Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[icekatze]

hi hi

This is not an issue of calculation, this is an issue of physics.

If you send a vessel out before it is needed, then it will still end up wasting a lot of time hanging around some other place where it is not being useful. And perhaps, as the situation changes across multiple systems with no faster than light means of communication, they might end up having to waste resources back tracking later to get to where they need to be. Because transit times and engagement periods are measured in days and weeks, it is quite possible that cargo ships have already been loaded prior to getting the signal that they are required to move out.

The people at the base don't know which ships are still intact, they don't know which ships are depleted and by how much. The may know that a fleet is generally giving off a smaller signal via farseer, but that is not a detailed technical readout. They may not even know exactly which route the strike group is going to take ahead of time.

The ships in the Outsider universe are not traveling across an ocean. They are traveling between stars from where they cannot communicate with each other. There is a maximum safe system transit speed that pretty much any military vessel can achieve. However, if resupply vessels are arriving far apart from each other, then the fleet will end up having to stop and go repeatedly.

[discord]

sweforce: as icekatze pointed out, exact requests for things could be difficult to say the least without near instant communication since it takes WEEKS for the request to get there and more weeks to get the supplies where you want it, and just for kicks how much has the stores been depleted by more engagements by then?

the answer is forward supply depots(or just points where the supply ships wait although a simple station would probably be a much better solution since the cargo ships would not go back half full then) that have 'stuff' where the raiding groups pick up supplies the depot requests the materiel it needs.... saves weeks on the round trip or the war ships(needed for fuel if nothing else) just the right way to do it.

although supply ships could work, large mobile storehouse/shipyard/tug things, a mobile station so to speak.

[Suederwind]

They speak of a supply column that SG 51 is meeting. So we can expect that to be more than one ship and not some kind of death star siced mobile supplybase.
I assume those columns are directet by farseers to various SGs and return to their base to resupply, when their stocks are empty. That could mean that the one who can pick first might get the cool stuff, like blisters/fancy food/new personal/etc... and the others might only get some rations and plaster.
The hierachy on who can pick first, will for sure have something to do with their rank, influence and reputation. Like, for example, the german 6th army in Stalingrad: There was way too little supplies, but the important and influential officers still managed to hold up a decent lifestile with coffee, fresh food and choclate, while the lower food soldiers and officers had to be happy to get a slice of bread.
The situation for the Loroi is not as dire, as in that example, but I am sure there is a lot of rivalry about supplies in general, too.

[dragoongfa]

Everyone should bear in mind that the front lines have been static for years, the most basic strategem for resupplying the raider groups would be to establish forward supply outpost that would be directly supplied from Citadel systems. The outposts would then organize the resupply convoys that would meet the raider groups.

This whole system would work with farsense provided that the raider groups are able to stop deep strike fleets from attacking the outposts in force.

[Krulle]

IF the opponent ever finds out where your supply bases are....

You can also just drop the supplies on camouflaged stores in the outer rim of more-or-less safe systems (undisputed, but not free from occasional attacks).
Your people know, if needed they come and pick up the drifting stuff, and get back to fighting. No need to have an exposed supply ship waiting.
Empty return stuff can be "stored" that way too.

Easy to do with programming into the nav-computer too. The needed data can be stored encoded during a refitting at a major base, and when the commander needs stuff, he she can enter a code in the system, and the system will tell him her where something for her group should be. Different codes for different supplies are possible that way.
If the ship is damaged beyond the point where the supplies would be usable, the data can be deleted, and thus no chance of the opponent of learning where you store your stuff.

This is especially practical for weaponry/missile blisters.

The better predictable supplies for the living meat can be done by supply ships, but hidden weapon caches for fast resupplies can make nasty surprises too.

You can set the data in the memory with a "wipe" function, in case the stuff has not been requested before a certain date.

Yet, it is still better to have a supply ship hanging back with the major supplies, and resupply from there after each battle, until the supply ship is empty. Then that flies home to refill, while the battle group finishes another mission or two and comes back itself for refitting/repairs.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Citadels are basically semi-mobile supply depots. They are the forward supply depots.

The front lines may be static, but the role of the interdiction fleets is not simply to destroy Umiak incursions before they reach the main Loroi line, but to weaken them. The interdiction fleets are very effective, but the Umiak incursions still sometimes manage to break through and reach the bulk of the Loroi defensive line.

A supply base is not going to be easy to hide. Without something convenient like a protoplanetary disk to hide in, there is essentially no realistic way to hide in space. If even a handful of Umiak ships reach the system where the forward supply depot is orbiting, said depot is not likely to survive.

The distance between their current supply depots and the interdiction fleets is by design. They laid waste to the steppes so that they'd have enough time to interdict Umiak fleets before they reached a system with anything valuable in it.

[Arioch]

If the loroi doesn't bother much with centrally planned logistics and instead just shuffle supplies towards frontlines things can get ugly. With a first come first served system, those at the front will constantly suffer shortages of spare parts and eat the worst food and be short of ammo. And if Black razor suck up those cool Blisters, the others may end up without making it easier to win the next wager as well.

There are two basic types of supply shipping: merchant shipping within Loroi territory (movement of goods and parts between Union colonies, and movement of supplies and materiel between production locations and frontline bases), and military supply convoys that take supplies and materiel from frontline bases to units in the field. The former is mostly done by alien shipping and a Loroi merchant marine that is technically civilian (though it is among the higher-prestige civilian groups), and JQBogus is right that these ships will mostly operate independently, as they have no need for convoy protection. The latter is done mostly by military transports and usually operate in convoys, as they do sometimes venture into contested territory and must resupply whole fleets at a time. Resupply of a fleet in the field can save a week or more (as opposed to the fleet having to return to base), even if the rendezvous is only one or two jumps from base. Coordination of strike groups and resupply convoys can be challenging without FTL comm, but the Farseers at base can see the fleets coming and send a convoy (with supplies and new orders) to intercept them, and the Farseer(s) with the fleet can see the approaching convoy.

Supplies will be allocated to specific fleets by central logistics (it's not a free-for-all), but because of the dynamic nature of battle beyond range of communication, supply must be somewhat ad-hoc. Need of remote units cannot always be accurately anticipated (SG51 doesn't have the same number of ships as it did when it was last in communication with base), and many times available supply will be insufficient to meet all requests. Of course there will be quotas on critical supplies that must be divided evenly (one ship will not be allowed to take all the food or fuel, for example), but when it comes to much-coveted but optional items that are in short supply like torpedoes, there often won't be enough to go around. Distribution is normally up to the fleet commander, and evidently Stillstorm allows her subordinates to compete for first pick of certain items. But even just being the first to take on the normal allocation of supplies can be important if things suddenly and unexpectedly get ugly.

Perhaps that is part of the reason why Stillstorm has her personal shuttle retrofitted for carrying cargo. The idea being that the fleet is re-supplied as quickly a possible, freeing up the supply convoy to return to base and prepare to re-supply someone else. Meanwhile, if there does turn out to be a need to re-arrange the supplies in fleet, they can swap the necessary supplies with their small craft while they are en-route to their next jump point.

Yeah, supply is crucial for a raider fleet, and Stillstorm has little need to ferry VIP's around.

Citadels are basically semi-mobile supply depots. They are the forward supply depots.

That's right. The frontline fleet bases are also supply depots. They get hit by Umiak assault regularly, and so must be able to defend themselves. These bases (such as Azimol) are where the sector fleets are based, but it also helps if there is defensive infrastructure, hence the citadels.

You can also just drop the supplies on camouflaged stores in the outer rim of more-or-less safe systems (undisputed, but not free from occasional attacks). Your people know, if needed they come and pick up the drifting stuff, and get back to fighting. No need to have an exposed supply ship waiting. Empty return stuff can be "stored" that way too.

This strikes me as a dangerous practice; the Umiak are notorious scavengers. I'm not sure how you'd hide such a pick-up location (sooner or later, your ships will be observed visiting them), and even if you booby-trap the stores, there's not much a bored Umiak crew likes better than a puzzle to solve.

Arioch, what do the Loroi think of genetic , cybernetic and surgical modification? Modification of themselves, other races, plants and animals.

Loroi medical technology is sophisticated enough so that they know that they themselves and the other Soia-Liron organisms have already been genetically modified (at the very least). So while they don't have a philosophical or religious revulsion to the idea of genetic engineering, they also don't see much need for doing more of it, as they and their domesticated organisms already have very good adaptations.

Genetic engineering is very useful in pharmaceutical research and production, which the Loroi take full advantage of. They have made limited experiments in trying to increase Loroi psi occurrence and power through genetic modification, mostly without success.

Most Loroi do have a revulsion to cybernetic or surgical modification, seeing it as mutilation. Loroi medical technology is sophisticated enough that they can repair most bodily damage with tissues instead of mechanical devices, so they don't have much need for cybernetic alteration -- with a few notable exceptions.

[Hālian]

What are some (non-spoilerific) notable exceptions to the loroi revulsion to cybernetic modification?

Also, why is the bima (64 sn = 69.81... s) fallen into relative disuse?

[Arioch]

What are some (non-spoilerific) notable exceptions to the loroi revulsion to cybernetic modification?

The one that comes readily to mind is rather spoilerific.

Also, why is the bima (64 sn = 69.81... s) fallen into relative disuse?

It hasn't, as far as I'm aware.

[Hālian]

Also, why is the bima (64 sn = 69.81... s) fallen into relative disuse?

It hasn't, as far as I'm aware.

These are the Loroi units that I have in my notes:
1 solon “beat”: one heartbeat, 1.092 seconds. The average rest heartbeat for a female Loroi is approx. 55 beats per minute.
1 bima “moment” = 1 dinosolon = 64 solon (70 seconds). Infrequently used unit between beat and cycle.
1 digel “cycle” 1 danzosolon = 1 dinobima = 64 bima = 8 nestasolon = 4096 solon = 4473 seconds (1.25 hours)
1 tibos “day” = 21 digel = 26.09 Earth hours
1 nanapi “transit”= 241.92 hours (10.08 Earth days)
1 mannal “pace” = 0.776 m
1 malir solon “radiance beat”~= 1.1 light second, 327,373 km.
1 Deinar sina “Deinar gravity” or “standard gravity”: 9.216 m/s^2, ~= 0.94G
1 nasitosdal sina “shipboard gravity” = 7/8 (0.875) standard gravity = 0.82G
1 Deinar tozon = one Deinar year, similar to one Earth year
1 nistil tozon = “standard year;” (22,195,037 seconds, 256.887 Earth days, .7033 Earth years)

(emphasis mine)

[RedDwarfIV]

Would it be practical to use significant movements of forces (or part of a force) in conjunction with Farseeing to produce FTL communication? Say, take a frigate and make it jump between star systems back and forth, with differing times between each jump (effectively Morse code)?

[Arioch]

Ah. I meant infrequently used in the sense of frequency of use in the comic. I mainly use solon/beat/second and to a lesser extent digel/cycle/hour so that I can cut down on the number of units that have to be explained to the reader.

Would it be practical to use significant movements of forces (or part of a force) in conjunction with Farseeing to produce FTL communication? Say, take a frigate and make it jump between star systems back and forth, with differing times between each jump (effectively Morse code)?

Broad pre-planned movements could be used as a crude signal (as a sort of "one if by land, two if by sea"), but I don't think using timed jumps as a code would be very effective. For one thing, it would be very slow. A typical jump velocity is around 1500 km/s; so a turnaround at 30G would take almost three hours, under optimal circumstances. You'd have to build in some significant delay time to allow for errors in jump depth (you may have to waste time getting back to the jump point if you randomly enter the system too deep or too shallow). So something like eight to ten hours to transmit each bit of information, and that's assuming that no one is interfering with you. Anything that forces you to change plan or even just delays you will result in false information being sent.

[RedDwarfIV]

Broad pre-planned movements could be used as a crude signal (as a sort of "one if by land, two if by sea"), but I don't think using timed jumps as a code would be very effective. For one thing, it would be very slow. A typical jump velocity is around 1500 km/s; so a turnaround at 30G would take almost three hours, under optimal circumstances. You'd have to build in some significant delay time to allow for errors in jump depth (you may have to waste time getting back to the jump point if you randomly enter the system too deep or too shallow). So something like eight to ten hours to transmit each bit of information, and that's assuming that no one is interfering with you. Anything that forces you to change plan or even just delays you will result in false information being sent.

I was about to suggest it might be a good use for automated scouts, then I remembered that Farseeing relies on the target having a mind that can be detected by the Farseers.

Speaking of (though it's probably more the sort of thing that should be in the Terran/Umiak thread), have the Umiak considered sending automated attack vessels to avoid Farseer interception?

[Arioch]

Speaking of (though it's probably more the sort of thing that should be in the Terran/Umiak thread), have the Umiak considered sending automated attack vessels to avoid Farseer interception?

If a force can avoid Farseer detection, it can probably avoid interdiction and may be able to catch some of the main fleet out of position, but it will still need to be able to fight through any system defenses and reserve fleets it comes across. So you will have to build a large and powerful automated fleet; a few ships won't do.

The biggest problem with this is that it is well-established in this setting that starships have crews. Since combat (and even just regular jump travel) is dangerous, and crews require expensive life support, there have to be reasons why the crews are there in the first place. If not, the setting doesn't make sense. Whatever those reasons may be, the implication is that automated ships must be at a significant disadvantage compared with crewed ships.

This has been discussed many times before, so I'm sure you can find a long list of reasons if you search for them, but there are two top contenders that come to mind:

• Unless you have truly sentient AI (which the Umiak don't), living crews will be able to make better decisions, especially when dealing with the unexpected, than automated systems. This will affect performance in high-level strategy, mid-level tactics, and low-level systems like damage control. An automated starship is not only likely to be less effective, but it may not end up doing what you want it to do at all.
• The Loroi have an ally who does have very sophisticated AI and much more advanced computing technology than the Umiak, and who are very good at compromising automated systems. An automated starship without a living operator to watch for intrusions and trigger countermeasures or local overrides is in very real danger of being disabled or even commandeered.

[RedDwarfIV]

• Unless you have truly sentient AI (which the Umiak don't), living crews will be able to make better decisions, especially when dealing with the unexpected, than automated systems. This will affect performance in high-level strategy, mid-level tactics, and low-level systems like damage control. An automated starship is not only likely to be less effective, but it may not end up doing what you want it to do at all.
• The Loroi have an ally who does have very sophisticated AI and much more advanced computing technology than the Umiak, and who are very good at compromising automated systems. An automated starship without a living operator to watch for intrusions and trigger countermeasures or local overrides is in very real danger of being disabled or even commandeered.

Reminds me of the Dark Ships plot arc from The Lost Fleet book series.

SpoilerShow

It was an ongoing theme in the series that the Alliance government wanted automated warships to cut down on crews that required payment and training (their economy was almost spent from the war). However, AIs in the setting are particularly dumb. They just don't have the technology to build a working automated warship.

But then the government goes and builds a fleet of automated warships anyway. They use a simulation of what the main character would do, to guide their own tactics, while leaving strategy up to fleet regulations and the single human admiral who was supposed to be running them. Problem is, in trying to make the ships think like humans, they introduce the issue of conflict between programmed safeguards and humans' lack of such things. The result is that the warships go psychotic and start bombarding neutral/allied targets.

As for countermeasures, the warships basically refused to take any outside orders at all.

[discord]

actually timed jumps could very well work, crude yes, but by jumping parts of the fleet depending on how much of the fleet and interval it could be used to send a message...
but I am guessing three instances at most and depending on when you put the 'main push' you could send a message....it's only one out of three but still.
I suppose timing could be used to create more variation but you are still talking about a single previously decided meaning.
although jump in 1/4 the fleet, wait predetermined time jump in the rest...
all is fine
need resupply
hostiles on our back
error code(want to say something but no code for it)
there are other possibilities.

and of course no such delay...which means prepare for war because we cant wait for the signal system.

[Hālian]

ground-based infantry will probably have a greater variety of low-ranking titles

Would it be possible for you to elaborate on the rank structure(s) of ground forces?

[Arioch]

ground-based infantry will probably have a greater variety of low-ranking titles

Would it be possible for you to elaborate on the rank structure(s) of ground forces?

I have only a few notes on infantry organization.

Loroi infantry units are organized into teams (topom) of 8 warriors led by a Tonzadi (a junior officer analogous to an NCO). A combat infantry team typically includes 2 robots (in addition to the 8 warriors), essentially a pack mule and a self-propelled squad heavy weapon. Most of the warriors will be Soroin Pideir, but there are also a variety of specialist titles of similar rank.

A company (seillit) is a group of 8 teams (~70 warriors) led by a company commander (Sezon or Pallan), assisted by a "Chosen" officer (Ragan). Either or both of these officers may commonly be Teidar instead of Soroin. A company will also have a number of support personnel such as medics, supply officers, etc.

A cohort (mirrima) is a battalion-sized (~500 warriors) unit of 8 companies, led by a Pallan who is also the First Company commander. The mirrima is usually the smallest unit capable of independent deployment. The Pallan is usually a Teidar and may have a variety of staff officers depending on whether the unit is operating independently or as part of a legion.

A legion (manzis) is a brigade-sized (~5,000 warriors) unit of 8-10 cohorts and support units, commanded by a Rozerrei and 6-8 staff officers. This is the primary high-level organization of Loroi infantry.

Larger units consisting of multiple legions, sometimes called tipala or just "armies" (letai), are commanded by various flavors of Torrai flag-level officers.

[cacambo43]

Was there an explanation (Insider, perhaps) for why the Loroi use base 8 instead of 10, when they have 10 fingers (assuming that's why WE use base 10)? Is it an "unknown" legacy from the Soia?

CJSF

[Arioch]

Was there an explanation (Insider, perhaps) for why the Loroi use base 8 instead of 10, when they have 10 fingers (assuming that's why WE use base 10)? Is it an "unknown" legacy from the Soia?

The Loroi language and numeric systems are all borrowed from the Soia system, which was base-8.

The Barsam theory on why the Soia system was base-8 is that the Soia had 8 fingers (as the Barsam and Neridi do).
The Loroi theory is that the base-8 system has to do with computational efficiency, and nothing to do with something as primitive as number of fingers.