Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Siber]

And the Siber theory is that their number system was picked to keep the peasants from being too comfortable doing their own math.

[Hālian]

Why is it called psychokinesis instead of telekinesis?

[Arioch]

And the Siber theory is that their number system was picked to keep the peasants from being too comfortable doing their own math.

It's not too hard to make peasants afraid of math. We're doing it pretty effectively with base-10.

Why is it called psychokinesis instead of telekinesis?

For the most part the two terms are interchangeable, but if you want to get technical, telekinesis is a subset of psychokinesis.

Telekinesis usually refers to the specific ability to move an object remotely.

Psychokinesis usually refers to the more general ability to affect matter remotely, including telekinesis, but also the ability to increase or decrease the temperature of an object, or manipulate the flow of electricity.

In the GURPS model, psychokinesis is a power, while telekinesis is a skill.

[Eluvatar]

Theoretically one could also argue, supposing the inventors of Trade had human-like hands, that they didn't use their thumbs for counting.

As an example of such logic, in Slavic languages the transition from paucal to plural is between 4 and 5 (rather than between 5 and 6).

[Dirty Yasuki]

So something just occurred to me after 4 years of following this comic and reading pages 106-109, why would the Loroi NOT annihilate humanity?

I apologize if this question has been asked and answered already but seriously, why not? What good reason does the Loroi have to allow humanity to live?

1. ) At this time, Humanity has little scientific and military capability so it can't really aid the Loroi or Umiak in any significant capacity. Plus our region of space seems to be behind enemy occupied territory so any effort by the Loroi to make peaceful contact with us would be more risky and costly than it would be beneficial. This presents another potential problem for Loroi military planners, but I'll get to that later.

2.) Considering their discovery that Humanity has a means to deflect Loroi telepathy and their far-sensing technology, it would be reasonable to assume that Humanity is a liability to the Loroi race as a whole. It's true we can be allies or enemies, but either way we are a gigantic liability to the blue space elves at this time. If we become allies, that means we'll have to engage the Umiak in combat at some point and capture by the Umiak would become all but inevitable. For Loroi strategic planners Umiak captured humanity fighters are absolutely unacceptable, because if the Umiak discover humanities special trait, that could spell the end of the Loroi. Worst case scenario: Captured Humans + cloning + Umiak industry = Swarms of Infested Terrans overrunning the blue space elves.

If we do become allies, I wouldn't be surprised with humanity fighters being kept as far away from the fighting as possible or if at all unavoidable, Humanity will be given the equivalent of explosive collars or some other countermeasure to ensure that no living human will be captured by the bugs. Even then that would not guarantee that the bugs won't eventually figure out humanity's potential threat to the Loroi, it will just take longer if all they have are corpses rather than living test subjects to go on.

3.) Considering the revelation that Humanity space apparently according to page 106 lies behind Umiak occupied territories, it stands to reason that Humanity will most likely have contact with the Umiak sooner than the Loroi will. It's only a matter of time.

Considering all of the above, it would be safer for Loroi strategic planners to advocate for the immediate and no-quarter extinction of the entire Terran race. Because even if humanity could somehow manage to ally themselves to the Loroi and somehow end up turning the tide against the implacable Umiak and their allies, a galaxy where an entire race of beings are naturally suited to being the antithesis of your own race is a scary prospect for any but the most complacent and open-minded of Loroi.

As formidable as the Loroi are as a warrior-race with their greater birth rate of females to males and their more advanced tech, humanity as a race is geared for survival. It stands to reason that humanity can outstrip the Loroi in terms of expansion and population given enough time. When that happens humanity will go from simply being a "irritating liability" to full-blown "John Cena-level threat".

Never mind the possibility of Umiak supporters and collaborators among humanity as possibly implied at the beginning of Chapter 2. Because with these recent revelations, if there was any doubt to humanity being a threat to the Loroi, this would remove them. At this time we are worth more alive to the Umiak than the Loroi and that means, if I were a prudent Loroi military commander, I would purge the galaxy of humanity, before it's too late.

What do you guys think? I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but at the same time, these issues in the story are interesting to me and I would like to see them addressed by arioch in the story at some point.

[discord]

yasuki:
1: not so much behind as to the side, it seems the umiak are trying to outflank/englobe the loroi and cut them of from expansion and humanity would be a good way to avoid this from a pure logistics stand point.
2: this is a issue, yes, but the umiak have shown great reluctance to use anyone not umiak in the actual fighting, like if they did not trust them *shock*. which is pretty much what the loroi also do.
so bottom line, it is unlikely the humans will be fighting on the fronts, support is another question.
but corpses have no telepathic signature, and therefor the umiak could never learn of it until they had a live subject, or spies(which have fared so well against the loroi so far).

3: no, not behind more to the side, which admittedly is a side the umiak are expanding to cut off, but have not done so yet, making terran space very valuable to the loroi.
http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/image ... ropped.jpg <---- as shown in this map.

[Dirty Yasuki]

discord:
Well, that changes some things and that makes everything more interesting, but what about the possibility of Umiak collaborators and supporters among humans? It sounds like the general winds of preference favor humans siding with the Umiak over the Loroi based on Alex and Cmdr. Hamilton's interview. The biggest concern at this point is keeping humanities secret from the Umiak if they want to stay on the Loroi's good side, because once word of that gets out getting live humans won't be a huge problem. It's just a matter of when not how.

And then, our general life expectancy plummets from snowballs chance in hell to everyone out of the universe!!!

[cacambo43]

Arioch has made is fairly clear (and the current Loroi circumstances imply it) that even if the Loroi want to wipe out humanity, they do not have the time or resources to do so without seriously compromising their ability to fight and defend their own territory against the Umiak. They'd be risking total loss of the war in that kind of endeavor.

CJSF

[Dirty Yasuki]

Arioch has made is fairly clear (and the current Loroi circumstances imply it) that even if the Loroi want to wipe out humanity, they do not have the time or resources to do so without seriously compromising their ability to fight and defend their own territory against the Umiak. They'd be risking total loss of the war in that kind of endeavor.

CJSF

Ahh that's good to know. But still I would like to see this line of thinking portrayed in the story at some point. I think it would add a great layer of depth and complexity to the plots in play.

Not to mention it could mean that at some point in the story instead of openly wiping out humanity in a ball of fire, paranoid Loroi could send agents to keep watch over humanity and covertly put contingencies in place to ensure humanities eventual demise once their usefulness is at an end.

[icekatze]

hi hi

The reach of the Loroi does seem rather limited. I wonder if they would be able to make use of Terran space even if the Terrans join the Loroi Union. For Alex, that may create some rather pragmatic problems, if it looks like the Loroi are on the verge of losing the war, just as he's trying to befriend them.

[Arioch]

Arioch has made is fairly clear (and the current Loroi circumstances imply it) that even if the Loroi want to wipe out humanity, they do not have the time or resources to do so without seriously compromising their ability to fight and defend their own territory against the Umiak. They'd be risking total loss of the war in that kind of endeavor.

I don't recall saying this, exactly. I think what I said was (in a discussion about a hypothetical war between Loroi and Humanity) that the Loroi don't really have the resources to spare to invade, occupy, and hold human territory. That doesn't rule out annihilation, which would be much easier. In a situation in which humanity declared war on the Loroi but did not yet have Umiak assistance, and in which the Loroi realized how poorly defended human territory was, humanity could be in serious danger of annihilation.

However, humanity is not currently at war with the Loroi, and the Loroi don't currently know how vulnerable we are, or even where our planets are located. The Loroi are not known for attacking (much less annihilating) people who have never done them harm, and so it would take an unusual situation to trigger so drastic an action. It could also be a self-fulfilling prophecy, pushing any human survivors into the Umiak camp and giving them motivation to take revenge against the Loroi at any cost. But it's not off the table, and the subject will be addressed in the story.

Human space is not exactly "behind" Umiak territory, but getting there does go through contested territory (through which, at this moment, there is a significant Umiak offensive underway). It would take not-insignificant logistical effort to get there.

[cacambo43]

Arioch has made is fairly clear (and the current Loroi circumstances imply it) that even if the Loroi want to wipe out humanity, they do not have the time or resources to do so without seriously compromising their ability to fight and defend their own territory against the Umiak. They'd be risking total loss of the war in that kind of endeavor.

I don't recall saying this, exactly. I think what I said was (in a discussion about a hypothetical war between Loroi and Humanity) that the Loroi don't really have the resources to spare to invade, occupy, and hold human territory. That doesn't rule out annihilation, which would be much easier. In a situation in which humanity declared war on the Loroi but did not yet have Umiak assistance, and in which the Loroi realized how poorly defended human territory was, humanity could be in serious danger of annihilation.

However, humanity is not currently at war with the Loroi, and the Loroi don't currently know how vulnerable we are, or even where our planets are located. The Loroi are not known for attacking (much less annihilating) people who have never done them harm, and so it would take an unusual situation to trigger so drastic an action. It could also be a self-fulfilling prophecy, pushing any human survivors into the Umiak camp and giving them motivation to take revenge against the Loroi at any cost. But it's not off the table, and the subject will be addressed in the story.

Human space is not exactly "behind" Umiak territory, but getting there does go through contested territory (through which, at this moment, there is a significant Umiak offensive underway). It would take not-insignificant logistical effort to get there.

Thanks for the clarification.

CJSF

[Dirty Yasuki]

I don't recall saying this, exactly. I think what I said was (in a discussion about a hypothetical war between Loroi and Humanity) that the Loroi don't really have the resources to spare to invade, occupy, and hold human territory. That doesn't rule out annihilation, which would be much easier. In a situation in which humanity declared war on the Loroi but did not yet have Umiak assistance, and in which the Loroi realized how poorly defended human territory was, humanity could be in serious danger of annihilation.

Then Alex better be lying his pants off or keep mum about their military strength, because once that is revealed along with humanity's best kept secret (so secret even we don't know), it won't take long before some paranoid asshole out there will put two and one together and call for wiping out humanity. Of course, as the Loroi are at war at this point, they will get an idea of Humanity's military capability if we want to become allies with them before long. So I guess annihilation is still on the table.

However, humanity is not currently at war with the Loroi, and the Loroi don't currently know how vulnerable we are, or even where our planets are located. The Loroi are not known for attacking (much less annihilating) people who have never done them harm, and so it would take an unusual situation to trigger so drastic an action. It could also be a self-fulfilling prophecy, pushing any human survivors into the Umiak camp and giving them motivation to take revenge against the Loroi at any cost. But it's not off the table, and the subject will be addressed in the story.

Except, they have a taste for genocide and are quite talented at it and, as for incurring Loroi hostility, I heard staying neutral would do the trick. I can't imagine being a perceived threat would take much to convince the Loroi to come after us once our own location and military capabilities (or lack thereof) are known.

I literally can't wait for more panels.

[Zakharra]

I don't recall saying this, exactly. I think what I said was (in a discussion about a hypothetical war between Loroi and Humanity) that the Loroi don't really have the resources to spare to invade, occupy, and hold human territory. That doesn't rule out annihilation, which would be much easier. In a situation in which humanity declared war on the Loroi but did not yet have Umiak assistance, and in which the Loroi realized how poorly defended human territory was, humanity could be in serious danger of annihilation.

Then Alex better be lying his pants off or keep mum about their military strength, because once that is revealed along with humanity's best kept secret (so secret even we don't know), it won't take long before some paranoid asshole out there will put two and one together and call for wiping out humanity. Of course, as the Loroi are at war at this point, they will get an idea of Humanity's military capability if we want to become allies with them before long. So I guess annihilation is still on the table.

However, humanity is not currently at war with the Loroi, and the Loroi don't currently know how vulnerable we are, or even where our planets are located. The Loroi are not known for attacking (much less annihilating) people who have never done them harm, and so it would take an unusual situation to trigger so drastic an action. It could also be a self-fulfilling prophecy, pushing any human survivors into the Umiak camp and giving them motivation to take revenge against the Loroi at any cost. But it's not off the table, and the subject will be addressed in the story.

Except, they have a taste for genocide and are quite talented at it and, as for incurring Loroi hostility, I heard staying neutral would do the trick. I can't imagine being a perceived threat would take much to convince the Loroi to come after us once our own location and military capabilities (or lack thereof) are known.

I literally can't wait for more panels.

In the Loroi's defense, they only genocide when pushed to it. They do not initiate it and it's an action of last resort only.

[JQBogus]

While some hotheads might call for precautionary genocide, such a course of action has some major problems.

Just one of these problems:

Loroi can't detect humans, so they can't be sure that they've gotten them all. If even one shipload of human refugees make it to Umiak space, then the Loroi are on a timer in their war with the Umiak. As I understand it, the only things keeping them afloat so far are their slight technical edge, and their ability to see Hierarchy fleets coming. If the Human/Umiak alliance figures out how to replicate Human Lotai, or can clone enough humans, then the Loroi will have to rely on their slight technical edge alone.

[dragoongfa]

Actually the Umiak have the slight technological edge in the form of their Plasma Focus weaponry, the Historians evened the odds by providing Plasma Pulse cannons which do lesser damage but have far greater range. The latest Plasma Focus weapons have also slightly increased range with lesser damage.

[GeoModder]

Actually the Umiak have the slight technological edge in the form of their Plasma Focus weaponry, the Historians evened the odds by providing Plasma Pulse cannons which do lesser damage but have far greater range. The latest Plasma Focus weapons have also slightly increased range with lesser damage.

Wave Loom device anyone? Technical limitations or not, enough of them can break the backbone of any Umiak assault fleet before they even come into Plasma Focus range.

[Eluvatar]

One thing I think we're missing in this discussion is that the Umiak appear to already have something resembling Lotai. I don't think it makes any sense for the Loroi to fear Humanity being used by the Umiak quite so much in this context.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I think it is actually quite the contrary. Since the Loroi have discovered the Umiak's lotai and humanity at the same time, they have some reason to suspect that the Umiak are currently using humanity, and that it is the source of their new found ability.

[dragoongfa]

Actually the Umiak have the slight technological edge in the form of their Plasma Focus weaponry, the Historians evened the odds by providing Plasma Pulse cannons which do lesser damage but have far greater range. The latest Plasma Focus weapons have also slightly increased range with lesser damage.

Wave Loom device anyone? Technical limitations or not, enough of them can break the backbone of any Umiak assault fleet before they even come into Plasma Focus range.

The Wave Loom device has issues that the Loroi haven't been able to fully counter just yet.

The Umiak also outnumber the Loroi fleets by a very noticeable margin and they don't seem to have much problem with absorbing casualties.

If the war was to be decided purely by industrial capacity and technology then the Umiak would have won long ago. The counter to everything is Loroi telepathy and how overpowered it makes the Loroi in certain vital fields, leaving the Umiak little room to use anything other than raw appliance of force.