimes still gets used for it, though I don't know what kind of wound superglue specifically would be appropriate for).

Similar to what your friend helped test, it apparently burns a bit (though presumably not "unbearable for weeks", since it's hopefully non-allergenic).

[discord]

but seriously, in most cases of open wounds you need pretty much the same things, avoid infection/inflammation, stop the bleeding and finally do something about the pain(local anesthetic).

and to be honest i can't figure out a 'open wound' that does not want all of those things, possibly a serious gut wound with open intestines or something....but no, all those things are 'good'.

so, alcohol cleaning and spray on 'magic goo' wrap it up, should stabilize most situations very quickly, perfect battlefield medicine.

[Mr Bojangles]

...
so, alcohol cleaning and spray on 'magic goo' wrap it up, should stabilize most situations very quickly, perfect battlefield medicine.

That's pretty much what all battlefield medicine comes down to. Stabilize the soldier enough to get him to the field hospital, where they can do more extensive work or stabilize him further to send him to a fully-equipped, secured, rearward hospital. The solutions mentioned in this thread won't get the soldier back up and fighting, they just greatly increase the chances of him getting the care he actually needs.

[Karst45]

Did he mean "no nanites," flat out? Or did he mean no self-replicating nanomachines? Because we're on the verge of having working nanomachines now, they just won't have the ability to build more of themselves.

So, it's possible to have nanotech without the gray goo scenario.

we already have nanotechnology in thing as simple as shampoo. It just not as flashy as those nanorobot in Startrek

[Mr Bojangles]

Did he mean "no nanites," flat out? Or did he mean no self-replicating nanomachines? Because we're on the verge of having working nanomachines now, they just won't have the ability to build more of themselves.

So, it's possible to have nanotech without the gray goo scenario.

we already have nanotechnology in thing as simple as shampoo. It just not as flashy as those nanorobot in Startrek

It's in soaps, paints, kitchenware, cars, computers. Kind of weird just how pervasive it is, given its relative newness. I meant actual machines capable of being programmed to do a job, but definitely nothing like Star Trek. No need for nightmare visions of the Borg.

[discord]

bojangles: just thinking how it would simplify things if you had ONE bottle of stuff to use if there is a open wound(probably the most common kind in any emergency) instead of three.

<edit>
although admittedly in most cases you just slap on a bandage and hope for the best, so a simple 'magic goo' that is just a bunch of 'good stuff' for just about any bleeding wound....seems like a good idea to me.
</edit>

[Arioch]

As with the bullets vs. lasers debate, a new technology has to be more than just higher tech; it has to do the job better/cheaper/faster. The goal of first aid isn't to repair the damage, but rather to keep the patient alive until he can be delivered into proper full medical care. Conventional bandages do that pretty well. I'm not sure that spraying artificial skin over an injury is really much of an improvement in the short term over a more conventional wound dressing, and it may actually be a hindrance when the patient gets to surgery and the doctors want to go in and survey, diagnose, and then repair the damage.

No doubt the future will have greatly improved antibiotics, analgesics and compounds to reduce bleeding, shock, etc., but I doubt that their application will look much different than it does today.

Micromachines will no doubt become an important part of in-hospital medical treatment (as medical probes are today), carefully directed by doctors (or at least large-scale medical computers), but I'm dubious about their applications in first aid. I don't think you'd want to trust such machines to diagnose and treat an injury on their own; the potential to do more harm than good seems very high to me.

Self-replicating nanomachines are problematic. The "gray goo" concept presents serious technical challenges with how to power, direct, and (most importantly) keep control over the machines that I think would require extremely high technology to solve. Whether this is so or not, the availability of "nano-buddies" will propel any story firmly into the realm of superscience.

[Mr Bojangles]

As with the bullets vs. lasers debate, a new technology has to be more than just higher tech; it has to do the job better/cheaper/faster. The goal of first aid isn't to repair the damage, but rather to keep the patient alive until he can be delivered into proper full medical care. Conventional bandages do that pretty well. I'm not sure that spraying artificial skin over an injury is really much of an improvement in the short term over a more conventional wound dressing, and it may actually be a hindrance when the patient gets to surgery and the doctors want to go in and survey, diagnose, and then repair the damage.

No doubt the future will have greatly improved antibiotics, analgesics and compounds to reduce bleeding, shock, etc., but I doubt that their application will look much different than it does today.

Micromachines will no doubt become an important part of in-hospital medical treatment (as medical probes are today), carefully directed by doctors (or at least large-scale medical computers), but I'm dubious about their applications in first aid. I don't think you'd want to trust such machines to diagnose and treat an injury on their own; the potential to do more harm than good seems very high to me.

Self-replicating nanomachines are problematic. The "gray goo" concept presents serious technical challenges with how to power, direct, and (most importantly) keep control over the machines that I think would require extremely high technology to solve. Whether this is so or not, the availability of "nano-buddies" will propel any story firmly into the realm of superscience.

I would think that nanomachines would be overkill in a field first aid situation. As has been pointed out, field first aid is about stabilization, not actually fixing the problem. I could see a place for nanotech, though. You know, nano-engineered medicines that allow for more efficient delivery, or perhaps tracers that could help a doctor better identify the extent of an injury when the patient finally arrives.

I definitely agree with you about the feasibility of self-replicating nanomachines, as would most rational scientists and engineers. And I honestly consider those hurdles a good thing. Gray goo freaks me out.

[Trantor]

I could see a place for nanotech, though. You know, nano-engineered medicines that allow for more efficient delivery, or perhaps tracers that could help a doctor better identify the extent of an injury when the patient finally arrives.

Nanobots serving as "OBD" in humans? Cool idea!

[Karst45]

Micromachines will no doubt become an important part of in-hospital medical treatment (as medical probes are today), carefully directed by doctors

Doctor: I need 50CC of micromachine
Nurse:Here doctor
Doctor: it not working were losing him!

[Mr Bojangles]

I could see a place for nanotech, though. You know, nano-engineered medicines that allow for more efficient delivery, or perhaps tracers that could help a doctor better identify the extent of an injury when the patient finally arrives.

Nanobots serving as "OBD" in humans? Cool idea!

"OBD" for humans is very nearly here. Just look into nanomedicine. Biosciences + Nanoelectronics = some crazy stuff. Cyborgs really aren't so far-fetched anymore.