Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

Beryl was reacting to the visuals of her side's ships taking damage; she was well beyond telepathic range.

I was thinking more of how the Loroi themselves deal with death, rather than the remains of the deceased. Alcohol isn't a thing for the Loroi, so drinking to the memory of the fallen is out. I'm just curious as to how they deal with the matter on a personal level ranging up to groups and beyond for extremely important people.

As Tempo mentioned on page 70, "We would not wish to fail to accommodate your death rituals. Loss is something we Loroi understand all too well". How do the Loroi deal with death?

Practices vary by subculture and by individual. The typical Loroi funeral would be familiar to us, except telepathic; those closest to the deceased share their memories. In a close-knit group, this sharing may involve direct telepathic link via touch. Such a link amounts almost to the sharing of the deceased herself's own memories, and as Krulle suggested, the presence of the dead can seem almost palpable, and can linger for long afterward. Depending on the situation, this presence can be a help or a harm to the bereaved. This is also, in a way, how Loroi seek a form of immortality.

As to how individual Loroi cope with death, it's complicated. Their feelings on the subject are ones that we would recognize, but the martial nature of their society of necessity views death as a normal part of life, and Loroi duty does not allow much leeway for self-destructive forms of grieving (such as drug use). On the plus side, telepathy allows for the sharing of grief in constructive ways... though this can be a double-edged sword.

The question of how a society and individuals cope with death on a constant basis (as in a war that has dragged on for 25 years) is an important issue and one that is dealt with in some depth in the story (as Tempo alludes to the in the line you quoted). I try to keep it light, but this story does have a body count, and that has to have an impact on the characters. (Despite the relatively light tone of the first chapter, many thousands of people have been killed in those events -- human, Loroi and Umiak.)

[Grayhome]

When Beryl said that the solon was the measure of a heartbeat, does that mean a Loroi heartbeat at rest? That would seem to be a less than accurate measure of time due to variations in how hearts beat at rest and at full exertion.

[cacambo43]

When Beryl said that the solon was the measure of a heartbeat, does that mean a Loroi heartbeat at rest? That would seem to be a less than accurate measure of time due to variations in how hearts beat at rest and at full exertion.

I just figured it was a good, narrative way to explain that it was roughly analogous to a second.

CJSF

[Arioch]

When Beryl said that the solon was the measure of a heartbeat, does that mean a Loroi heartbeat at rest? That would seem to be a less than accurate measure of time due to variations in how hearts beat at rest and at full exertion.

This is like saying that a foot is an inaccurate measure because people's feet are different sizes. As with the foot, the solon must have a clearly defined standard value that isn't subjective. The name in both cases is carried over from an earlier era in which there were no readily available accurate objective standard values.

Most archaic simple measurements are based on personal biometrics. The foot is based on the length of a foot, the yard is based on a pace, the cubit is the length of the forearm, the inch is based on the width of the thumb, and it's almost certainly no accident that a normal adult human resting heart rate is around 60 beats per minute.

[Grayhome]

Hmm, I guess that does make sense.

Makes me wonder about other arbitrary and ultimately cultural definitions of measurement, and what could have been.

[Sweforce]

Hmm, I guess that does make sense.

Makes me wonder about other arbitrary and ultimately cultural definitions of measurement, and what could have been.

And sometimes they come into conflict and a marsorbiter crashes. http://www.wired.com/2010/11/1110mars-c ... er-report/

An interesting fact, when Sweden adopted the metric system it was found that a Swedish mile was about ten kilometres so we kept the mile in our vocabulary and adjusted it to ten kilometres. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile

[Absalom]

Hmm, I guess that does make sense.

Makes me wonder about other arbitrary and ultimately cultural definitions of measurement, and what could have been.

Basically all of them. Even SI is arbitrary, it's ties to underlying traits of physics came after the definitions, instead of being their source, which was assorted measurements of the physical world (e.g. the meter was derived from the size of the Earth).

If you want non-arbitrary then you need to come up with units based on underlying traits of physics: seconds are probably fine... -ish (Plank time isn't really accurately known as far as I understand, and you need to start somewhere, though I suppose you could base it on the time for a full wavelength of specific frequency to pas a fixed point), but distances would need to be based on something like a specific frequency of light (presumably based on Cesium atomic clocks, just as the second probably would be). For temperature a revised version of the Centrigrade & Kelvin scale would likely be the best choice (base it on a container forcibly kept at a certain volume, which contains a certain number of molecules of water and O2: specify a set of values for 0 C, and another set for 100 C, then specify the nature of the Celsius/Kelvin offset). Define a replacement for the coloumb (about 160 times as large) and use that to derive the other electrical units. Define the replacement of the mole to be somewhere around 0.0006 the size of the current unit, and use that to derive the mass of the gram from something. Define both a pound-equivalent (used for earthly weights) and a newton-equivalent (used for more "scientific" weights) from other units, defining a standard value for Earth-gravity in the process. Etc. (It is probably worth noting that the SI is currently working on this sort of thing, but that their units will stay mostly the same, and thus have weird values when considered in terms of the underlying constants).

Hmm, I guess that does make sense.

Makes me wonder about other arbitrary and ultimately cultural definitions of measurement, and what could have been.

And sometimes they come into conflict and a marsorbiter crashes. http://www.wired.com/2010/11/1110mars-c ... er-report/

And this is why it's important to not encode your numerical units in simple ints (or floats), but instead in something that has to be explicitly converted.

[Razor One]

Practices vary by subculture and by individual. The typical Loroi funeral would be familiar to us, except telepathic; those closest to the deceased share their memories. In a close-knit group, this sharing may involve direct telepathic link via touch. Such a link amounts almost to the sharing of the deceased herself's own memories, and as Krulle suggested, the presence of the dead can seem almost palpable, and can linger for long afterward. Depending on the situation, this presence can be a help or a harm to the bereaved. This is also, in a way, how Loroi seek a form of immortality.

As to how individual Loroi cope with death, it's complicated. Their feelings on the subject are ones that we would recognize, but the martial nature of their society of necessity views death as a normal part of life, and Loroi duty does not allow much leeway for self-destructive forms of grieving (such as drug use). On the plus side, telepathy allows for the sharing of grief in constructive ways... though this can be a double-edged sword.

The question of how a society and individuals cope with death on a constant basis (as in a war that has dragged on for 25 years) is an important issue and one that is dealt with in some depth in the story (as Tempo alludes to the in the line you quoted). I try to keep it light, but this story does have a body count, and that has to have an impact on the characters. (Despite the relatively light tone of the first chapter, many thousands of people have been killed in those events -- human, Loroi and Umiak.)

Excellent, just what I was looking for, thanks! I can imagine that there are a lot of stories or folk tales about young warriors grieving too much over fallen comrades being 'possessed' by the 'ghost' of that fallen warrior, leading to the destruction of that unit. Kind of a crossover between campfire ghost stories and an aesop against letting grief have the better of you.

Loroi attitudes to death seem to be a fairly reasonable one given the bent of their society. I would say that it almost seems fatalistic, but I can't imagine that the Loroi accept the notion of fate or meekly accepting death when it comes. Do the Loroi reject the notion of destiny and fate? I'm positive the answer is no since it would probably undermine the warrior ethos they espouse. I get the feeling that warriors like Stillstorm firmly believe that they are the masters of their own destiny, that their successes and failures are upon them and to remit that to some outside force would be to abdicate personal responsibility and spurn their own valor in combat. Odd ones out might accept the notion though, especially if they might think that they're on the path to greatness.

{Edit}

And now I have an image in my head of a Loroi meeting with the Grim Reaper in the afterlife, but instead of the chess match that Death was expecting, he gets a knife to the face.

[Arioch]

Loroi attitudes to death seem to be a fairly reasonable one given the bent of their society. I would say that it almost seems fatalistic, but I can't imagine that the Loroi accept the notion of fate or meekly accepting death when it comes. Do the Loroi reject the notion of destiny and fate? I'm positive the answer is no since it would probably undermine the warrior ethos they espouse. I get the feeling that warriors like Stillstorm firmly believe that they are the masters of their own destiny, that their successes and failures are upon them and to remit that to some outside force would be to abdicate personal responsibility and spurn their own valor in combat. Odd ones out might accept the notion though, especially if they might think that they're on the path to greatness.

As with humans, some Loroi are comforted by the idea of fate, while some prefer to think that they are masters of their own destiny. But in a warrior society even certain knowledge of death does not mean that they fight any less hard. Citizen-soldiers view war as something to be got through, so that they can return to civilian life, but for a warrior culture, war is itself their purpose. Though they do not seek death, there is a sort of fatalistic acceptance that it's part of the business.

That said, there is a limit to how much death even a hardened warrior society can absorb before it starts to have problems.

[Sweforce]

Speaking of fatalistic warrior societies, in comparison to samurai culture or indeed klingon, is surrender an acceptable outcome of defeat or will they fight to the death regardless? I understand that they will against their current enemy the Umiak and this total war scenario but against a more normal enemy? The western world seem to run on the idea of that there is no shame in defeat as long as you fight as long as there is a point in doing so. For anyone that have seen the movie "Letters from Iwo Jima" the distinction should be clear, Japanese forces that rather commit suicide then retreat even when directly ordered to do so!

Hypothetical scenario, there is no Umiak/loroi conflict and when humanity get in contact with them, the technological gap has been closed and a human empire of sorts have the forces to match what the loroi can throw at them. Assuming that humanity will run western style, try to take prisoners and put in POW camps and so on in anticipation to be released upon an end to hostilities. Would the loroi be hard to capture like the WWII Japanese or would they accept surrender when defeated? I can understand that you may want to destroy your ship but this would allow for evacuation first. And how would they treat captured humans knowing that the humanity are trying to treat their prisoners with respect? And would it be honourable and acceptable for as conflict to end in a stalemate and a negotiated peace rather then one side crushing the other? The loroi have a track record of perpetual occupation of defeated enemies. Both Germany and Japan was utterly crushed in WWII but they was allowed to recover again and did so fast.

[dragoongfa]

Judging by the insider and the answers given in this thread about previous internal conflicts the Loroi accept the concept of 'defeat' as long as it was a clear cut case in the field of battle. IIRC The Deinar world war was such a conflict.

[Razor One]

Hazarding a guess, I'd say that if the Loroi viewed the conflict as honourable and above board, they might generally go for surrender if the battle is untenable. I doubt they'd accept occupation under any circumstances though, so expect a whole heaping of insurgency unless you're a fellow Loroi or until you can beat the fighting out of them.

The problem is that human Lotai no-sells the concept of an honourable conflict in Loroi eyes. We'd always be dirty sneaking bastards to them even if we're straight up in a fight. In an initial conflict surrender would be incredibly doubtful. After they get to know us as enemies? More likely, since they know they won't be vivisected or worse and would even be returned after the conflict ended, but still a low chance since it'd hurt their warrior pride.

[Arioch]

The "come back with your shield or on it" ethos can be useful as a motivation for rank and file troops, but it can quickly become toxic when taken to extremes, or when it's something that commanders start to believe. Being willing and able to retreat in the face of unfavorable circumstances is absolutely critical for success in warfare. No army can win every battle, and if you take "victory or death" literally (as Germany and Japan did in WWII), then defeat is inevitable, because the first battle you lose will destroy a large chunk of your army and ultimately lose you the war.

The Loroi tend to be pragmatic; they have a code of honor, but victory is paramount, and more important than personal honor. Loroi commanders can and will retreat when necessary (though there is a limit, as too many retreats or defeats can start to affect the army's morale).

Surrender is a separate question, but again it's a question of pragmatism. A psionic Loroi soldier can still be dangerous when disarmed, so Loroi don't make very good prisoners. Accordingly, taking prisoners was usually the exception rather than the rule in Loroi history. Therefore quarter was rarely asked or given, and even when offered, it was usually refused (as the losers knew they were going to be killed anyway). There was no great dishonor in being taken prisoner; it might even be advantageous, in certain circumstances (as a psionic POW could obtain and relay intelligence or even cause significant trouble). In later eras when warfare became more formal and ritualized, the taking and exchange of prisoners became more common. As you note, the Loroi will and have demanded and accepted the surrender of alien forces. But in most cases, if a Loroi unit is trapped and unable to withdraw, they expect to fight to the last. Loroi may surrender if offered the choice, if it seems practical under the circumstances.

[Karst45]

This is like saying that a foot is an inaccurate measure

But foot ARE an inaccurate Mesure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7x-RGfd0Yk (i like to tease those who use imperial )

[Arioch]

But foot ARE an inaccurate Mesure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7x-RGfd0Yk (i like to tease those who use imperial )

The imperial system is archaic and confusing, but that has nothing to do with accuracy. And since the foot is officially defined in terms of meters, the foot is exactly as accurate as the meter.

[Grayhome]

Hey Arioch I just had a thought, does jump sickness effect the Historians?

[Arioch]

Hey Arioch I just had a thought, does jump sickness effect the Historians?

If you mean the constructs, they have not shown any outward signs of being affected by jump sickness, but since they are software it would be difficult to tell for sure.

If you mean the biological Historians, no one knows. They travel outside their territory very rarely, and only aboard their own ships.

[Hālian]

Would it be possible for you to add some stuff about historian society/biology/etc. to the Insider or is it all possible spoilers? (Or is my memory on the fritz again?)

Had the loroi and umiak peaceful relations or indeed relations of any sort before the turn of the 22nd century?

[Arioch]

Would it be possible for you to add some stuff about historian society/biology/etc. to the Insider or is it all possible spoilers? (Or is my memory on the fritz again?)

There's not very much I can say about the Historians at present.

Had the loroi and umiak peaceful relations or indeed relations of any sort before the turn of the 22nd century?

No, the first contact between Loroi and Umiak was in 2110.

[Sweforce]

Would it be possible for you to add some stuff about historian society/biology/etc. to the Insider or is it all possible spoilers? (Or is my memory on the fritz again?)

There's not very much I can say about the Historians at present.

Had the loroi and umiak peaceful relations or indeed relations of any sort before the turn of the 22nd century?

No, the first contact between Loroi and Umiak was in 2110.

It seems to me that the war is really about destroying a competing empire. Any peace treaty signed between them would only last as long as they need to rearm and train a new generation of warriors. The whole affair reminds me of the Punic wars actually.