Outsider Ground War

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

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Trantor
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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Trantor »

Muttley wrote:...Heisenberg...
Oh, jeez.
So how about von Ardenne? That guy got the Stalin-medal for his work on the soviet bomb. Or von Weizsäcker? Or Wirtz? Diebner? Harteck? Döpel? von Laue? Bothe? Gentner? Korsching? Joos? .... a hundred names more, or more.

Muttley wrote:The unnamed paper you once read was wrong.
<max arrogance>
You´re talking to an engineer of the very nation that developed nuclear fission.
</max arrogance>
:mrgreen:

Muttley wrote:It was not technically possible for the Nazi program to produce a nuclear bomb.
Mebbe´ for Heisenberg.
But that paper analysed the max possibility (and possible drawbacks) if everything would have worked out as planned (which is more or less unlikely due to various uncertanties) and was max funded.
The Manhattan project was about 2bn$ (26bn$ in todays money), which would not have been out of reach for Germany. We´re no poor hillbillies, and we weren´t back then.

Muttley wrote:Naval warfare is a bloody business, and sailors will almost always pick up survivors from either side once the battle is done, acknowledging a deeper bond between all those that go down to the sea in ships.
Is that so? So why did your glory royal navy then leave behind 1500+ survivors of the Bismarck to die?
sapere aude.

JQBogus
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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by JQBogus »

Smithy (in the post just above the one you quote) says that the ships picking up survivors were "spooked" by a U-boat.

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by JQBogus »

discord wrote:crazy guy: it is just possible humans have better ground pounder stuff compared to the main players, more because of refinement and perfection of equipment not basic technology.

I'd imagine humans ground forces would give the Loroi, at least, some cause for concern. A whole army with Lotai? Eeechh!

Suederwind
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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Suederwind »

@Trantor:
Wasn´t there this book called "Hitlers Bombe" in which it was proposed that some other, unofficial, group was working on a dirty bomb and even tested it? Some kind of atomic device build around hollow charges, if I remember correctly.
That thing (if it ever existed) was the closest thing to a atomic bomb the nazis ever build. Thank God!
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Trantor
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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Trantor »

Suederwind wrote:@Trantor:
Wasn´t there this book called "Hitlers Bombe" in which it was proposed that some other, unofficial, group was working on a dirty bomb and even tested it? Some kind of atomic device build around hollow charges, if I remember correctly.
That thing (if it ever existed) was the closest thing to a atomic bomb the nazis ever build. Thank God!
Yes, from R. Karlsch. A collection of rumors and could-have-beens. Like many other publications. Don´t know though how much of it is fiction or exaggeration.

But that paper i once read was no such thing, it was an analysis of the situation starting in autumn ´34, of course with (our) future knowledge, but with weighing pros and cons of different paths, and dealing with comprehensible numbers of cost, manpower and other things (From what we know today i would have placed my bet on von Ardenne). All hypotheticallly, yes, but as realistic as possible.

In reality though the Nazis came nowhere near the "big" bomb, and that wasn´t Heisenbergs or any other scientists fault, but a mere pathetic buerocratic act from a little nobody named Erich Schumann, who then was the chief penpusher at the HWA. His imagination was by far too insular to understand what he had before him. Like all the other penpushers above him, and not to forget the pathetic little WWI-infantryveteran at the top of the food chain.




JQBogus wrote:Smithy (in the post just above the one you quote) says that the ships picking up survivors were "spooked" by a U-boat.
That´s what they say (now). I say they took revenge for the Hood.
Or how likely is a surfacing of an uboat directly into the biggest amassment of hostile ships in the atlantic sea ever?
In fact the first uboat on "ground zero" arrived seven hours later.
sapere aude.

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Suederwind »

Yes, from R. Karlsch. A collection of rumors and could-have-beens. Like many other publications. Don´t know though how much of it is fiction or exaggeration.
A yes, that was it. Like many books of this kind, its entertaining to read, but I really have my doubts about how realistic it is.
You could compare it with the books from Erich von Däniken, although Karlsch work might be more realistic. ;)
That´s what they say (now). I say they took revenge for the Hood.
Or how likely is a surfacing of an uboat directly into the biggest amassment of hostile ships in the atlantic sea ever?
In fact the first uboat on "ground zero" arrived seven hours later.
Do you really think that?
I bed every german Uboot Kaleun would have fired his torpedoes in such a situation. But I have to agree: there was no german submarine there untill much later. The British just overreacted and I can not blame them for doing so. It was war after all...
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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by JQBogus »

Trantor wrote: That´s what they say (now). I say they took revenge for the Hood.
Or how likely is a surfacing of an uboat directly into the biggest amassment of hostile ships in the atlantic sea ever?
In fact the first uboat on "ground zero" arrived seven hours later.
Getting 'spooked' hardly requires that a u-boat surfaces, nor does it even require the actual presence of a u-boat.

And if it was cold blooded revenge, why pick up any survivors at all?

You are, of course, welcomed to believe what you like.

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Trantor
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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Trantor »

Suederwind wrote:...
Däniken...
:D
thx, that name always makes me smile.

Suederwind wrote:Do you really think that?
I do.
sapere aude.

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Re: Outsider Ground War

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thx, that name always makes me smile.
You are not the only one... :lol:
But, I must admit that I think his books are really entertaining.
I do.
Thats kind of sad.
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Re: Outsider Ground War

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Suederwind wrote:Thats kind of sad.
Well, there were a*****s on allied side, too.
sapere aude.

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Suederwind »

Well, there were a*****s on allied side, too.
It was war. There have been a.....s on both sides. But more on ours, thats a fact.
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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Trantor »

Suederwind wrote:
Well, there were a*****s on allied side, too.
It was war. There have been a.....s on both sides. But more on ours, thats a fact.
Wouldn´t bet on that one, at least not for the lower ranked soldiers aka the german version of Joe Sixpack.
For upper Nazis, yes, they´re assholes by definition.
sapere aude.

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Suederwind »

Wouldn´t bet on that one, at least not for the lower ranked soldiers aka the german version of Joe Sixpack.
We were not talking about "Schütze Arsch" here, I think...
Whats your deffinition of "upper Nazi"?
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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Trantor »

Suederwind wrote:
Wouldn´t bet on that one, at least not for the lower ranked soldiers aka the german version of Joe Sixpack.
We were not talking about "Schütze Arsch" here, I think...
Well, there were even good officers. E.g. google "Laconia-incident", but be prepared, you will read about good germans and ugly americans. Not quite what fits into that what´s "official history" today...
;)
Suederwind wrote:Whats your deffinition of "upper Nazi"?
The upper ranks, and the 1000%-dudes.
sapere aude.

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Suederwind »

Well, there were even good officers. E.g. google "Laconia-incident", but be prepared, you will read about good germans and ugly americans. Not quite what fits into that what´s "official history" today...
I know of the Laconia. The problem is that there were people like Klaus Barbie on our side and the british or US boys did not have something like the SS.
The upper ranks, and the 1000%-dudes.
You can not go down the ranks and say everyone after "Hauptmann" was guilty. It doesn' t work that way.
Like I said, it was war and crimes happend everywere, as stupid as it may sound.
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Re: Outsider Ground War

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Suederwind wrote:
Well, there were even good officers. E.g. google "Laconia-incident", but be prepared, you will read about good germans and ugly americans. Not quite what fits into that what´s "official history" today...
I know of the Laconia. The problem is that there were people like Klaus Barbie on our side and the british or US boys did not have something like the SS.
Correct.
But that doesn´t mean we should believe entirely in black/white-schematics, written by the victors.

Suederwind wrote:
The upper ranks, and the 1000%-dudes.
You can not go down the ranks and say everyone after "Hauptmann" was guilty. It doesn' t work that way.
Never said that.
sapere aude.

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Absalom »

Trantor wrote:
Suederwind wrote:
Well, there were even good officers. E.g. google "Laconia-incident", but be prepared, you will read about good germans and ugly americans. Not quite what fits into that what´s "official history" today...
I know of the Laconia. The problem is that there were people like Klaus Barbie on our side and the british or US boys did not have something like the SS.
Correct.
But that doesn´t mean we should believe entirely in black/white-schematics, written by the victors.
Just so long as you don't turn into the Japanese. "The winners always write the history books... unless the losers are the Japanese."

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Just a Crazy-Man »

What are the rules of war for ground combat?

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by JQBogus »

Just a Crazy-Man wrote:What are the rules of war for ground combat?

The shooty end points towards the enemy?

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Re: Outsider Ground War

Post by Just a Crazy-Man »

What of Civilians?

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