14.12.1972

[fredgiblet]

I favor taking a chainsaw to them and reinstating the old regulations. Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.

But Absalom, the Invisible Hand will make us all prosperous and rich if we just remove all the regulations! Why do you hate America?! Are you a Communist?!?!? BURN HIM!!!!!!!

Had to google him, from what i read i don´t like him. A showpiece of an ugly stupid american.

My grandpa loves him. It's why I avoid talking to him when I can (which is thankfully almost always).

[Absalom]

Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.

I have the distinct feeling that currently they are doing exactly this.

Over here in America they certainly are. From a certain perspective we can even blame the current mess on Clinton, because he actually reduced US regulations (specifically, some that dated to the Great Depression).

I'm sure that within areas with poor access & low wind speeds something with the business plan of Cargolifter could work.

Not CL.
But a Zeppelin can be used to tow an unmotorized freightblimp or -balloon.

Other than the CL having less structural reinforcement (by virtual of being a semi-rigid instead of a rigid), I'm not really certain what the big difference was.

Why tow, though? Do Zeppelins not have the needed lifting capacity?

No, seriously, cloth skinned aircraft of the time were coated in a mixture that apparently resembles the fuel in the Shuttle's solid rocket boosters. Those flames while the Hindenburg went down? Not hydrogen.

Ah, the skin, yes. Aluminium and ironoxide. But the fire was hydrogen.

The hydrogen was surely burning (I can't imagine how it wouldn't be) but the flames captured in the photos were apparently the color of burning aluminum (either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics published a letter written by someone that worked in NASA, that they got in response to an article about the Hindenburg). Furthermore, the skin was obviously struck first, so the fire logically started there. A modern skin with lightning protection likely wouldn't have had the problem.

There might have still been a fire

When hydrogen once starts to burn it burns way too fast to stop it.

I'm saying that I'm not certain if the fire actually would have started, not whether any fire could have been stopped.

but I recall reading that if they were using modern weatherproofing materials then the Hindenburg would have landed softly enough that everyone could have escaped.

Well, if they were allowed to buy Helium, there wouldn´t have been a catastrophe at all...

The next generation of Zeppelins probably won't be able to get helium either, since some idiot (US government) started selling it on the open market where it gets used for party balloons all the time.

Guess someone better start working out how to build a Zeppelin based on vacuum bags, instead of helium gas bags.

[snip]

After all, if it's just Limbaugh, who cares how high the audio quality is?

Had to google him, from what i read i don´t like him. A showpiece of an ugly stupid american.

Before I'd ever heard him, I saw a book that he apparently wrote called "I told you so". I disliked him immediately. Then I heard him say that in response to the US government banning the sale of incandescents he was going to stockpile them (or something along those lines, I forget the details), which just clinched the deal.

I favor taking a chainsaw to them and reinstating the old regulations. Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.

But Absalom, the Invisible Hand will make us all prosperous and rich if we just remove all the regulations! Why do you hate America?! Are you a Communist?!?!? BURN HIM!!!!!!!

Actually I love America, that's why I dislike the Invisible Hand, they're all Neo-Royalists .

More seriously, they tend to be either idiots who don't know about the actual economics (Ayn Rand fans!), or greedy. A rising tide does indeed lift all boats, but the boats are the upper class, which means that if the lower and middle class don't "rise", the upper class starts to lose money. Every time I hear someone support anarchism or libertarianism (or even financial deregulation) I wind up thinking "that idiot".

[Trantor]

Banking regulations don't exist to be fair to banks, nor to allow them to do business naturally, they exist to keep banks from nuking the economy every twenty years.

I have the distinct feeling that currently they are doing exactly this.

Over here in America they certainly are. From a certain perspective we can even blame the current mess on Clinton, because he actually reduced US regulations (specifically, some that dated to the Great Depression).

It´s worse here in Europe. Just look how Adolf Merkel and the banksters rob out everyone. Look how they clobber the greek. I´m really ashamed of this thugs and this sick system.

I'm sure that within areas with poor access & low wind speeds something with the business plan of Cargolifter could work.

Not CL.
But a Zeppelin can be used to tow an unmotorized freightblimp or -balloon.

Other than the CL having less structural reinforcement (by virtual of being a semi-rigid instead of a rigid), I'm not really certain what the big difference was.

Lotsa details - aerodynamics be the first.
Gah, the whole concept was crap.

Why tow, though? Do Zeppelins not have the needed lifting capacity?

Think about the whole process, especially loading and unloading. A Zeppelin is expensive, and dawdling around while lifting gas and freight are being transferred costs money. For comparable reasons the semi-trailer trucks were invented.
More important, it is dangerous, because the lifting body has to be rigged in the middle (or exactly above the freight-COG) in that process, and a rigid airship doesn´t respond to that very well, especially in windy circumstances (In fact it doesn´t even work well in still air).
A balloon is way easier to handle. You can even just blow off the gas (depends on the price though, it´ll be better hydrogen) and fold the ballon on-site for re-use.
And even if there´s a mishap while handling, it´s only the balloon, not the expensive Zep.

The hydrogen was surely burning (I can't imagine how it wouldn't be) but the flames captured in the photos were apparently the color of burning aluminum

Hydrogen burns way faster than aluminium, i think it´s the gas igniting the hull.

Guess someone better start working out how to build a Zeppelin based on vacuum bags, instead of helium gas bags.

I´m pretty sure it´s easier to develop anti-grav...

But Absalom, the Invisible Hand will make us all prosperous and rich if we just remove all the regulations! Why do you hate America?! Are you a Communist?!?!? BURN HIM!!!!!!!

Actually I love America, that's why I dislike the Invisible Hand, they're all Neo-Royalists .

More seriously, they tend to be either idiots who don't know about the actual economics (Ayn Rand fans!), or greedy. A rising tide does indeed lift all boats, but the boats are the upper class, which means that if the lower and middle class don't "rise", the upper class starts to lose money. Every time I hear someone support anarchism or libertarianism (or even financial deregulation) I wind up thinking "that idiot".

It is a relieve to see that obviously not all americans stopped thinking for themselves. Kudos!

[Absalom]

I have the distinct feeling that currently they are doing exactly this.

Over here in America they certainly are. From a certain perspective we can even blame the current mess on Clinton, because he actually reduced US regulations (specifically, some that dated to the Great Depression).

It´s worse here in Europe. Just look how Adolf Merkel and the banksters rob out everyone. Look how they clobber the greek. I´m really ashamed of this thugs and this sick system.

Oh, from a certain perspective they're right, it's just that it's a perspective that's doing to the Greeks what the French & British did to Germany at the end of WW1. Apparently Europe never changes.

Not CL.
But a Zeppelin can be used to tow an unmotorized freightblimp or -balloon.

Other than the CL having less structural reinforcement (by virtual of being a semi-rigid instead of a rigid), I'm not really certain what the big difference was.

Lotsa details - aerodynamics be the first.

Largely from the lack of nose and tail reinforcements, right?

Why tow, though? Do Zeppelins not have the needed lifting capacity?

Think about the whole process, especially loading and unloading. A Zeppelin is expensive, and dawdling around while lifting gas and freight are being transferred costs money. For comparable reasons the semi-trailer trucks were invented.
More important, it is dangerous, because the lifting body has to be rigged in the middle (or exactly above the freight-COG) in that process, and a rigid airship doesn´t respond to that very well, especially in windy circumstances (In fact it doesn´t even work well in still air).
A balloon is way easier to handle. You can even just blow off the gas (depends on the price though, it´ll be better hydrogen) and fold the ballon on-site for re-use.
And even if there´s a mishap while handling, it´s only the balloon, not the expensive Zep.

All good points, except that I would expect the actual rigging to consist of preparing the cargo-side lines first, grounding the Zeppelin when it arrives, and then quickly attaching the Zeppelin-side harness to the Cargo-side harness. So, speed shouldn't be of much concern (you did remember to stipulate that every minute that the sender requires to rig their cargo TO the Zeppelin is charged to them, right ? ), though I don't know that this would help much (if at all) with stability. And, of course, it would require semi-standardized tie points, which might get you stuck with a fixed size of airship if it's poorly thought out.

Yeah, I guess cheapo-blimps would make more sense for the actual carrying portion. And, for that matter, that would actually increase the cargo capacity of the zeppelin, in much the same way that barges (vastly) increase the carrying capacity of tugs.

The hydrogen was surely burning (I can't imagine how it wouldn't be) but the flames captured in the photos were apparently the color of burning aluminum

Hydrogen burns way faster than aluminium, i think it´s the gas igniting the hull.

The hydrogen wouldn't have been exposed to air, so unless the lightning blew out the skin without igniting it (which I find highly dubious), the hull caught fire first. Also worth noting is that another letter that they published was from someone who had flown cloth-skinned airplanes at some point after metal had become the norm. At one point, an instructor took a piece of cloth with roughly the same coating as the Hindenburg had, and dropped it onto their stove. The coating was sufficiently temperature-sensitive that it immediately burst into flames. Seriously, the Hindenburg was coated in "rocket" fuel, the hydrogen was just gasoline thrown onto an already-lit fire.

Guess someone better start working out how to build a Zeppelin based on vacuum bags, instead of helium gas bags.

I´m pretty sure it´s easier to develop anti-grav...

If we can get sufficient production of carbon nanotubes going then we'll have the structural portion of the vacuum bag ready, which will leave a sealant for the bag (which might not be needed, depending on how the structural portion is built), the internal tension members (to keep the bag from collapsing), cables to keep the tension members in the correct alignment (imagine a tank-trap made from three I-beams), and the cushioning that you stick onto the ends of the tension members to keep them from ripping the bag.

Whereas we can't yet confirm that anti-grav can work :p .

A vacuum-zeppelin would be (technologically, at least) easier than a true anti-grav device.

[Trantor]

Largely from the lack of nose and tail reinforcements, right?

And the general shape, especially under load.

All good points, except that I would expect the actual rigging to consist of preparing the cargo-side lines first, grounding the Zeppelin when it arrives, and then quickly attaching the Zeppelin-side harness to the Cargo-side harness.

Ah, i detect a fundamental misunderstanding: Zeppelins do not "fly", so they do not "land". Zeppelins sail, and they do this without so-called aerodynamic "weight". So you can´t just attach cargo without transferring gas.
And ballast is no solution, because where to get ballast from at the unloading site? When you can haul ballast, you can haul freight also. No need for a blimp then. This was also a fundamental flaw to the Cl.

And then: A Zeppelin is called "rigid" per definition, but in fact it isn´t.
No chance of simply attaching a huge weight to a point.
You have to distribute the weight over the better part of the whole length.
The CL would have "solved" this problem by it´s carbon-fiber backbone (which in reality doesn´t work, because there will never be autoclaves big/long enough to produce them; heck, detaaails!).

Yeah, I guess cheapo-blimps would make more sense for the actual carrying portion. And, for that matter, that would actually increase the cargo capacity of the zeppelin, in much the same way that barges (vastly) increase the carrying capacity of tugs.

Exactly. There are already commercial solutions for up to 75 metric tons of lift, and they´re used as cranes on very remote construction sites. With little modification they can be used as trailers.

Seriously, the Hindenburg was coated in "rocket" fuel, the hydrogen was just gasoline thrown onto an already-lit fire.

Yes, but it remains to be proved if/how far a fire on the skin would have damaged the lifting cells, if they were filled with helium.

If we can get sufficient production of carbon nanotubes going then we'll have the structural portion of the vacuum bag ready, which will leave a sealant for the bag (which might not be needed, depending on how the structural portion is built), the internal tension members (to keep the bag from collapsing), cables to keep the tension members in the correct alignment (imagine a tank-trap made from three I-beams), and the cushioning that you stick onto the ends of the tension members to keep them from ripping the bag.

Whereas we can't yet confirm that anti-grav can work :p .

A vacuum-zeppelin would be (technologically, at least) easier than a true anti-grav device.

You underestimate vacuum and pressure issues quite a little. Differential pressure is a strong power, i once saw a test, where they blew open a safe with only a few hundred millibar (!) internal pressure peak. So i´m pretty sure that nano-thingies won´t work because of too much structural weight.
Remember, a cubic metre of air is roughly only 1,1 kg of weight on sea level, and a cubic metre of helium has roughly only 1 kg of lift at the same level. If you ascend, this capability decreases quickly. That´s why it is even uneconomic to go above 2500ft.

[Absalom]

Largely from the lack of nose and tail reinforcements, right?

And the general shape, especially under load.

Ah, they would curve like a banana, got it.

All good points, except that I would expect the actual rigging to consist of preparing the cargo-side lines first, grounding the Zeppelin when it arrives, and then quickly attaching the Zeppelin-side harness to the Cargo-side harness.

Ah, i detect a fundamental misunderstanding: Zeppelins do not "fly", so they do not "land". Zeppelins sail, and they do this without so-called aerodynamic "weight". So you can´t just attach cargo without transferring gas.
And ballast is no solution, because where to get ballast from at the unloading site? When you can haul ballast, you can haul freight also. No need for a blimp then. This was also a fundamental flaw to the Cl.

Why would I suggest ballast, don't zeppelins normally have the capability to compress their lift gas while pumping normal atmosphere into additional gas cells contained inside the normal ones? I was certain that I'd seen a mention somewhere of at least some lighter-than-air craft using a system like this.

And then: A Zeppelin is called "rigid" per definition, but in fact it isn´t.
No chance of simply attaching a huge weight to a point.
You have to distribute the weight over the better part of the whole length.
The CL would have "solved" this problem by it´s carbon-fiber backbone (which in reality doesn´t work, because there will never be autoclaves big/long enough to produce them; heck, detaaails!).

I imagine that a "cargo spine" could be done, but I certainly wouldn't want to try to integrate it into the actual airship. Better to design it as an accessory that you connect to standardized mounting points, and then use to redistribute the weight of whatever you're moving. And, of course, the weight would count against the allocated weight, and the customer would be required to supply the spine.

If we can get sufficient production of carbon nanotubes going then we'll have the structural portion of the vacuum bag ready, which will leave a sealant for the bag (which might not be needed, depending on how the structural portion is built), the internal tension members (to keep the bag from collapsing), cables to keep the tension members in the correct alignment (imagine a tank-trap made from three I-beams), and the cushioning that you stick onto the ends of the tension members to keep them from ripping the bag.

Whereas we can't yet confirm that anti-grav can work :p .

A vacuum-zeppelin would be (technologically, at least) easier than a true anti-grav device.

You underestimate vacuum and pressure issues quite a little. Differential pressure is a strong power, i once saw a test, where they blew open a safe with only a few hundred millibar (!) internal pressure peak. So i´m pretty sure that nano-thingies won´t work because of too much structural weight.
Remember, a cubic metre of air is roughly only 1,1 kg of weight on sea level, and a cubic metre of helium has roughly only 1 kg of lift at the same level. If you ascend, this capability decreases quickly. That´s why it is even uneconomic to go above 2500ft.

I haven't done the math (I don't care enough to do it), but remember that I'm talking about the stuff that they're proposing to eventually build a space elevator out of. I've never heard if it's any good in compression, but it's apparently the best that we know of for tension. Mere iron or steel (or aluminum, or whatever else was used) is not nearly as strong as this stuff is. As I said, I haven't done the math for it, but if anything could stand the tension, then it would be carbon nano-tubes. Just not the current stuff, since the production stuff is apparently weaker than some of the stuff that they can make in labs.

Really, the carbon nanotubes aren't the weak point of that particular idea. The weak point is the internal bracing, which I didn't even bother to suggest a material for. As far as I know, we don't have anything that can tolerate compression nearly as well as the stuff that we have for tension.

I'm not certain that your point about the lifting capacity of helium is particularly relevant, since I was suggesting vacuum bags as a solution to the inevitable helium shortage, not as a way of achieving Space Zeppelins! We're expected to run out within the foreseeable future, because the US government started selling it too widely.

[Trantor]

Why would I suggest ballast, don't zeppelins normally have the capability to compress their lift gas while pumping normal atmosphere into additional gas cells contained inside the normal ones?

No, they pushed air in to expel the lift gas (the valves were on the belly for safety reasons). But only in the older models. Later they invented "Blaugas" for fuel, which had the same specific weight as air, and they experimented with exhaustgas-condensers to obtain ballastwater from the engine-exhaust. But they had massive corrosion issues with these.

I imagine that a "cargo spine" could be done

Nono, you´re missing the point: A "rigid" airship has to be flexible to a certain degree, a rigid spine would damage it.

and the customer would be required to supply the spine.

Nah, too complicated. PAY for such a thing, maybe, but not provide their own.
But since it doesn´t work that way anyway, there´s no point.
Nope, a balloon to tow is IMHO the only way to go.

I haven't done the math (I don't care enough to do it), but remember that I'm talking about the stuff that they're proposing to eventually build a space elevator out of.

Space elevators will never work, at least not here on earth, because only one hit from an orbiting satellite, and that thing is toast. 28000km/h = ~8000m/s, that´s 10x faster than 16" shells from a battleship. Do the math.

I'm not certain that your point about the lifting capacity of helium is particularly relevant, since I was suggesting vacuum bags as a solution to the inevitable helium shortage

Too much construction weight. That´s for. Even if there´s a vacuum, the whole construct will be waaay too heavy to even lift itself.

not as a way of achieving Space Zeppelins!

Couldn´t work anyway, since Zeps are limited to the lower atmosphere.

We're expected to run out within the foreseeable future, because the US government started selling it too widely.

That´s a shame.

[Absalom]

I imagine that a "cargo spine" could be done

Nono, you´re missing the point: A "rigid" airship has to be flexible to a certain degree, a rigid spine would damage it.

You're missing my meaning, the "cargo spine" would be for the cargo, not the zeppelin. It would only be connected to the zeppelin (or blimp, more likely) with cables. The only real point of it would be to redistribute the weight of the cargo more evenly. For that matter, it presumably wouldn't be a monolithic structure anyways, I assume that any such things would be designed as a series of beams, each hanging from either two points on the airship, or from the centers of two beams a "level" closer to the airship. Only the "final" beam would be, itself, rigid, and it (like the others) would probably be a truss instead of a monolithic beam.

Though even that is only one of any number of possible designs.

and the customer would be required to supply the spine.

Nah, too complicated. PAY for such a thing, maybe, but not provide their own.
But since it doesn´t work that way anyway, there´s no point.
Nope, a balloon to tow is IMHO the only way to go.

It would be applicable for blimps as well (though presumably not for balloons). And the customer "supplies" it because the cargo is attached to the spine, and the spine then cabled to the blimp. If the spine isn't already on-site and loaded with cargo when the zeppelin arrives, then it has to wait while the cargo is attached. The spine is the equivalent of a standard-size cargo container (though probably for out-size cargo), the lifting vehicle is the equivalent of a flatbed trailer.

Though this does assume a cargo that either requires alignment control, or is "support point dense" (such as a windmill tower held vertically).

I haven't done the math (I don't care enough to do it), but remember that I'm talking about the stuff that they're proposing to eventually build a space elevator out of.

Space elevators will never work, at least not here on earth, because only one hit from an orbiting satellite, and that thing is toast. 28000km/h = ~8000m/s, that´s 10x faster than 16" shells from a battleship. Do the math.

There's obviously some debate on that, since it's being worked on anyways (at least the last time I checked), but honestly, whether space elevators will work isn't relevant. I was pointing out that carbon nanotubes aren't the weak point in the proposal, the internal compression bracing is.

I'm not certain that your point about the lifting capacity of helium is particularly relevant, since I was suggesting vacuum bags as a solution to the inevitable helium shortage

Too much construction weight. That´s for. Even if there´s a vacuum, the whole construct will be waaay too heavy to even lift itself.

Are you saying that the force exerted on the skin will scale with the volume of the bag, rather than the surface area? I was under the impression that surface area was what mattered, implying that once a specific design exceeds the "break even" size, it obtains net lift. If my understanding of basic gas physics is wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

not as a way of achieving Space Zeppelins!

Couldn´t work anyway, since Zeps are limited to the lower atmosphere.

No problem, I thought it was unlikely that they'd have the hydrogen capacity to get through the upper atmosphere anyways.

We're expected to run out within the foreseeable future, because the US government started selling it too widely.

That´s a shame.

Hence the vacuum-bag idea.

[Trantor]

You're missing my meaning, the "cargo spine" would be for the cargo, not the zeppelin.

I got that, but it still doesn´t work. A Zeppelin despite it´s huge dimensions is a very fragile object, and it must be that fragile and flexible to react on winds, windshear, lift differences due to air pressure, sunlight, weather, or internal changes like burning fuel or even people wandering around.
It is a static system of it´s own, and a spine or what ever is totally different. Too many variables, cannot compute.

I assume that any such things would be designed as a series of beams, each hanging from either two points on the airship

You will still imply contractive force. It is pretty impossible to construct a "spine" that could serve as you think.
Sure, you can throw money at that problem, but the outcome would still be unsatisfactory, either in terms of complexity, or in cost, or in net lift, since the spine eats up payload.

A Zep is only able to haul bulk cargo which can be distributed over the whole ship.

Though even that is only one of any number of possible designs.

KISS-priciple. ---> Balloon.

Are you saying that the force exerted on the skin will scale with the volume of the bag, rather than the surface area?

No. But all the details make it fail. One bird pinching the surface - Kaboom. One faulty weld - Kaboom. One redneck firing upon it - Kaboom.
Zeps don´t have that problem. Even in WW1, when they were hit by multiple rounds they were able to maintain flight (except when they were hit with tracers). Since there´s no overpressure they bleeded gas only slowly, and so you just fixed that with stickers.
But with a difference of 1000mBar a hole always results in a catastrophic implosion.