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[Arioch]

Were they following such a path when they came across us?

I don't think there's any other way to plausibly explain how a shipload of refugees got here.

Comes to my mind right now: We fired a lot of nukes ~220 years before todays storyline? I mean, radio transmissions and seti stuff aside, wouldn´t a nuclear explosion have been registered 20 years ago?

The Sun is a continuous fusion explosion on a massive scale... I rather doubt you would be able to distinguish artifical nuclear explosions from those of the primary from 200 light years away.

[dex drako]

A volume of space 200 light years across contains a lot of star systems to explore.

Hm. Comes to my mind right now: We fired a lot of nukes ~220 years before todays storyline?
I mean, radio transmissions and seti stuff aside, wouldn´t a nuclear explosion have been registered 20 years ago?

every nuclear explosion together isn't even a fraction of the power output of a small solar flar. plus the the earth itself would block the blast from veiw for most of deep space. you would really have to be looking hard for it and even then be in the right plase at the right time.

[bunnyboy]

Most of the 'new inventions' of WW2 wasn't so new. Atomic bomb was invented 1934, while foundations for it was made 1905. The actual work for to build one started 1939 and it get ready on 1945.

For high speed torpedos, I could build one with 30g or more acceleration. But it just wouldn't work more than part of second and I could lose some bodyparts, so I don't do it.

Keith Curtis says in Software Wars (it's free) pg.53:

Imagine 1,000 people, broken up into groups of five, working on two hundred separate encyclopedias, versus that same number of people working on one encyclopedia? Which one will be the best? This sounds like a silly analogy when described in the context of an encyclopedia, but it is exactly what is going on in artificial intelligence (AI) research today.

As the ant and human use same operating system, the AI could have build years ago, if it was made in opensource.

And for our neighbours. I think, after the threshold, the start of exploration is always fast, but when you get couple of habitable planets, expedition is on ice until you get them independent and slow after that. It is like australia, nobody wanted it on 200 years, because there were more important things to do. Orgus contacted us because they hadn't other choice. Otherwise they had jumped on to next system, using us as buffer and forgot us.

[Razor One]

A volume of space 200 light years across contains a lot of star systems to explore.

Hm. Comes to my mind right now: We fired a lot of nukes ~220 years before todays storyline?
I mean, radio transmissions and seti stuff aside, wouldn´t a nuclear explosion have been registered 20 years ago?

No. Electromagnetic signatures, such as the light and gamma ray burst from a nuke popping off, diminish in a spherical nature by a factor of 1 divided by the radius of the distance squared. From a distance of 200 LY it would be like spotting a needle in a haystack the size of... Belgium. From Pluto. Using just your eyes. While they're closed. Through a mile of steel.

Okay, perhaps I pushed that a bit. Half a mile of steel.

Local interference alone would render detection via nukes popping off completely useless, unless there were some unknown property not limited by the speed of light nor rendered effectively washed out by background radiation sources. Given the 'verses canon, I doubt such detection methods exist.

As for me, I'm cautiously optimistic that humans will eventually make a difference... eventually. Perhaps not in the early or even the middling stages of the story, but towards the end we might just get our big damn heroes moment.

Six thousand years, ten thousand wars, one hundred thousand battles, one hundred million heroes.
— A succinct summary of Human history

[dex drako]

As for me, I'm cautiously optimistic that humans will eventually make a difference... eventually. Perhaps not in the early or even the middling stages of the story, but towards the end we might just get our big damn heroes moment.

we already have our human hero and his name is Alex the main character of the story, but that's the problem the story is about Alex not the human race as a whole.

[Ktrain]

A volume of space 200 light years across contains a lot of star systems to explore.

Hm. Comes to my mind right now: We fired a lot of nukes ~220 years before todays storyline?
I mean, radio transmissions and seti stuff aside, wouldn´t a nuclear explosion have been registered 20 years ago?

every nuclear explosion together isn't even a fraction of the power output of a small solar flar. plus the the earth itself would block the blast from veiw for most of deep space. you would really have to be looking hard for it and even then be in the right plase at the right time.

Question? How would the Umiak or Loroi react to the fact that humanity has detonated over 2000 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons on our planet during a fifty year time span? (Over one half of those were done by America and around 40% by the USSR). How did the Loroi and Umiak deal with their own nuclear ages?

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Question? How would the Umiak or Loroi react to the fact that humanity has detonated over 2000 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons on our planet during a fifty year time span? (Over one half of those were done by America and around 40% by the USSR). How did the Loroi and Umiak deal with their own nuclear ages?

Probably only marginal interest, considering that this series of events transpired centuries ago. Only xenophiles like Beryl would probably be particularly interested in figuring out exactly how many nukes humanity tested.

[Arioch]

How would the Umiak or Loroi react to the fact that humanity has detonated over 2000 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons on our planet during a fifty year time span? (Over one half of those were done by America and around 40% by the USSR). How did the Loroi and Umiak deal with their own nuclear ages?

Since only two of those weapons were used in anger against live targets, and the rest were detonated for purposes of research and mutual deterrence, I think if anything the Loroi and Umiak would be impressed (or disappointed, as the case may be) at our reluctance to use such weapons more often than we did.

The Loroi fought each other constantly for pretty much their entire history, and these conflicts were often very bloody (Stalin or Genghis Khan would blanch at the body counts racked up by some of the most infamous Loroi warlords), but they were "limited" in the sense that warfare was considered normal, and technological advances were very slow to find application on the battlefield. The dominance of psionic Loroi in warfare led to view that innovative technologies such as archery or early firearms were cheap civilian tricks that were ineffective against "real" warriors. Well into their industrial age, Loroi wars were still being fought by ranked infantry armed with melee weapons. By the time the Loroi had entered their space age and began to consider the implications of nuclear power, they had rediscovered their legacy of lost starflight and became more interested in fighting aliens instead. The Loroi never used nuclear weapons against their own people, though they have since used much more terrible weapons against entire alien species.

The ancestors of the Umiak fought a millennia-long global war against their more advanced Tizik-tik relatives in which (allegedly) weapons of mass destruction of every conceivable nature were used early and often. This age of warfare ended (again, allegedly) in the near-total destruction of the Umiak homeworld, the genocide of the Tizik-tik, and self-transformation of the Hal-tik Umiak.

[Cdr Straker]

Question? How would the Umiak or Loroi react to the fact that humanity has detonated over 2000 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons on our planet during a fifty year time span? (Over one half of those were done by America and around 40% by the USSR). How did the Loroi and Umiak deal with their own nuclear ages?

Probably only marginal interest, considering that this series of events transpired centuries ago. Only xenophiles like Beryl would probably be particularly interested in figuring out exactly how many nukes humanity tested.

And since both are warrior races, I'd guess they could see the absolute logic in testing a new technology and improvements to the concept. Considering that both of these adversaries have wiped out worlds and laid waste to solar systems in their war of annihilation, I really don't think they're going to be sympathetic to the UoCS position on nuke tests, if that's what's implied here.

Edit: Beaten to the punch by Arioch! Well played, Sir....

[Voitan]

Aside from new energysources/powerplants that´s the most important goal: Vastly increase computing power. Leave silicon-based structures, leave binary system. There´s a whole new world beyond, i´m sure.

I think it's predicted that computing power will surpass the human brain within our lifetimes and soon after true AI.

Followed closely by the machine uprising.

[Cdr Straker]

Aside from new energysources/powerplants that´s the most important goal: Vastly increase computing power. Leave silicon-based structures, leave binary system. There´s a whole new world beyond, i´m sure.

I think it's predicted that computing power will surpass the human brain within our lifetimes and soon after true AI.

Followed closely by the machine uprising.

...Neeever gonna happen....... before then, scientists will have injected primates with serum that makes them super-intelligent. Practice saying: "Get your hands off of me, you damned, dirty ape!"

[Ktrain]

Thanks for the answers, they reaffirmed some of the suspicions I had about each peoples' histories of warfare. Though I like to believe that if either species learned that humanity had detonated huge numbers of nuclear weapons as both a "pissing contest" and an act of territorialism that they would view us like we are stupid.

@Cdr Straker, while both are war-like races, I would not label both races as warriors due to differences in cultural values. Loroi "eristues" are more in line with traditional (I use Shogunate Japan as an archetype) warrior virtues such as martial prowess and downplay civilian (more economic) achievements, while Umiak virtues (what is Latin for no gender... ) value industriousness and efficiency rather than individual fighting performance (which, contrary to their humility, would raise the status of the individual above the rest of the population).

In our own recent history, the most successful war like peoples have had both industrial and commercial cultures.

[GOULimitingFactor]

The Loroi never used nuclear weapons against their own people, though they have since used much more terrible weapons against entire alien species.

The ancestors of the Umiak fought a millennia-long global war against their more advanced Tizik-tik relatives in which (allegedly) weapons of mass destruction of every conceivable nature were used early and often.

I notice you don't say anything about humanity between now and 2160 :).

One wonders, though. Does the propensity to escalate force (both to force at all and to appalling levels) quickly represent a weakness, or a strength? War is, after all, about controlling violence to achieve long-term goals, and while there's some value in being seen as dangerous, it also imposes some strategic limitations - like concern from allies that they might be next.

[Voitan]

Aside from new energysources/powerplants that´s the most important goal: Vastly increase computing power. Leave silicon-based structures, leave binary system. There´s a whole new world beyond, i´m sure.

I think it's predicted that computing power will surpass the human brain within our lifetimes and soon after true AI.

Followed closely by the machine uprising.

...Neeever gonna happen....... before then, scientists will have injected primates with serum that makes them super-intelligent. Practice saying: "Get your hands off of me, you damned, dirty ape!"

Yikes! Much closer than I imagined.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCWGf3CxvRc

[Cdr Straker]

Thanks for the answers, they reaffirmed some of the suspicions I had about each peoples' histories of warfare. Though I like to believe that if either species learned that humanity had detonated huge numbers of nuclear weapons as both a "pissing contest" and an act of territorialism that they would view us like we are stupid.

That's why inter-cultural relations often fail- assuming the other side shares your values and morals ("I'm sure we can settle this if we just talk it out...") leads to misunderstandings and, sometimes, needless violence ("Ha! they want to talk..... They aren't as tough as we thought. Attack!!!)*

@Cdr Straker, while both are war-like races, I would not label both races as warriors due to differences in cultural values. Loroi "eristues" are more in line with traditional (I use Shogunate Japan as an archetype) warrior virtues such as martial prowess and downplay civilian (more economic) achievements, while Umiak virtues (what is Latin for no gender... ) value industriousness and efficiency rather than individual fighting performance (which, contrary to their humility, would raise the status of the individual above the rest of the population).

In our own recent history, the most successful war like peoples have had both industrial and commercial cultures.

Yes, I misused "warrior culture" here. Whatever values, traditions, customs and personalities they have, the fact is that they are both trying to "create the greatest amount of wounds, death and destruction in the least amount of time."- The one tactical principle that is not subject to change- George S. Patton

*No diplomats were harmed in the making of this post.

[Ktrain]

Ya, I'm just playing semantic games anyways

Also, I just tend to enjoy viewing humanity as both genius/idiotic at the same time. We kind of stumbled into space; we kind of went looking for aliens; we kind of got our ship blown up; we kind of have some guy trying to negotiate the best interests of the species, but he tends to sing David Bowie...

[Nemo]

Thanks for the answers, they reaffirmed some of the suspicions I had about each peoples' histories of warfare. Though I like to believe that if either species learned that humanity had detonated huge numbers of nuclear weapons as both a "pissing contest" and an act of territorialism that they would view us like we are stupid.

I would think not. The US had the bomb all by itself and the most powerful wartime economy in the world at the end of WW2. We could have dominated the world, or blown anyone who would not bend the knee into non existence, literally without resistance. We did not. I think both the Loroi and Umiak would view that as foolishness, especially given the events of the following century. Its not in the West's nature to do such a thing owing to its religious Protestant/classic liberal nature, but has been and is the predominate method of establishing order throughout history, even to this day in other parts of the world.

[icekatze]

hi hi

The US had the bomb all by itself and the most powerful wartime economy in the world at the end of WW2. We could have dominated the world, or blown anyone who would not bend the knee into non existence, literally without resistance.

I'm not so sure about that statement. see: Soviet Union.

[Ktrain]

I would think not. The US had the bomb all by itself and the most powerful wartime economy in the world at the end of WW2. We could have dominated the world, or blown anyone who would not bend the knee into non existence, literally without resistance. We did not. I think both the Loroi and Umiak would view that as foolishness, especially given the events of the following century. Its not in the West's nature to do such a thing owing to its religious Protestant/classic liberal nature, but has been and is the predominate method of establishing order throughout history, even to this day in other parts of the world.

Actually, we had limited bomb making capabilities from 45-49. After Nagasaki, it would have taken the U.S. months to produce enough fissile material to build another A-Bomb (Truman bluffed for a Japanese surrender) and the Soviets were poised to take over Western Europe at U.S. provocation. Furthermore, the delivery systems the U.S. were primarily bombers which would still have to contend with enemy air forces to deliver their payloads. There are many practical explanations for why the U.S. did not use the bomb to dominate the world, namely logistical and strategic limitations of the weapon.

Also you are assuming the Umiak do not regret (allegedly) decimating their homeworld with such (alleged) weapons of mass destruction. (I really think they just spread rumors about themselves as a means of protecting/isolating their culture from outsiders.) The Loroi never used nuclear weapons against each other and preferred "honorable" warrior combat. They might see the use of such weapons to achieving political hegemony as cowardly or nuclear genocide against one's own race as counterproductive.

[Nemo]

hi hi

The US had the bomb all by itself and the most powerful wartime economy in the world at the end of WW2. We could have dominated the world, or blown anyone who would not bend the knee into non existence, literally without resistance.

I'm not so sure about that statement. see: Soviet Union.

Im dead certain about that statement. see:[url=jttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h931W1446uk]Operantion: Sandstone[/url]

Conventionally speaking, the Soviets geared up over the course of the war and managed to fight Germany back on a single front while Germany was occupied on three. Russia was so adverse to opening a second front that they held a non-aggression pact with Japan from April of '41 until two days after Hiroshima. The US, by comparison, managed to supply the Soviets and the British with material while gearing itself up for war in two theaters halfway across the world.

In '48, one year before the USSR would test their first nuke, we had 50 bombs. What answer could the Soviets give had the Americans only the will to use them? None. They chose not to. They used the threat of their power coupled with a demonstrated willingness to use it to make aggression unthinkable. They could have sought to impose order by use of force, but did not. Because it was not their way. Instead, they risked themselves and an entire world to utter ruin when the inevitable happened, and the Soviets caught up. I hold the Loroi and Umiak would view such idealism as reckless. Their takeaway wouldn't be focused on the insanity of the Cold War, but the madness that it could have been avoided.

Yes, even the Umiak. Whatever regret they have (allegedly) about devastating their homeworld would be reflected in the near total destruction of the Cold War. Consider, destroy half or risk all? Be cold. Be calculating.