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[Codius_Dak]

well i am rusty on outsider lore...

[dfacto]

Was thinking a bit about the "boarding action" hint from arioch. Perhaps the Loroi will board the Bell with Alex in tow to find the black box?

[TrashMan]

Maybe the Soia aren't really exisnct?
Maybe they are back?

[Ktrain]

The most humanity can do militarily is make themselves puff up like a blowfish and appear stronger than they actually are. Mankind might be able to make some prototypes field ready, but those advancements most likely won't make much difference in actual combat.

thats the way I see it too which is kind of the point i believe, Ariochas gone out of his wayto make man kind as a whole meaningless. it really the only way to make Alex important anyway so I don't mind really.

Humanity as a whole is meaningless because this story will be resolved before mankind can be brought into the fray. (Furthermore. they are a few hundred light years away from Alex to anything substantially now.)

Silly Question: Since I have met so many women who think men can read their minds, does this imply that human women have some sort of innate mind reading ability? If so, have men evolved a resistance to this mind reading in order to protect ourselves/delay ourselves from the inevitable getting yelled at? xP

[bunnyboy]

[fredgiblet]

Was thinking a bit about the "boarding action" hint from arioch. Perhaps the Loroi will board the Bell with Alex in tow to find the black box?

Not likely, it's not nearly important enough to be worth the risk while the Umiak are nearby and chances are very good that they already have it if it wasn't destroyed.

[Some Useless Geek]

To stretch the analogy given earlier a little bit more (perhaps close to the breaking point), if the Historians are the Vorlons then perhaps those who struck the Bellarmine are Shadows? I really, really hope that Arioch hasn't "borrowed" a plotline from previous art. That would be a shame.

As for Terran technology level, military preparedness, and productivity: think of what happened here during WWII. In 1939 the world's top Air Force was Italy. In 1945 the best aircraft from the Italian period wasn't even up to the standards of a trainer plane in the USA. Germany had a production jet fighter that could go 540 MPH. The USA had a long range fighter/bomber that could offer or decline combat to any other aircraft on the planet, including the far faster ME-262 (see history on P-51 vs ME-262 engagements like those of Chuckles Yeager). Everybody had radar, automated message encoding, and long range radio comm. Germany had rocket powered weapons that could strike GB from France. The USA released two atomic weapons against ground targets.

All of this in six years.

If you were a military planner in 1939 reading a newspaper headline from 1945 you'd think it was some fanciful writing from H. G. Wells or some such. The level of military technology skyrocketed (sorry, no pun intended) during the war. War material production in the USA was so high that at the end of WWII the USA had the capacity to take on the entire rest of the planet combined and win. (Fortunately, that didn't happen.)

I kinda think that if humanity were backed into a corner and forced to fight for its life then the entirety of mankind would switch to a war footing and produce like crazy. Any captured alien technology would be reverse engineered, improved, simplified, miniaturized, and stuffed down the throat of our alien enemies. Think about what happened in the years immediately after WWII: jet aircraft engines, V2 rockets, atomic energy/bombs. Give us an inch and we'll take the galaxy, you alien scum.

[dfacto]

As for Terran technology level, military preparedness, and productivity: think of what happened here during WWII. In 1939 the world's top Air Force was Italy. In 1945 the best aircraft from the Italian period wasn't even up to the standards of a trainer plane in the USA. Germany had a production jet fighter that could go 540 MPH. The USA had a long range fighter/bomber that could offer or decline combat to any other aircraft on the planet, including the far faster ME-262 (see history on P-51 vs ME-262 engagements like those of Chuckles Yeager). Everybody had radar, automated message encoding, and long range radio comm. Germany had rocket powered weapons that could strike GB from France. The USA released two atomic weapons against ground targets.

Yes, but it doesn't apply straight to Outsider. The tech to make a jet really isn't that different from that to make a turboprop plane, and isn't that complex. You need the machines necessary to create the fans and engine housing, the rest already exists from your previous production lines. Additionally a jet is small, and pumping them out is no big problem.

Starships are huge, far more complex, and Terrans would need completely new drive, weapon, and armor tech to compete with the Loroi and Umiak which means entire new production lines. And all of this on a massive scale (Loroi/Umiak can field dozens of ship in backwater skirmishes)

They won't be doing anything in 6 years.

[anticarrot]

If the terran military is anything like our military, they'll probably have plans for 15g, 20g, and 25g torpedeos (at various states of readiness) gathering dust in the archives. For the same reason most NATO torpedeos today manage 40-60kt - instead of the 200kt the russian supercav torpedeos can manage. Or a similar comparison between a 747 and Concorde. If it isn't needed, and would cost a lot, it's put aside for later.

Later just arrived.

Alex is unlikely to know of the true cutting edge capability of human technology, because that's a broad subject and the people who taught him would have had political/doctarine biasis that they were taught. In the sense that just before WWII, 'everyone knew' that tanks had limited use in warfare - except for the germans and a few other people, which the allied establishments refused to listen to. Or today 'everyone knows' that space travel is horribly difficult and complex, even though the math says otherwise beyond the first itteration, as do countless engineering studies, and as SpaceX is starting to show. It'll be a question of how flexible and innovative Earth is willing to be.

It's also worth pointing out that Earth will have parity with the Loroi and Umiak in some areas. Computing springs to mind. Moores Law does have some hard upper limits after all, and the human race will almost certainly have reached them long before 2160.


On another subject completely though... The Bellermine is only 2 months and about 20 jumps away from the front lines. If the Urgus coudl get to human space (on a ship with presumably with very limited resources) why has no one else ever made that trip? <cough> Or rather no one in recent history. </cough> Are the other races really that incurious? Or are safe jump zones/vectors (in that direction maybe) really that hard to find? Or has some mysterious third party been playing silly buggers?

[icekatze]

hi hi

There's a difference between building something within your tech level that you previously had no need for, and building something outside of your tech level. For example, right now, we desperately need a long lasting alternative energy source that is at least on par with gasoline, but in spite of much gnashing of teeth, none is forthcoming. Another example is lasers, the materials and manufacturing precision necessary to make simple lasers was around for a long time before they were actually produced, mainly because there was no need to build one.

[fredgiblet]

If the terran military is anything like our military, they'll probably have plans for 15g, 20g, and 25g torpedeos (at various states of readiness) gathering dust in the archives. For the same reason most NATO torpedeos today manage 40-60kt - instead of the 200kt the russian supercav torpedeos can manage. Or a similar comparison between a 747 and Concorde. If it isn't needed, and would cost a lot, it's put aside for later.

The reason that NATO torpedoes top out a 60 knots while the supercav torpedoes top out at 200 is pretty simple, NATO doesn't have a need for carrier-killer, semi-guided, short-range, nuclear torpedoes. In order to get that speed you are giving up a lot, and likely requiring more money.

The Humans in Outsider most likely don't have designs for those torpedoes you are talking about, such designs will likely require more powerful engines that the humans are capable of building. Additionally, even if they have the designs they won't have the production facilities prepared, and getting production rolling will take time.

It's also worth pointing out that Earth will have parity with the Loroi and Umiak in some areas. Computing springs to mind. Moores Law does have some hard upper limits after all, and the human race will almost certainly have reached them long before 2160.

Moore's Law is not the only component of processor speed. Though I don't necessarily disagree with you, compared to the Loroi we are practically Otaku so our general purpose computing abilities are likely to be better than average for our general tech level, though our dedicated purpose computing devices will likely be behind theirs.

On another subject completely though... The Bellermine is only 2 months and about 20 jumps away from the front lines. If the Urgus coudl get to human space (on a ship with presumably with very limited resources) why has no one else ever made that trip? <cough> Or rather no one in recent history. </cough> Are the other races really that incurious? Or are safe jump zones/vectors (in that direction maybe) really that hard to find? Or has some mysterious third party been playing silly buggers?

The Orgus were desperate and willing to take the risk of dying to escape the Umiak. Other species WOULD have reached us eventually (IIRC 4 years was the expected timeline) but the Orgus got there first because they skipped by a bunch of other systems that the Loroi/Umiak would have lingered in before moving on.

[Arioch]

To stretch the analogy given earlier a little bit more (perhaps close to the breaking point), if the Historians are the Vorlons then perhaps those who struck the Bellarmine are Shadows? I really, really hope that Arioch hasn't "borrowed" a plotline from previous art. That would be a shame.

All plotlines are "borrowed," but you are correct in that stretching that particular analogy so far breaks it. There is no race in Outsider to correspond to the Shadows.

The Shadows were awfully cool though, weren't they?

[anticarrot]

There's a difference between building something within your tech level that you previously had no need for, and building something outside of your tech level.

This is true, but as I just said, most people don't actually know what their current or historic tech level is/was capable of.There's also something like a NIMBY factor, in that people don't like to admit they've underperformed because it makes them look bad.

For example, right now, we desperately need a long lasting alternative energy source that is at least on par with gasoline, but in spite of much gnashing of teeth, none is forthcoming.

One of those 'everyone knows' fallacies I was talking about. In fact such sollutions are available, but *anything* that could replace 50-90% of the powerplants in any given nation is going to cost more than a single year's GDP - and thus is 'impossible'. Which is why we only ever hear about wind energy, small scale solar, 60s era nuclear energy, etc. They can't do the job, but they're cheap, so they are the solutions that actually get built, and the ones that the news services actually report on.

Technology that could supply baseload electricity in the next few decades, and could have done it today it had actually been funded:
Space Solar Power. LFTR thorium reactors. Various flavours of fusion. Pebblebed. Saltiers ducks. Ocean current.

Technology that could drastically reduce petrol usage to managable levels on a national basis:
Free piston engines. Six stroke crowler cycle. Strong hybrids. Plug in hybrids. Quickfit batteries. Generator trailers for electric cars. Electric drive trains. Self driving taxi-cars for urban areas. European vehicle design. Cheap lightweight chassis technology.

Replacing petrol and diesel completely is a little trickier. Theoretically graphine flywheels could do it, but that's a very hard material to manufacture in any useful amounts. I remember an online video about high temperature methane fuel cells, but haven't been able to find it since.

If you want to talk about this further, I'd be happy to, but it might be best to start a new topic for it.

[Grayhome]

The Shadows made for interesting villains (vessel designs were exceptionally insidious) but the plot that an insanely advanced civilization has nothing more important or productive to do than toy with lesser civilizations never really made sense to me. You would think they'd be off forging whole star systems with their vaunted power, not playing at being a god with the younger races.

[Mjolnir]

On another subject completely though... The Bellermine is only 2 months and about 20 jumps away from the front lines. If the Urgus coudl get to human space (on a ship with presumably with very limited resources) why has no one else ever made that trip? <cough> Or rather no one in recent history. </cough> Are the other races really that incurious? Or are safe jump zones/vectors (in that direction maybe) really that hard to find? Or has some mysterious third party been playing silly buggers?

Keep in mind that this was a major expedition that involved a group of several very-expensive ships including 4 out of the 6 long range scout ships in the Scout Corps, and had the potential for losing all of them by stranding them without supply if something went wrong with the supply ship. And there's quite a lot of systems to explore within 20 jumps of Terran space. It wouldn't have been long, but it's not that surprising that nobody had been out that far in that direction yet, or that others like the Orgus hadn't yet stumbled across us. Civilizations like the Historians, on the other hand...

[anticarrot]

If it isn't needed, and would cost a lot, it's put aside for later.

The reason that NATO torpedoes top out a 60 knots while the supercav torpedoes top out at 200 is pretty simple, NATO doesn't have a need for carrier-killer, semi-guided, short-range, nuclear torpedoes.

That is exactly what I just said.

Additionally, even if they have the designs they won't have the production facilities prepared, and getting production rolling will take time.

Um... This is where we get into more complicated and possible cat girl killing territory. Airbus has recently announced that they are going to try and make an entire commercial aircraft wing on a titanium based 3D printer. Unless the humans *never* develop this kind of manufacturing ability (which is a little far fetched) then you might be grossly underestimating their ability to adapt existing production lines. If indeed, a concept like production line even has any meaning for them any more.

Moore's Law is not the only component of processor speed.

True enough. But component density is an important compotent. But once you get to 5nm and 3D circuit design you can (probably) put a functional human mind in a CPU the size of a sugar cube. You're right though, in that the Loroi have encountered control problems we haven't, and will have better programme there. NB: The historians have AIs. (Assuming the Historians aren't AIs!) Do humans?

The Orgus were desperate and willing to take the risk of dying to escape the Umiak. Other species WOULD have reached us eventually (IIRC 4 years was the expected timeline) but the Orgus got there first because they skipped by a bunch of other systems that the Loroi/Umiak would have lingered in before moving on.

A remarkable coincidence, as Tempo might say. (And may well say, when she fnds out how 'close' Earth is to their space.) I have a little trouble crediting a single ship getting further than any mapping ship has ever gone before. Especially when they've had decades to do the mapping. But that might just be me killing cat girls again.

Incidentally, was there anything special about the Orgus ship? Given that it's the one piece of alien technology humans have gotten their grubby little fingers on. Did it have anything like a copy of wikipedia or encarta?

[Arioch]

A volume of space 200 light years across contains a lot of star systems to explore.

Incidentally, was there anything special about the Orgus ship? Given that it's the one piece of alien technology humans have gotten their grubby little fingers on. Did it have anything like a copy of wikipedia or encarta?

The Orgus vessel had a superior navigational database, which is what we must presume allowed the consideration of this mission (or allowed the Orgus vessel to reach human space in the first place). The Orgus were kind of like a Silk Road trade oasis, with the knowledge of ancient paths unknown to most of the local races. Which was part of the reason that the Umiak felt the Orgus should be safely a part of the Hierarchy.

[fredgiblet]

...

Were they following such a path when they came across us?

[Trantor]

Moore's Law is not the only component of processor speed.

True enough. But component density is an important compotent. But once you get to 5nm and 3D circuit design you can (probably) put a functional human mind in a CPU the size of a sugar cube. You're right though, in that the Loroi have encountered control problems we haven't, and will have better programme there. NB: The historians have AIs. (Assuming the Historians aren't AIs!) Do humans?

Aside from new energysources/powerplants that´s the most important goal: Vastly increase computing power. Leave silicon-based structures, leave binary system. There´s a whole new world beyond, i´m sure.

Incidentally, was there anything special about the Orgus ship? Given that it's the one piece of alien technology humans have gotten their grubby little fingers on. Did it have anything like a copy of wikipedia or encarta?

Yup. I´d like to learn more about the Orgus, too. At least roughly about their tech and history, not to slow down the main story...

[Trantor]

A volume of space 200 light years across contains a lot of star systems to explore.

Hm. Comes to my mind right now: We fired a lot of nukes ~220 years before todays storyline?
I mean, radio transmissions and seti stuff aside, wouldn´t a nuclear explosion have been registered 20 years ago?