Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[kclcmdr]

Is the Systems, Timeless City and godless One,

that is between the Historians and the Lorei Union's presumed Neutral Zone once part of the Historians' control?

[Arioch]

Is the Systems, Timeless City and godless One,

that is between the Historians and the Lorei Union's presumed Neutral Zone once part of the Historians' control?

They're uninhabited systems.

[Game Theory]

Considering that the internet evolved from the need for the quick transmission of text based messaging, did any analogues in Loroi <and umaki barsam and nerdi> culture evolve. Specifically with the Loroi, was their first use of the internet privatized like telegraph was for humans, this is assuming most Loroi don't bother to learn trade; and did Loroi have any telegraph equivalent of using binary to spell trade letters out through power lines. And as for their internet, did it ever gain mass use like our internet has,or is it mostly used by the government and military, acting a medium for communication in many cases of public and business life, but lacking the public involvement and appeal the internet has for humans. A forced analogy could be made of how we neglect the water pipes that make up a significant portion of our infrastructure, but aliens who used their water transport system for daily travel as well as drinking would be more aware of it.

[dragoongfa]

From my understanding, a lot of what we do with technology the Loroi do with Telepathy and their society was shaped around it.

The Loroi are a heavily militarized society and due to their telepathy their rumor mill is extremely accurate and only limited by the amount of people who are within the rumor mill itself. Having technological means to reach every Loroi on the planet would be a huge handicap for their military secrecy, especially if a lot of their 'internet' was accessed by marginalized and disenfranchised civilian castes.

My guess is that the Loroi have numerous 'networks' akin to the Internet for long range, inner caste/guild communications; for short ranges however their telepathy is more than adequate for every day stuff.

Then there is the undoubted rivalry between the various castes to consider.

[Arioch]

To elaborate on what dragoongfa said:

The practical technological benefits to telegraph, telephone, and networked computers will, I think, be similar for most civilizations. The cultural impact of these changes, though, may differ according to the society in question. Telegraph and telephone have strong infrastructure benefits for any civilization, but for a non-vocal and barely-literate telepathic society, telephone did not become widely adopted by the general Loroi public the way it did for us. Loroi society remains mostly local and insular, and long-distance contact (within a planet) is still mostly done through an indirect network telepathic communication -- the telepathic rumor mill. Similarly, networked computers are an undeniable technical benefit, but the social aspect of the internet was not embraced by the Loroi, who do not have a media culture. The networks exist and can by used by those interested, but it has not become a hub of entertainment and commerce for the Loroi.

Loroi don't need mobile phones or social media sites to keep in touch with their friends' activity -- they have telepathy. The range of individual telepathic connections is limited, but each person is a node in a telepathic network that can potentially cover a very wide area. Just as word of mouth and spoken rumor can transmit information over a wide area quickly, the telepathic rumor mill can do so farther, faster, and with greater accuracy. Telephony and computer networking was not seen as a novelty or a revolution to the Loroi.

The Barsam and Neridi have taken greater social advantage of communication networks, but they have also done so in ways that are specific to their individual cultures.

Another point about internetworks in Outsider is that the lack of faster-than-light communication means that each star system's network is effectively isolated from every other one. FTL Ships can bring regular updates of changes in the static elements of the network (the equivalent of websites and data repositories), and can deliver the equivalent of mail, but you can't have the ability to send messages real-time with someone in, say Alpha Centauri the way you can with someone in Mongolia.

[Suederwind]

A few more questions:
What would the Loroi think about the human approach to a computer network and its applications?
Are the Mizols monitoring that "rumor mill" or is there another cast doing that?

What kind of technologies did the Loroi use for their first interplanetary travels to Mezan? Something similar to our current technology or did they already found some Soia artifacts that helped them?

[Arioch]

What would the Loroi think about the human approach to a computer network and its applications?

The network itself would be very familiar, it's the popular media flowing through it that the Loroi would find unfamiliar.

And even that would not be shocking, as the Loroi have had exposure to numerous alien cultures.

Are the Mizols monitoring that "rumor mill" or is there another cast doing that?

Many different agencies monitor the telepathic network. They are part of it, to a certain degree.

What kind of technologies did the Loroi use for their first interplanetary travels to Mezan? Something similar to our current technology or did they already found some Soia artifacts that helped them?

The Loroi explored their own system very late compared to us; they were already at the cusp of TL9 at the time of the Mezan expedition, which was only 20 years before contact with Perrein and the start of their interstellar program. The ship that traveled to Mezan would have been large and fairly sophisticated.

Some of the ship's system designs were based on examples of Soia tech they found on Deinar and in orbit around Deinar's moons, but these weren't working examples.

[dragoongfa]

Just as a precaution.

Have you named the Tech caste you mentioned earlier?

[Arioch]

Have you named the Tech caste you mentioned earlier?

Yeah, it's the Gallen caste.

[Game Theory]

Another point about internetworks in Outsider is that the lack of faster-than-light communication means that each star system's network is effectively isolated from every other one. FTL Ships can bring regular updates of changes in the static elements of the network (the equivalent of websites and data repositories), and can deliver the equivalent of mail, but you can't have the ability to send messages real-time with someone in, say Alpha Centauri the way you can with someone in Mongolia.

I actually was going to bring this up, and I had a similar "pony express" way of overcoming the problem, but I've been thinking recently ...The internet is big, how many ships would you have to dedicate to take copies of it to multiple systems, and what sort of infrastructure would you need in order to accept and simulate the latest updates?

I am not terribly knowledgeable about computers so forgive me if I said something completely nonsensical, but it still seems to me that a single PC would not be able to accept any updates of the full internet, colony systems slightly smaller (than earth's) would have problems doing so, and a single ship would have even larger hurdles; I understand that future computing tech is going to improve, but any increase in memory capacity is sure to be followed by a similar increase in the use of the memory. I draw relations to the steady progression in the complexity of computing systems as computing power increases.


On an unrelated note, do all Loroi look like super models, or are we just seeing the physically fit warriors.

If they all do indeed look like supermodels, is this because of their Soia-Leron genetics (I would have to doubt this explanation as they were at the mercy of the ever utilitarian force of natural selection for over a hundred millennia, and it seems to me that a desire for "unhealthy" foods as well as very efficient energy storage systems, fat, would evolve in Loroi as well as humans. And this system should similarly breakdown in the abundance of society.)

Or would it perhaps be one of the perks of living in an advanced society with amazing medical technology.

On a final note how do you feel earth will handle the new competition, do the newcomers of the Loroi union stand a chance against it's usual extravagance under pressure, or will anxiety set in the face of new competition and finally topple it's legacy as the yet undefeated champion of the Miss Universe title.

[Arioch]

I actually was going to bring this up, and I had a similar "pony express" way of overcoming the problem, but I've been thinking recently ...The internet is big, how many ships would you have to dedicate to take copies of it to multiple systems, and what sort of infrastructure would you need in order to accept and simulate the latest updates?

I am not terribly knowledgeable about computers so forgive me if I said something completely nonsensical, but it still seems to me that a single PC would not be able to accept any updates of the full internet, colony systems slightly smaller (than earth's) would have problems doing so, and a single ship would have even larger hurdles; I understand that future computing tech is going to improve, but any increase in memory capacity is sure to be followed by a similar increase in the use of the memory. I draw relations to the steady progression in the complexity of computing systems as computing power increases.

My understanding of the matter is that it's not the size of the data on the internet that's unacceptably huge (estimates I have seen place it at 200 TB, which is within the storage capacity of a single machine even at current technology levels), but rather the bandwidth at which it is constantly accessed. With the current insane explosion of storage capacity, I think the failing point will continue to be communications bandwidth rather than storage capacity. So I think that any typical courier starship will be able to store and transport a full delta of changes for a given planetary internet within a reasonable period of time. So, probably, the issue is just how frequently your couriers or mail carriers run between systems.

On an unrelated note, do all Loroi look like super models, or are we just seeing the physically fit warriors.

If they all do indeed look like supermodels, is this because of their Soia-Leron genetics (I would have to doubt this explanation as they were at the mercy of the ever utilitarian force of natural selection for over a hundred millennia, and it seems to me that a desire for "unhealthy" foods as well as very efficient energy storage systems, fat, would evolve in Loroi as well as humans. And this system should similarly breakdown in the abundance of society.) Or would it perhaps be one of the perks of living in an advanced society with amazing medical technology.

The official answer is that all of the above are factors. The Loroi we see are the selected elite of physically fit, genetically tailored products of very high technology.

The unofficial answer is that I don't like drawing uggies.

On a final note how do you feel earth will handle the new competition, do the newcomers of the Loroi union stand a chance against it's usual extravagance under pressure, or will anxiety set in the face of new competition and finally topple it's legacy as the yet undefeated champion of the Miss Universe title.

Humanity of 2160 is also healthier and prettier than humanity of today, but that's not a subject on which I want to spend a lot of effort, since it's not relevant to the narrative.

That said, both the Loroi and now Humanity find themselves in a situation of fighting for the survival of their very species. I'm not sure that contests over which race is prettier are really at the forefront of either civilization's top concerns.

[Game Theory]

That said, both the Loroi and now Humanity find themselves in a situation of fighting for the survival of their very species. I'm not sure that contests over which race is prettier are really at the forefront of either civilization's top concerns.

The Miss Universe thing was a joke.

[Logannion]

Hmm, I did a quick search, and apparently this hasn't been asked, so I'll go post it here.

While the telepathic nature of Loroi means that non-telepathic forms of communication are seen as less colourful and more bland compared to humanity's view of the same communication mediums, does that mean that they will not be able to be both consciously and subconsciously swayed/influenced by them if they get over their disdain for it?

Like for example, writing for Humanity is definitely not the must "rich" form in communication. There are only written words that help detail the information the book is trying to get across. Despite that, many humans take the same enjoyment of reading a novel as they would if they watched television, which includes sounds and colour. The written word has had a huge impact on Humanity and has often been the precursor that ignites action through other modes of communication.

To put it simply, if the Loroi listen to an impassioned speech from a human commander or dignitary, would they still be able to appreciate and be sympathetic if they don't just brand all the words said as lies? Could they be swayed/affected by a 'crowd atmosphere' even though they cannot telepathically sense humans? (I.e, would it be more like me reading an excerpt of a speech and getting emotionally touched by it, or would it be more like watching a deaf man furiously gesture in hand language [Understood, but emotionally detached])

Also, would things like subliminal advertising work on them as well as it would on humans? (Generally, I know there'll be a variance, but I just want to know the overall race susceptibility to it compared to humanity)

[Arioch]

To put it simply, if the Loroi listen to an impassioned speech from a human commander or dignitary, would they still be able to appreciate and be sympathetic if they don't just brand all the words said as lies? Could they be swayed/affected by a 'crowd atmosphere' even though they cannot telepathically sense humans? (I.e, would it be more like me reading an excerpt of a speech and getting emotionally touched by it, or would it be more like watching a deaf man furiously gesture in hand language [Understood, but emotionally detached])

Speech is not something that Loroi normally use to persuade; it's strictly utilitarian. It's the kind of thing you hear coming over the speaker announcing the next train stop.

The content of a speech could move or sway a Loroi audience, but the qualities of a "good public speaker" would probably be lost on most of them. (Mizol would be an exception to this.)

Also, would things like subliminal advertising work on them as well as it would on humans? (Generally, I know there'll be a variance, but I just want to know the overall race susceptibility to it compared to humanity)

I'm not sure. The unfamiliarity of the Loroi with most media would probably make it less effective. Being able to process information subconsciously requires that you be thoroughly fluent in the medium, which most Loroi aren't with written and spoken communication.

I had a situation in which I worked in an office in which some of my co-workers in neighboring cubes spoke Russian. I can ignore chatter in languages I don't understand, and I can ignore English conversations (or, rather, I can simultaneously work and unconsciously process the English conversation, because I am fluent in English), but I had difficulty concentrating on my work while the Russian conversations were going on, because I understand enough Russian to be able to decipher some of it, but I am not fluent enough to process it unconsciously.

[Game Theory]

How did communication in loroi society evolve. We know they don't have a public internet, and that most of the population is not literate but they have telepathy to make up for it, so how did information in early Loroi society get distributed.

I know it would have probably been diffused quickly through a settlement, but in a totalitarian state would any Martin Lutherisqe figures have the privacy to form their ideas without the powers-that-be taking preemptive action, even killing off entire settlements whose members are unable to shut up about seditious political ideas. (Literally incapable, as Loroi can't lie)

And as for other information, things like government supported "pamphlet sized" bits of information could travel very quickly throughout even primitive settlements, but are "book sized" subject oriented pieces like evolution and the like relegated to being studied and kept by those with idetic memories and the literate?

Actually how does Loroi education work? Does every teacher have an idetic memory or does being a teacher require one to be literate?

I realize this sounds as if I believe that ancient Loroi government was run by an unchallenged monarchy, but I think that those in power, the lords, would constantly be liable to overthrow the emperor, as having passive knowledge of the mental state of your friends could be conducive to coordinating outbursts of emotion. Knowing that all your fellow lords also feel that Nero is acting a bit irrationally could speed up the assassination process, although how this would work with the peasantry, I have no idea.

[Game Theory]

My understanding of the matter is that it's not the size of the data on the internet that's unacceptably huge (estimates I have seen place it at 200 TB, which is within the storage capacity of a single machine even at current technology levels), but rather the bandwidth at which it is constantly accessed. With the current insane explosion of storage capacity, I think the failing point will continue to be communications bandwidth rather than storage capacity. So I think that any typical courier starship will be able to store and transport a full delta of changes for a given planetary internet within a reasonable period of time. So, probably, the issue is just how frequently your couriers or mail carriers run between systems.

I decided to look into this and read that 200 Terabytes was the size of the portion of the internet that google had indexed, the size of the internet is estimated to be seven million terabytes. Considering there are already laptops that can hold a terabyte of information, I would be more concerned about the download speeds. (I won't hound you on this particular topic though.)

[dragoongfa]

How did communication in loroi society evolve. We know they don't have a public internet, and that most of the population is not literate but they have telepathy to make up for it, so how did information in early Loroi society get distributed.

I know it would have probably been diffused quickly through a settlement, but in a totalitarian state would any Martin Lutherisqe figures have the privacy to form their ideas without the powers-that-be taking preemptive action, even killing off entire settlements whose members are unable to shut up about seditious political ideas. (Literally incapable, as Loroi can't lie)

That's where the castes come in I believe. Large groupings of people banding together for self preservation. Human caste systems are vastly different from the Loroi castes. Human castes always were about justified slavery but Loroi detest slavery so the reasoning behind the caste system is vastly different. Loroi castes will certainly contain people of a similar mentality but seditious thoughts are certainly probably tolerated from caste mates up to a degree and then there is the factor that attacking a member of a different caste certainly has a blowback from the rest of the victim's caste.

MLK is probably the 'best' progressive example that you could mention because to put it bluntly he wasn't crazy but let's mention some tainted examples like Malcolm X, Lenin, Nietzsche and most people behind the French revolution. I suspect that the Loroi would take care of everyone in the later category and even their MLK if their MLK was a she. If their MLK was a he and thus a taboo to harm he would be spared and listened to since as I said, MLK wasn't crazy, or as crazy as the rest of the bunch.

And as for other information, things like government supported "pamphlet sized" bits of information could travel very quickly throughout even primitive settlements, but are "book sized" subject oriented pieces like evolution and the like relegated to being studied and kept by those with idetic memories and the literate?

Considering that certain Loroi legends are kept only by Eidetic capable castes (male and female), then the most complicated info, which is also the kind of info that needs to be remembered precisely, will be kept by the Eidetics.

Actually how does Loroi education work? Does every teacher have an idetic memory or does being a teacher require one to be literate?

Considering how their society is arranged I think that the civilian teachers don't need to be literate and their warrior teachers need to be literate. The biggest problem with human teaching is not passing the knowledge but making sure that the student comprehends the knowledge itself. With telepathy you also pass the comprehension the instant as quickly as you pass the knowledge and as thus a lot of time is instantly saved.

EDIT: Correction after some thinking.

I wouldn't be surprised if Loroi to Loroi teaching of a subject could be finished in months when Human to Human it would take years.

I realize this sounds as if I believe that ancient Loroi government was run by an unchallenged monarchy, but I think that those in power, the lords, would constantly be liable to overthrow the emperor, as having passive knowledge of the mental state of your friends could be conducive to coordinating outbursts of emotion. Knowing that all your fellow lords also feel that Nero is acting a bit irrationally could speed up the assassination process, although how this would work with the peasantry, I have no idea.

Caste system. The highest castes are leadership warriors (Torrai), high castes are elites (Teidars and Mizols), mid castes are warriors (Soroin, Teroin), support castes are a little lower than mid but well respected because they are still warriors (Doranzer, Listel). Low to lowest are the various civilian castes and guilds. Males are conserved and are outside of this system.

Each caste has its own internal balance of power and each high caste makes sure that they are not superseded by a lower caste, lower castes make sure that high castes are under some self control and because the high castes are outnumbered they have to give some concessions. Supporting castes offer a needed niche so they are listened to and respected but sedition is certainly there since 'no true warriors'. All of the above make sure that the warriors are on top of the civvies. But that's how it is now.

Before the unification, take the above and just split it in the middle by adding national boundaries between the various national states where each state each has a different internal balance of power.

[Siber]

The biggest problem with human teaching is not passing the knowledge but making sure that the student comprehends the knowledge itself. With telepathy you also pass the comprehension the instant you pass the knowledge and as thus a lot of time is instantly saved.

I don't think that follows from what's been said about psi. It could certainly be true in some 'implementations' of telepathy, but it doesn't seem to be the case here, even for listels. Just because someone can regurgitate information perfectly doesn't mean they really understand it and can use it well.

[dragoongfa]

We have to ask for word of God for certainty.

In this case I think it is is true because telepathy and telepathic communication in the form of Sanzai doesn't revolve around words but around well constructed and 'grammatically' arranged thoughts.

It's true that a student may at first not understand the concept of something that is sent to her but if her teacher understands it (teachers have to comprehend the concepts they try to pass along) then she can mentally explain it to her student in far greater detail than we can imagine and even direct the student's thoughts in understanding the concept.

I don't see it as instant transmission of comprehension but an in depth and detailed explanation of the concepts at speeds that humans cannot attain with any of our methods. Add the telepathic ability to read moods and states of mind which alone would dramatically enhance human teaching.

[Arioch]

How did communication in loroi society evolve. We know they don't have a public internet, and that most of the population is not literate but they have telepathy to make up for it, so how did information in early Loroi society get distributed.

I know it would have probably been diffused quickly through a settlement, but in a totalitarian state would any Martin Lutherisqe figures have the privacy to form their ideas without the powers-that-be taking preemptive action, even killing off entire settlements whose members are unable to shut up about seditious political ideas. (Literally incapable, as Loroi can't lie)

And as for other information, things like government supported "pamphlet sized" bits of information could travel very quickly throughout even primitive settlements, but are "book sized" subject oriented pieces like evolution and the like relegated to being studied and kept by those with idetic memories and the literate?

The Loroi use telepathy first and foremost to communicate. Much information, especially technical and scientific, is written down and made available in interconnected digital libraries, but for the most part the Loroi depend on their memories (and those of their readily-accessible co-workers). We in modern Western society externalize a lot of data, and so have become out of practice in remembering things, but there are plenty of Earth cultures that never developed writing, and depended on memory and oral transmission for all of their information.

The vast majority of Loroi are literate and can understand spoken language, as they need to be able to read street signs and interact with non-telepathic machines, if nothing else. It's just that most don't do heavy amounts of reading or writing, and many speak very little and not very well.

One side effect of the truthfulness of telepathy is that the Loroi value honesty, and this means that they have to have a certain tolerance for disagreement. If a Loroi disagrees with her superior, she is expected to say so; this doesn't allow her to disobey an order, but she has a right to express her objection. Expressing an unpopular or dissenting opinion can get you into political trouble, and telling someone to her face that don't like her is not terribly diplomatic, but a warrior is expected to have the courage to be honest and accept the consequences. Telepathic debates can get contentious, but that is considered normal. Loroi "hate even as the gates of hell who says one thing while he hides another in his heart."

Voicing opposition to the government is not considered sedition unless you actually incite people to rebellion.

Actually how does Loroi education work? Does every teacher have an idetic memory or does being a teacher require one to be literate?

Most education is conveyed telepathically, and most Loroi teachers work from memory. Some do have eidetic memories.

I realize this sounds as if I believe that ancient Loroi government was run by an unchallenged monarchy, but I think that those in power, the lords, would constantly be liable to overthrow the emperor, as having passive knowledge of the mental state of your friends could be conducive to coordinating outbursts of emotion. Knowing that all your fellow lords also feel that Nero is acting a bit irrationally could speed up the assassination process, although how this would work with the peasantry, I have no idea.

That sword cuts both ways, as the emperor also has passive knowledge of the mental state of the lords, and will often have advance knowledge of a coming coup attempt. A system in which secrets are hard to keep tends to favor those in power.

Considering how their society is arranged I think that the civilian teachers don't need to be literate and their warrior teachers need to be literate. The biggest problem with human teaching is not passing the knowledge but making sure that the student comprehends the knowledge itself. With telepathy you also pass the comprehension the instant you pass the knowledge and as thus a lot of time is instantly saved. I wouldn't be surprised if Loroi to Loroi teaching of a subject could be finished in months when Human to Human it would take years.

Telepathy transmits information, not necessarily comprehension, but telepathic teaching is faster and more effective because of higher bandwidth and immediate feedback -- the teacher can immediately tell which students have understood the lesson. It has to be faster, because the Loroi children have half as long to learn what they need to reach adulthood as human children do.