14.12.1972

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by fredgiblet »

Trantor wrote:those neocon-rats turned this planet into a casino, where everyone except the upper 10k loses.
Heads, I win. Tails, you lose.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by GeoModder »

Nope. Heads, I win. Tails, I win too. :P
Image

Victor_D
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:46 am
Location: Czech Rep., European Union

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Victor_D »

Trantor wrote:(bunch of one liners)
All right, for a moment I though you actually could provide an intelligent answer. You got me :oops:
No, equatorial bases are only good for GTO, or equatorial LEO.
Please go return your degree.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Absalom »

Trantor wrote:This is BTW IMHO also relevant to outsider: I can see some parallels between the Loroi and the late Victorian society, both think they´re invincible, and both are on the brink of an upcoming unpleasant surprise.
You got your tenses wrong. Both already had their nasty surprises, the question is if they'll remain in a downward slide or manage to claw their way back up.
Trantor wrote:
Smithy wrote:Oh and she's gorgeous.
You misspelled "ugly" quite a little...
Hey, it didn't spend all of it's time with it's nose down! (yes, I read the rest of the post)
Trantor wrote:
Smithy wrote:Onwards to the defense of concord!
tl,dr. ;)
No, really, the Concorde was a fine plane, i loved the sound when her reheaters fired up at the take-off run, but she WAS a commercial failure.
In a way, this is the fault of my home state. Back when they did the supersonic tests here, glass windows would shatter and drywall would crack. Suffice to say, there were complaints.
Trantor wrote:
Smithy wrote:with still no equal.
Well, except the Concordsky, an even bigger commercial failure...
How DID the Russians ever fit that many vacuum tubes in there :lol: ?
Smithy wrote:
Trantor wrote:Yeah, that´s the british "Dolchstosslegende".
It may have contributed, but the main reasons were the constant ingnoring of customers demands (esp international) and the utterly lousy "quality" of british cars.
Or car-lookalikes.
[snip]

It was a toxic environment for industry, and it's no surprise it kinda died. They're green shoots, but I find it hard to believe their will ever be a large "British" car company again.

That be said, there are Hondas and Toyotas that have been designed and constructed here in the Uk, and are now marketed in Japan as "British" because apparently they dig that kinda stuff.
~2002 I found it hard to believe that Detroit would survive the next two decades, but Ford didn't even need a bailout. As long as you hold down "flush" hard enough, industries can often (I won't say always) recover.
Smithy wrote:Your country and Japan were virtually annihilated, at the cost of driving ourselves into total bankruptcy (hence the loss of Empire). With large American investment
WW2: because the Europeans got their way the first time (note: feel free to blame the French, us Americans always consider them fair game... "Victory Gardens" required a full-blown war, "Freedom Fries" didn't).
Trantor wrote:
Smithy wrote:You Germans do like your airships
That´s why i hate the Cargolifter and von Gablenz and his thugs. And all the silly twats that helped to fund this POS.

They effectively finished off serious investments in Zeppelins in Germany for all time. B****ds.
I'm sure that in 50 years it'll be revisited.

Unless you have an idea that's dubious enough to swing DARPA funding stuffed in your back pocket, of course. I myself have occasionally wondered if an airship could be used as a launch vehicle, though my general assumption is admittedly "no".
Trantor wrote:
Smithy wrote:(anything heavily dependent on the weather is always a bit suspect really).
Weather would not be of big concern to a real (new) Zeppelin, since there´s a pretty good forecast today, and shelters aren´t that expensive in comparison to those needed for the CL.
Oh? I though the reason was "because noone uses rocket fuel to weatherproof aircraft anymore"?
Trantor wrote:Well, the He178 with HeS3 was faster than your ugly duck. Go figure. ;)
Ugly ducklings traditionally turn out to be swans, try again ;) .
Trantor wrote:Yes, the only way out was developing new ideas and products. Result was e.g. the VW Beetle, one of the best-selling cars of all time, FM-radio, since the allied blocked all frequencies (haha, talk about shooting yourself in the foot),
Having heard AM radio here in America, we seriously didn't shoot ourselves in the foot.

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Trantor »

Victor_D wrote:All right, for a moment I though you actually could provide an intelligent answer. You got me :oops:

Please go return your degree.
<Stillstorm>
"It´s ad hominem is disappointing."
</Stillstorm>
sapere aude.

Victor_D
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:46 am
Location: Czech Rep., European Union

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Victor_D »

Trantor wrote:(...)
I was merely commenting on your disappointing lack of credible arguments, which makes your arrogant demeanour even more baffling.

I am new here, so I didn't know what to expect. Lesson learned.

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Trantor »

Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:This is BTW IMHO also relevant to outsider: I can see some parallels between the Loroi and the late Victorian society, both think they´re invincible, and both are on the brink of an upcoming unpleasant surprise.
You got your tenses wrong. Both already had their nasty surprises, the question is if they'll remain in a downward slide or manage to claw their way back up.
Can you specify your thought, please? Of which year, or let´s say decade are you refering? There´s sth lost in translation to me (not your fault!).

Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:No, really, the Concorde was a fine plane, i loved the sound when her reheaters fired up at the take-off run, but she WAS a commercial failure.
In a way, this is the fault of my home state. Back when they did the supersonic tests here, glass windows would shatter and drywall would crack. Suffice to say, there were complaints.
Well, the engineers answer would have been V 2.0 with less noise and better subsonic efficiency.

Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:
Smithy wrote:with still no equal.
Well, except the Concordsky, an even bigger commercial failure...
How DID the Russians ever fit that many vacuum tubes in there :lol: ?
Well, at least this thingies were EMP-proven. :mrgreen:

Absalom wrote:~2002 I found it hard to believe that Detroit would survive the next two decades, but Ford didn't even need a bailout. As long as you hold down "flush" hard enough, industries can often (I won't say always) recover.
Hm, how about abandoning the idea of "too big to fail" and just let them crash? After the first shock the competiton profits, business returns to normal within three or four years, but no taxmoney is wasted.

Absalom wrote:I'm sure that in 50 years it'll be revisited.
Cargolifter? Hopefully not.
Zeppelins? Hopefully earlier.

Absalom wrote:I myself have occasionally wondered if an airship could be used as a launch vehicle, though my general assumption is admittedly "no".
Well, Zeppelins are no universal answer, but they can serve in many niches. I could see a market big enough to be profitable. At least a little.

Absalom wrote:Oh? I though the reason was "because noone uses rocket fuel to weatherproof aircraft anymore"?
Helium?

Absalom wrote:Ugly ducklings traditionally turn out to be swans, try again ;) .
Not in mad-cow-disease-country. scnr.

Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:Yes, the only way out was developing new ideas and products. Result was e.g. the VW Beetle, one of the best-selling cars of all time, FM-radio, since the allied blocked all frequencies (haha, talk about shooting yourself in the foot),
Having heard AM radio here in America, we seriously didn't shoot ourselves in the foot.
This (still big market share of AM radio in the US) is a phenomenon to me. I visited the states (in the 80ies) and AM radio to me was lousy sounding and utterly backwards. You couldn´t even listen to it in the car, except when it stood still. No comparison to European FM and especially (now defunct) German "Travel-ARI"-system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahrer ... ionssystem).
sapere aude.

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Trantor »

Victor_D wrote:I was merely commenting on your disappointing lack of credible arguments
So i guess it would be utterly easy to instantly come up with far better arguments, no?

Victor_D wrote:which makes your arrogant demeanour even more baffling.
"Don´t get distracted by the staging, it´s all for the entertainment purpose."
(BTW: Again ad hominem?)

Victor_D wrote:I am new here, so I didn't know what to expect. Lesson learned.
Yes, welcome to ze internets.

Plus a Carrie Mistmass! And a Yappy! You Hear? :mrgreen:
sapere aude.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Absalom »

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:This is BTW IMHO also relevant to outsider: I can see some parallels between the Loroi and the late Victorian society, both think they´re invincible, and both are on the brink of an upcoming unpleasant surprise.
You got your tenses wrong. Both already had their nasty surprises, the question is if they'll remain in a downward slide or manage to claw their way back up.
Can you specify your thought, please? Of which year, or let´s say decade are you refering? There´s sth lost in translation to me (not your fault!).
The British Empire is already dead, and the Loroi have already had two massive blows to their military might. You used future tense, I think that past tense would work and be guaranteed accurate.

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:No, really, the Concorde was a fine plane, i loved the sound when her reheaters fired up at the take-off run, but she WAS a commercial failure.
In a way, this is the fault of my home state. Back when they did the supersonic tests here, glass windows would shatter and drywall would crack. Suffice to say, there were complaints.
Well, the engineers answer would have been V 2.0 with less noise and better subsonic efficiency.
I believe the tests were done with unrelated fighter jets. Besides, there's also the competitors we dream about every once in a while, so the politicians would likely have fought against it regardless.

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:~2002 I found it hard to believe that Detroit would survive the next two decades, but Ford didn't even need a bailout. As long as you hold down "flush" hard enough, industries can often (I won't say always) recover.
Hm, how about abandoning the idea of "too big to fail" and just let them crash? After the first shock the competiton profits, business returns to normal within three or four years, but no taxmoney is wasted.
I favor taking a chainsaw to them and reinstating the old regulations. Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:I'm sure that in 50 years it'll be revisited.
Cargolifter? Hopefully not.
Zeppelins? Hopefully earlier.
I'm sure that within areas with poor access & low wind speeds something with the business plan of Cargolifter could work.

Personally, I'd probably just go with a Blimp, but I'm sure that it could work. If you meet both those criteria.

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:I myself have occasionally wondered if an airship could be used as a launch vehicle, though my general assumption is admittedly "no".
Well, Zeppelins are no universal answer, but they can serve in many niches. I could see a market big enough to be profitable. At least a little.
Ah, but can they actually get beyond the atmosphere? I figure the rule is probably "enough fuel to leave the atmosphere, or enough lift to float: choose one".

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:Oh? I though the reason was "because noone uses rocket fuel to weatherproof aircraft anymore"?
Helium?
No, seriously, cloth skinned aircraft of the time were coated in a mixture that apparently resembles the fuel in the Shuttle's solid rocket boosters. Those flames while the Hindenburg went down? Not hydrogen. There might have still been a fire, but I recall reading that if they were using modern weatherproofing materials then the Hindenburg would have landed softly enough that everyone could have escaped.

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:Yes, the only way out was developing new ideas and products. Result was e.g. the VW Beetle, one of the best-selling cars of all time, FM-radio, since the allied blocked all frequencies (haha, talk about shooting yourself in the foot),
Having heard AM radio here in America, we seriously didn't shoot ourselves in the foot.
This (still big market share of AM radio in the US) is a phenomenon to me. I visited the states (in the 80ies) and AM radio to me was lousy sounding and utterly backwards. You couldn´t even listen to it in the car, except when it stood still. No comparison to European FM and especially (now defunct) German "Travel-ARI"-system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahrer ... ionssystem).
Sounds like you had a weird radio tuner, but yes, the quality is horrible. The reason why it still exists (at least as far as I can tell) is that there's less demand from the various radio industries, so low-fidelity stuff like e.g. Rush Limbaugh has an easier time getting a station allocation.

After all, if it's just Limbaugh, who cares how high the audio quality is?

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Trantor »

Absalom wrote:The British Empire is already dead, and the Loroi have already had two massive blows to their military might. You used future tense, I think that past tense would work and be guaranteed accurate.
Ah, this. No, i said "late Victorian society", and by that i meant England at the dawn of WW2. Sorry for the confusion.

Absalom wrote:Besides, there's also the competitors we dream about every once in a while, so the politicians would likely have fought against it regardless.
Yes, Boeing also had a SST project.

Absalom wrote:Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.
I have the distinct feeling that currently they are doing exactly this.

Absalom wrote:I'm sure that within areas with poor access & low wind speeds something with the business plan of Cargolifter could work.
Not CL.
But a Zeppelin can be used to tow an unmotorized freightblimp or -balloon.

Absalom wrote:Ah, but can they actually get beyond the atmosphere?
No, it is even uneconomic to go above 2500ft.

Absalom wrote:No, seriously, cloth skinned aircraft of the time were coated in a mixture that apparently resembles the fuel in the Shuttle's solid rocket boosters. Those flames while the Hindenburg went down? Not hydrogen.
Ah, the skin, yes. Aluminium and ironoxide. But the fire was hydrogen.

Absalom wrote:There might have still been a fire
When hydrogen once starts to burn it burns way too fast to stop it.

Absalom wrote:but I recall reading that if they were using modern weatherproofing materials then the Hindenburg would have landed softly enough that everyone could have escaped.
Well, if they were allowed to buy Helium, there wouldn´t have been a catastrophe at all...

Absalom wrote:Sounds like you had a weird radio tuner, but yes, the quality is horrible. The reason why it still exists (at least as far as I can tell) is that there's less demand from the various radio industries, so low-fidelity stuff like e.g. Rush Limbaugh has an easier time getting a station allocation.

After all, if it's just Limbaugh, who cares how high the audio quality is?
Had to google him, from what i read i don´t like him. A showpiece of an ugly stupid american.
sapere aude.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by fredgiblet »

Absalom wrote:I favor taking a chainsaw to them and reinstating the old regulations. Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.
But Absalom, the Invisible Hand will make us all prosperous and rich if we just remove all the regulations! Why do you hate America?! Are you a Communist?!?!? BURN HIM!!!!!!!
Trantor wrote:Had to google him, from what i read i don´t like him. A showpiece of an ugly stupid american.
My grandpa loves him. It's why I avoid talking to him when I can (which is thankfully almost always).

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Absalom »

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.
I have the distinct feeling that currently they are doing exactly this.
Over here in America they certainly are. From a certain perspective we can even blame the current mess on Clinton, because he actually reduced US regulations (specifically, some that dated to the Great Depression).
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:I'm sure that within areas with poor access & low wind speeds something with the business plan of Cargolifter could work.
Not CL.
But a Zeppelin can be used to tow an unmotorized freightblimp or -balloon.
Other than the CL having less structural reinforcement (by virtual of being a semi-rigid instead of a rigid), I'm not really certain what the big difference was.

Why tow, though? Do Zeppelins not have the needed lifting capacity?
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:No, seriously, cloth skinned aircraft of the time were coated in a mixture that apparently resembles the fuel in the Shuttle's solid rocket boosters. Those flames while the Hindenburg went down? Not hydrogen.
Ah, the skin, yes. Aluminium and ironoxide. But the fire was hydrogen.
The hydrogen was surely burning (I can't imagine how it wouldn't be) but the flames captured in the photos were apparently the color of burning aluminum (either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics published a letter written by someone that worked in NASA, that they got in response to an article about the Hindenburg). Furthermore, the skin was obviously struck first, so the fire logically started there. A modern skin with lightning protection likely wouldn't have had the problem.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:There might have still been a fire
When hydrogen once starts to burn it burns way too fast to stop it.
I'm saying that I'm not certain if the fire actually would have started, not whether any fire could have been stopped.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:but I recall reading that if they were using modern weatherproofing materials then the Hindenburg would have landed softly enough that everyone could have escaped.
Well, if they were allowed to buy Helium, there wouldn´t have been a catastrophe at all...
The next generation of Zeppelins probably won't be able to get helium either, since some idiot (US government) started selling it on the open market where it gets used for party balloons all the time.

Guess someone better start working out how to build a Zeppelin based on vacuum bags, instead of helium gas bags.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:[snip]

After all, if it's just Limbaugh, who cares how high the audio quality is?
Had to google him, from what i read i don´t like him. A showpiece of an ugly stupid american.
Before I'd ever heard him, I saw a book that he apparently wrote called "I told you so". I disliked him immediately. Then I heard him say that in response to the US government banning the sale of incandescents he was going to stockpile them (or something along those lines, I forget the details), which just clinched the deal.
fredgiblet wrote:
Absalom wrote:I favor taking a chainsaw to them and reinstating the old regulations. Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.
But Absalom, the Invisible Hand will make us all prosperous and rich if we just remove all the regulations! Why do you hate America?! Are you a Communist?!?!? BURN HIM!!!!!!!
Actually I love America, that's why I dislike the Invisible Hand, they're all Neo-Royalists :mrgreen: .

More seriously, they tend to be either idiots who don't know about the actual economics (Ayn Rand fans!), or greedy. A rising tide does indeed lift all boats, but the boats are the upper class, which means that if the lower and middle class don't "rise", the upper class starts to lose money. Every time I hear someone support anarchism or libertarianism (or even financial deregulation) I wind up thinking "that idiot".

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Trantor »

Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.
I have the distinct feeling that currently they are doing exactly this.
Over here in America they certainly are. From a certain perspective we can even blame the current mess on Clinton, because he actually reduced US regulations (specifically, some that dated to the Great Depression).
It´s worse here in Europe. Just look how Adolf Merkel and the banksters rob out everyone. Look how they clobber the greek. I´m really ashamed of this thugs and this sick system.

Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:I'm sure that within areas with poor access & low wind speeds something with the business plan of Cargolifter could work.
Not CL.
But a Zeppelin can be used to tow an unmotorized freightblimp or -balloon.
Other than the CL having less structural reinforcement (by virtual of being a semi-rigid instead of a rigid), I'm not really certain what the big difference was.
Lotsa details - aerodynamics be the first.
Gah, the whole concept was crap.

Absalom wrote:Why tow, though? Do Zeppelins not have the needed lifting capacity?
Think about the whole process, especially loading and unloading. A Zeppelin is expensive, and dawdling around while lifting gas and freight are being transferred costs money. For comparable reasons the semi-trailer trucks were invented.
More important, it is dangerous, because the lifting body has to be rigged in the middle (or exactly above the freight-COG) in that process, and a rigid airship doesn´t respond to that very well, especially in windy circumstances (In fact it doesn´t even work well in still air).
A balloon is way easier to handle. You can even just blow off the gas (depends on the price though, it´ll be better hydrogen) and fold the ballon on-site for re-use.
And even if there´s a mishap while handling, it´s only the balloon, not the expensive Zep.

Absalom wrote:The hydrogen was surely burning (I can't imagine how it wouldn't be) but the flames captured in the photos were apparently the color of burning aluminum
Hydrogen burns way faster than aluminium, i think it´s the gas igniting the hull.

Absalom wrote:Guess someone better start working out how to build a Zeppelin based on vacuum bags, instead of helium gas bags.
I´m pretty sure it´s easier to develop anti-grav...

Absalom wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:But Absalom, the Invisible Hand will make us all prosperous and rich if we just remove all the regulations! Why do you hate America?! Are you a Communist?!?!? BURN HIM!!!!!!!
Actually I love America, that's why I dislike the Invisible Hand, they're all Neo-Royalists :mrgreen: .

More seriously, they tend to be either idiots who don't know about the actual economics (Ayn Rand fans!), or greedy. A rising tide does indeed lift all boats, but the boats are the upper class, which means that if the lower and middle class don't "rise", the upper class starts to lose money. Every time I hear someone support anarchism or libertarianism (or even financial deregulation) I wind up thinking "that idiot".
It is a relieve to see that obviously not all americans stopped thinking for themselves. Kudos!
sapere aude.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Absalom »

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:I have the distinct feeling that currently they are doing exactly this.
Over here in America they certainly are. From a certain perspective we can even blame the current mess on Clinton, because he actually reduced US regulations (specifically, some that dated to the Great Depression).
It´s worse here in Europe. Just look how Adolf Merkel and the banksters rob out everyone. Look how they clobber the greek. I´m really ashamed of this thugs and this sick system.
Oh, from a certain perspective they're right, it's just that it's a perspective that's doing to the Greeks what the French & British did to Germany at the end of WW1. Apparently Europe never changes.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Trantor wrote:Not CL.
But a Zeppelin can be used to tow an unmotorized freightblimp or -balloon.
Other than the CL having less structural reinforcement (by virtual of being a semi-rigid instead of a rigid), I'm not really certain what the big difference was.
Lotsa details - aerodynamics be the first.
Largely from the lack of nose and tail reinforcements, right?
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:Why tow, though? Do Zeppelins not have the needed lifting capacity?
Think about the whole process, especially loading and unloading. A Zeppelin is expensive, and dawdling around while lifting gas and freight are being transferred costs money. For comparable reasons the semi-trailer trucks were invented.
More important, it is dangerous, because the lifting body has to be rigged in the middle (or exactly above the freight-COG) in that process, and a rigid airship doesn´t respond to that very well, especially in windy circumstances (In fact it doesn´t even work well in still air).
A balloon is way easier to handle. You can even just blow off the gas (depends on the price though, it´ll be better hydrogen) and fold the ballon on-site for re-use.
And even if there´s a mishap while handling, it´s only the balloon, not the expensive Zep.
All good points, except that I would expect the actual rigging to consist of preparing the cargo-side lines first, grounding the Zeppelin when it arrives, and then quickly attaching the Zeppelin-side harness to the Cargo-side harness. So, speed shouldn't be of much concern (you did remember to stipulate that every minute that the sender requires to rig their cargo TO the Zeppelin is charged to them, right ;) ? ), though I don't know that this would help much (if at all) with stability. And, of course, it would require semi-standardized tie points, which might get you stuck with a fixed size of airship if it's poorly thought out.

Yeah, I guess cheapo-blimps would make more sense for the actual carrying portion. And, for that matter, that would actually increase the cargo capacity of the zeppelin, in much the same way that barges (vastly) increase the carrying capacity of tugs.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:The hydrogen was surely burning (I can't imagine how it wouldn't be) but the flames captured in the photos were apparently the color of burning aluminum
Hydrogen burns way faster than aluminium, i think it´s the gas igniting the hull.
The hydrogen wouldn't have been exposed to air, so unless the lightning blew out the skin without igniting it (which I find highly dubious), the hull caught fire first. Also worth noting is that another letter that they published was from someone who had flown cloth-skinned airplanes at some point after metal had become the norm. At one point, an instructor took a piece of cloth with roughly the same coating as the Hindenburg had, and dropped it onto their stove. The coating was sufficiently temperature-sensitive that it immediately burst into flames. Seriously, the Hindenburg was coated in "rocket" fuel, the hydrogen was just gasoline thrown onto an already-lit fire.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:Guess someone better start working out how to build a Zeppelin based on vacuum bags, instead of helium gas bags.
I´m pretty sure it´s easier to develop anti-grav...
If we can get sufficient production of carbon nanotubes going then we'll have the structural portion of the vacuum bag ready, which will leave a sealant for the bag (which might not be needed, depending on how the structural portion is built), the internal tension members (to keep the bag from collapsing), cables to keep the tension members in the correct alignment (imagine a tank-trap made from three I-beams), and the cushioning that you stick onto the ends of the tension members to keep them from ripping the bag.

Whereas we can't yet confirm that anti-grav can work :p .

A vacuum-zeppelin would be (technologically, at least) easier than a true anti-grav device.

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Trantor »

Absalom wrote:Largely from the lack of nose and tail reinforcements, right?
And the general shape, especially under load.

Absalom wrote:All good points, except that I would expect the actual rigging to consist of preparing the cargo-side lines first, grounding the Zeppelin when it arrives, and then quickly attaching the Zeppelin-side harness to the Cargo-side harness.
Ah, i detect a fundamental misunderstanding: Zeppelins do not "fly", so they do not "land". Zeppelins sail, and they do this without so-called aerodynamic "weight". So you can´t just attach cargo without transferring gas.
And ballast is no solution, because where to get ballast from at the unloading site? When you can haul ballast, you can haul freight also. No need for a blimp then. This was also a fundamental flaw to the Cl.

And then: A Zeppelin is called "rigid" per definition, but in fact it isn´t.
No chance of simply attaching a huge weight to a point.
You have to distribute the weight over the better part of the whole length.
The CL would have "solved" this problem by it´s carbon-fiber backbone (which in reality doesn´t work, because there will never be autoclaves big/long enough to produce them; heck, detaaails!).

Absalom wrote:Yeah, I guess cheapo-blimps would make more sense for the actual carrying portion. And, for that matter, that would actually increase the cargo capacity of the zeppelin, in much the same way that barges (vastly) increase the carrying capacity of tugs.
Exactly. There are already commercial solutions for up to 75 metric tons of lift, and they´re used as cranes on very remote construction sites. With little modification they can be used as trailers.

Absalom wrote:Seriously, the Hindenburg was coated in "rocket" fuel, the hydrogen was just gasoline thrown onto an already-lit fire.
Yes, but it remains to be proved if/how far a fire on the skin would have damaged the lifting cells, if they were filled with helium.

Absalom wrote:If we can get sufficient production of carbon nanotubes going then we'll have the structural portion of the vacuum bag ready, which will leave a sealant for the bag (which might not be needed, depending on how the structural portion is built), the internal tension members (to keep the bag from collapsing), cables to keep the tension members in the correct alignment (imagine a tank-trap made from three I-beams), and the cushioning that you stick onto the ends of the tension members to keep them from ripping the bag.

Whereas we can't yet confirm that anti-grav can work :p .

A vacuum-zeppelin would be (technologically, at least) easier than a true anti-grav device.
You underestimate vacuum and pressure issues quite a little. Differential pressure is a strong power, i once saw a test, where they blew open a safe with only a few hundred millibar (!) internal pressure peak. So i´m pretty sure that nano-thingies won´t work because of too much structural weight.
Remember, a cubic metre of air is roughly only 1,1 kg of weight on sea level, and a cubic metre of helium has roughly only 1 kg of lift at the same level. If you ascend, this capability decreases quickly. That´s why it is even uneconomic to go above 2500ft.
sapere aude.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Absalom »

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:Largely from the lack of nose and tail reinforcements, right?
And the general shape, especially under load.
Ah, they would curve like a banana, got it.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:All good points, except that I would expect the actual rigging to consist of preparing the cargo-side lines first, grounding the Zeppelin when it arrives, and then quickly attaching the Zeppelin-side harness to the Cargo-side harness.
Ah, i detect a fundamental misunderstanding: Zeppelins do not "fly", so they do not "land". Zeppelins sail, and they do this without so-called aerodynamic "weight". So you can´t just attach cargo without transferring gas.
And ballast is no solution, because where to get ballast from at the unloading site? When you can haul ballast, you can haul freight also. No need for a blimp then. This was also a fundamental flaw to the Cl.
Why would I suggest ballast, don't zeppelins normally have the capability to compress their lift gas while pumping normal atmosphere into additional gas cells contained inside the normal ones? I was certain that I'd seen a mention somewhere of at least some lighter-than-air craft using a system like this.
Trantor wrote:And then: A Zeppelin is called "rigid" per definition, but in fact it isn´t.
No chance of simply attaching a huge weight to a point.
You have to distribute the weight over the better part of the whole length.
The CL would have "solved" this problem by it´s carbon-fiber backbone (which in reality doesn´t work, because there will never be autoclaves big/long enough to produce them; heck, detaaails!).
I imagine that a "cargo spine" could be done, but I certainly wouldn't want to try to integrate it into the actual airship. Better to design it as an accessory that you connect to standardized mounting points, and then use to redistribute the weight of whatever you're moving. And, of course, the weight would count against the allocated weight, and the customer would be required to supply the spine.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:If we can get sufficient production of carbon nanotubes going then we'll have the structural portion of the vacuum bag ready, which will leave a sealant for the bag (which might not be needed, depending on how the structural portion is built), the internal tension members (to keep the bag from collapsing), cables to keep the tension members in the correct alignment (imagine a tank-trap made from three I-beams), and the cushioning that you stick onto the ends of the tension members to keep them from ripping the bag.

Whereas we can't yet confirm that anti-grav can work :p .

A vacuum-zeppelin would be (technologically, at least) easier than a true anti-grav device.
You underestimate vacuum and pressure issues quite a little. Differential pressure is a strong power, i once saw a test, where they blew open a safe with only a few hundred millibar (!) internal pressure peak. So i´m pretty sure that nano-thingies won´t work because of too much structural weight.
Remember, a cubic metre of air is roughly only 1,1 kg of weight on sea level, and a cubic metre of helium has roughly only 1 kg of lift at the same level. If you ascend, this capability decreases quickly. That´s why it is even uneconomic to go above 2500ft.
I haven't done the math (I don't care enough to do it), but remember that I'm talking about the stuff that they're proposing to eventually build a space elevator out of. I've never heard if it's any good in compression, but it's apparently the best that we know of for tension. Mere iron or steel (or aluminum, or whatever else was used) is not nearly as strong as this stuff is. As I said, I haven't done the math for it, but if anything could stand the tension, then it would be carbon nano-tubes. Just not the current stuff, since the production stuff is apparently weaker than some of the stuff that they can make in labs.

Really, the carbon nanotubes aren't the weak point of that particular idea. The weak point is the internal bracing, which I didn't even bother to suggest a material for. As far as I know, we don't have anything that can tolerate compression nearly as well as the stuff that we have for tension.

I'm not certain that your point about the lifting capacity of helium is particularly relevant, since I was suggesting vacuum bags as a solution to the inevitable helium shortage, not as a way of achieving Space Zeppelins! We're expected to run out within the foreseeable future, because the US government started selling it too widely.

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Trantor »

Absalom wrote:Why would I suggest ballast, don't zeppelins normally have the capability to compress their lift gas while pumping normal atmosphere into additional gas cells contained inside the normal ones?
No, they pushed air in to expel the lift gas (the valves were on the belly for safety reasons). But only in the older models. Later they invented "Blaugas" for fuel, which had the same specific weight as air, and they experimented with exhaustgas-condensers to obtain ballastwater from the engine-exhaust. But they had massive corrosion issues with these.

Absalom wrote:I imagine that a "cargo spine" could be done
Nono, you´re missing the point: A "rigid" airship has to be flexible to a certain degree, a rigid spine would damage it.

Absalom wrote:and the customer would be required to supply the spine.
Nah, too complicated. PAY for such a thing, maybe, but not provide their own.
But since it doesn´t work that way anyway, there´s no point.
Nope, a balloon to tow is IMHO the only way to go.

Absalom wrote:I haven't done the math (I don't care enough to do it), but remember that I'm talking about the stuff that they're proposing to eventually build a space elevator out of.
Space elevators will never work, at least not here on earth, because only one hit from an orbiting satellite, and that thing is toast. 28000km/h = ~8000m/s, that´s 10x faster than 16" shells from a battleship. Do the math.

Absalom wrote:I'm not certain that your point about the lifting capacity of helium is particularly relevant, since I was suggesting vacuum bags as a solution to the inevitable helium shortage
Too much construction weight. That´s for. Even if there´s a vacuum, the whole construct will be waaay too heavy to even lift itself.

Absalom wrote:not as a way of achieving Space Zeppelins!
Couldn´t work anyway, since Zeps are limited to the lower atmosphere.

Absalom wrote:We're expected to run out within the foreseeable future, because the US government started selling it too widely.
That´s a shame.
sapere aude.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Absalom »

Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:I imagine that a "cargo spine" could be done
Nono, you´re missing the point: A "rigid" airship has to be flexible to a certain degree, a rigid spine would damage it.
You're missing my meaning, the "cargo spine" would be for the cargo, not the zeppelin. It would only be connected to the zeppelin (or blimp, more likely) with cables. The only real point of it would be to redistribute the weight of the cargo more evenly. For that matter, it presumably wouldn't be a monolithic structure anyways, I assume that any such things would be designed as a series of beams, each hanging from either two points on the airship, or from the centers of two beams a "level" closer to the airship. Only the "final" beam would be, itself, rigid, and it (like the others) would probably be a truss instead of a monolithic beam.

Though even that is only one of any number of possible designs.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:and the customer would be required to supply the spine.
Nah, too complicated. PAY for such a thing, maybe, but not provide their own.
But since it doesn´t work that way anyway, there´s no point.
Nope, a balloon to tow is IMHO the only way to go.
It would be applicable for blimps as well (though presumably not for balloons). And the customer "supplies" it because the cargo is attached to the spine, and the spine then cabled to the blimp. If the spine isn't already on-site and loaded with cargo when the zeppelin arrives, then it has to wait while the cargo is attached. The spine is the equivalent of a standard-size cargo container (though probably for out-size cargo), the lifting vehicle is the equivalent of a flatbed trailer.

Though this does assume a cargo that either requires alignment control, or is "support point dense" (such as a windmill tower held vertically).
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:I haven't done the math (I don't care enough to do it), but remember that I'm talking about the stuff that they're proposing to eventually build a space elevator out of.
Space elevators will never work, at least not here on earth, because only one hit from an orbiting satellite, and that thing is toast. 28000km/h = ~8000m/s, that´s 10x faster than 16" shells from a battleship. Do the math.
There's obviously some debate on that, since it's being worked on anyways (at least the last time I checked), but honestly, whether space elevators will work isn't relevant. I was pointing out that carbon nanotubes aren't the weak point in the proposal, the internal compression bracing is.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:I'm not certain that your point about the lifting capacity of helium is particularly relevant, since I was suggesting vacuum bags as a solution to the inevitable helium shortage
Too much construction weight. That´s for. Even if there´s a vacuum, the whole construct will be waaay too heavy to even lift itself.
Are you saying that the force exerted on the skin will scale with the volume of the bag, rather than the surface area? I was under the impression that surface area was what mattered, implying that once a specific design exceeds the "break even" size, it obtains net lift. If my understanding of basic gas physics is wrong, then please feel free to correct me.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:not as a way of achieving Space Zeppelins!
Couldn´t work anyway, since Zeps are limited to the lower atmosphere.
No problem, I thought it was unlikely that they'd have the hydrogen capacity to get through the upper atmosphere anyways.
Trantor wrote:
Absalom wrote:We're expected to run out within the foreseeable future, because the US government started selling it too widely.
That´s a shame.
Hence the vacuum-bag idea.

User avatar
Trantor
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: 14.12.1972

Post by Trantor »

Absalom wrote:You're missing my meaning, the "cargo spine" would be for the cargo, not the zeppelin.
I got that, but it still doesn´t work. A Zeppelin despite it´s huge dimensions is a very fragile object, and it must be that fragile and flexible to react on winds, windshear, lift differences due to air pressure, sunlight, weather, or internal changes like burning fuel or even people wandering around.
It is a static system of it´s own, and a spine or what ever is totally different. Too many variables, cannot compute.

Absalom wrote:I assume that any such things would be designed as a series of beams, each hanging from either two points on the airship
You will still imply contractive force. It is pretty impossible to construct a "spine" that could serve as you think.
Sure, you can throw money at that problem, but the outcome would still be unsatisfactory, either in terms of complexity, or in cost, or in net lift, since the spine eats up payload.

A Zep is only able to haul bulk cargo which can be distributed over the whole ship.

Absalom wrote:Though even that is only one of any number of possible designs.
KISS-priciple. ---> Balloon. ;)


Absalom wrote:Are you saying that the force exerted on the skin will scale with the volume of the bag, rather than the surface area?
No. But all the details make it fail. One bird pinching the surface - Kaboom. One faulty weld - Kaboom. One redneck firing upon it - Kaboom.
Zeps don´t have that problem. Even in WW1, when they were hit by multiple rounds they were able to maintain flight (except when they were hit with tracers). Since there´s no overpressure they bleeded gas only slowly, and so you just fixed that with stickers.
But with a difference of 1000mBar a hole always results in a catastrophic implosion.
sapere aude.

Post Reply