Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

The accumulation of large amounts of all the knowledge required for fundamental breakthroughs, the rate of improvement has already studied technology and "elaboration" for open yet layers science goes faster, regardless of the level of development, only the number of people employed in research.

That's the way it has been in the past, but it's not possible to predict for certain how it will be in the future. There is a finite amount in the universe to learn; the curve has to flatten or dead-end at some point. Moore's Law can't continue forever; whether it fails in twenty years or a thousand years is anybody's guess.

But as I've said before, Outsider is not a prediction of the future. I think in a thousand years it's more likely that humanity will progress toward a society that we will find unrecognizable, but that's a very different kind of story.

[saint of m]

The accumulation of large amounts of all the knowledge required for fundamental breakthroughs, the rate of improvement has already studied technology and "elaboration" for open yet layers science goes faster, regardless of the level of development, only the number of people employed in research.

That's the way it has been in the past, but it's not possible to predict for certain how it will be in the future. There is a finite amount in the universe to learn; the curve has to flatten or dead-end at some point. Moore's Law can't continue forever; whether it fails in twenty years or a thousand years is anybody's guess.

But as I've said before, Outsider is not a prediction of the future. I think in a thousand years it's more likely that humanity will progress toward a society that we will find unrecognizable, but that's a very different kind of story.

Actualy WTFIWWY actually covered a news article on Moores Law on one of their Tech Q&A's and we've, at least at this current state of tech, have maxed it out.

THe Law itself is Computer tech improves every 9 months, with compter chips able t proces more on a smaller surface.

The problem is these things do generate heat and after a while there is too much heat being made to spen away before it has a melt down.

The next Tech breakthrough for us, as we are platood here, would be to fix that.

[Grayhome]

Actualy WTFIWWY actually covered a news article on Moores Law on one of their Tech Q&A's

Is this it? I always love talks about this sort of topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73R_F61W31U

[saint of m]

Yep. While the video does say its been declared dead several times, the end result is still the same: The more stuff you shov in there the hotter it gets.

I forgot how we haven't used all the capacity of cores, or the expense to produce them.

[Tamri]

Question:

Rummaging in the Internet, wondered "why the human body temperature of 36.6 degrees." According to the results I found interesting information:

- According to this schedule:

SpoilerShow

the heat capacity of water in the range of 36-40 is optimal, allowing you to spend less energy on heating and flexible regulate body temperature balance. That is, it's optimal temperature range for beings using water as a solvent, including of people.

- Fact number 2 is seen from the same graph - body temperature Loroi is almost on the border of "life zone" (27 degrees). This means that they have to spend more energy on heating of the body, which means they will faster freeze and overheat. If their thermoregulatory system not has serious differences from the human, neither of which tolerance to high, exactly like the low temperatures isn't of the question - the range of temperatures comfortable for them is significantly lower with respect to us, something about -10 - +30 degrees. Incidentally, the "heat stroke" from any warm-blooded occurs when the body temperature is rise above normal. For humans, this range of 38-41 degrees, to Loroi looks around 29-32 degrees. Which, given their problems with thermoregulatory, makes our planet not too comfortable for them, especially in summer and winter: the first for them in the majority of climatic zones is too hot, and the second - too cold.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I'm not sure if all of those conclusions can be appropriately made from that one graph. There are a large number of animals, especially ectothermic animals, that prefer to live at lower body temperatures than humans, and that many animals like amphibians use significantly less oxygen and energy at lower energy levels.

Other than water, different metabolic enzymes have different optimal temperature ranges, but generally speaking, metabolic processes tend to speed up as temperatures increase, and slow down as temperatures decrease.

"The overall rate of an animal's metabolism increases by a factor of about two for every 10 degree C increase."

Also, a major advantage of having a body temperature in the 30-40 degree range, is that it helps reduce chances of infection, especially fungal infection. For every 1 degree increase above 30 degrees, about 6% of fungal species cannot survive in those conditions. (There are orders of magnitude more fungal pathogens in insects than there are in birds and mammals.) And this is also part of why people's body temperatures increase when ill.

Of course, while having high body temperatures is beneficial to halt disease, making body temperatures too high causes an animal to require vastly more food. The Loroi, being an engineered race, probably have an excellent immune system.

[saint of m]

There is also how and why animals have theri body temp regulated.

A reptile and amphibian is coldblooded or ectothermo rely on their outside enviroment to regulate their body temperature. So when a turtle, crocodile, or frog spends any time out of the water sunning themselves, they do that. Their enviroment tells them how active or laid back to be, as well as help with digestion.

Reptiles tend to go longer without food because of this. In space travle this could be effective as they can go without food or water for a long time, and could literally chill out when not needed.

The disadvantage is they need to find places to warm up or cool down constantly, and in many cases can be found in dangerous spots (like out in the open or on a asphalt road as it keeps the heat from the day). This also limits where they can be, with most reptiles and amphibians living in temperate and tropical regions, while any in colder climates need to know how to hibernate.

Endothermic animals regulate their own body temperature. In some sharks its largly due to recycling heat though blood vens in the right spot to catch heat, while birds and mammals are due to using our food as a fuel. This makes us more active and mobile.

The disadvantage is we are prone to overheating, which is why many animals take mud baths, pant, and why human's ability to sweat is such an advantage over the other beasts.

We also need to eat more regularly, which also very from animal to animal, based usual on what they do. A sloth spends a month digesting its food and is named after one of the deadly sins for a reason. On the other hand, if your typical shrew doesn't eat something within an hour, it will die as its metabolism is through the roof to keep its body temperature up.

Loroi probably work under simalar concepts: their core temperature works well for them, and being telapathic, probably don't need to worry about being active all that much when their brains can do some extra work. They also eat less then a human, given what Arioch has said in the past, and they were geneticly modified into a race of super soldiers

[Tamri]

hi hi

SpoilerShow

I'm not sure if all of those conclusions can be appropriately made from that one graph. There are a large number of animals, especially ectothermic animals, that prefer to live at lower body temperatures than humans, and that many animals like amphibians use significantly less oxygen and energy at lower energy levels.

Other than water, different metabolic enzymes have different optimal temperature ranges, but generally speaking, metabolic processes tend to speed up as temperatures increase, and slow down as temperatures decrease.

"The overall rate of an animal's metabolism increases by a factor of about two for every 10 degree C increase."

Also, a major advantage of having a body temperature in the 30-40 degree range, is that it helps reduce chances of infection, especially fungal infection. For every 1 degree increase above 30 degrees, about 6% of fungal species cannot survive in those conditions. (There are orders of magnitude more fungal pathogens in insects than there are in birds and mammals.) And this is also part of why people's body temperatures increase when ill.

Of course, while having high body temperatures is beneficial to halt disease, making body temperatures too high causes an animal to require vastly more food. The Loroi, being an engineered race, probably have an excellent immune system.

There is. One problem - almost all of them are cold-blooded. And Loroi, for all his - certainly warm-blooded, but the low temperature norm. Yeah, they just fall into suspended animation or hibernation when the temperature drops below the optimal values. Regarding the fluctuate body temperature - no animals, cold-blooded it, or warm-blooded, isn't able to normal tolerate fluctuations in body temperature. Five degrees up or down - and already, or heat stroke or hypothermia. A cold-blooded or hibernate or hide where lower temperatures, if the street is too hot.

This depends on the enzyme, but generally, environment determines the temperature optimum instead metabolism. In fish, for example, the metabolism goes quietly at temperatures where we had almost nothing works, and vice versa.

Here are all living beings, including plants, for some reason, there is a huge arsenal of different dirty tricks to combat viruses and fungi, and is not a simple increase in temperature. As a rule, fever - is a consequence of other processes, not an independent phenomenon.

Where more likely that they have it there is little, in our understanding. Judging by the description of their home planets, microbial flora and fauna there isn't particularly thriving and Soia-organisms to all other extremely tolerant. So I rather admit the idea that Soia-Liron simply extremely tasteless / invisible for a variety of alien viruses.

[Absalom]

I think it more likely that the Loroi were engineered to have a unusually wide temperature range. Since, you know, Arioch has basically said that they do.

I remember that there's a frog with an abnormally wide survival range: the secret is that it's genes encode a lot more proteins than ours, most of which are equivalents to each other, but effective for a different temperature range. I suspect that much the same has been done with Loroi (with the right extra glands, occasional hypothermia-induced hibernation would probably even be possible).

[Tamri]

I think it more likely that the Loroi were engineered to have a unusually wide temperature range. Since, you know, Arioch has basically said that they do.

I remember that there's a frog with an abnormally wide survival range: the secret is that it's genes encode a lot more proteins than ours, most of which are equivalents to each other, but effective for a different temperature range. I suspect that much the same has been done with Loroi (with the right extra glands, occasional hypothermia-induced hibernation would probably even be possible).

Perhaps. However, this will require a flexible biochemistry, which will quickly rebuild the fermentation, especially if having at Loroi problems with the operational thermoregulation. And eat once a day with such a system will not work - rapid regulation need energy and "building blocks" that you want to fill. And too pulls on an elephant crossing with a parrot - in frogs is a necessary measure because they are cold-blooded. But Loroi is warm-blooded, and the build is so complex fence, combining both systems, it turns out clearly harder than banal raise body temperature by ten degrees. Need justify why they created such.

[Arioch]

Rummaging in the Internet, wondered "why the human body temperature of 36.6 degrees." According to the results I found interesting information:
- According to this schedule:

SpoilerShow

the heat capacity of water in the range of 36-40 is optimal, allowing you to spend less energy on heating and flexible regulate body temperature balance. That is, it's optimal temperature range for beings using water as a solvent, including of people.

This is circular logic, saying that bodies must be hot because water retains heat best when it's hot. That doesn't answer the question of why a body needs heat in the first place. Why does an ectothermic reptile need to bask in the sun to raise its body temperature? It has nothing to do with the heat capacity of water and efficiency of heating; ectotherms don't heat their own bodies. It's because the chemical processes that make its body work are more efficient at certain temperatures. What those temperatures are depends entirely on the organism's biochemistry.

An endotherm that regulates its body temperature has to spend a lot of energy to do so, and the higher the temperature, the more energy it has to "waste". Even if it were true that an endothermic body operating at a temperature around 27°C might have to spend fractionally more energy per degree above the environmental temperature (due to the slightly less-than-optimal heat capacity of water), that small inefficiency would be counterbalanced by not having to heat the body to a temperature 10 degrees higher. If an organism's biochemistry works most efficiently at 27°C, then that's what its core body temperature should be; it would be a waste of energy to heat it to 36°C.

Having a lower core body temperature doesn't necessarily affect heat or cold tolerance. Earth ectotherms can survive wide fluctuations in body temperature -- they have to, or they would die. Most Earth endotherms have lost this temperature flexibility because they don't need it (as they can regulate body temperature), but it doesn't follow that an alien endotherm must be similarly intolerant to body temperature fluctuations. As long as the chemical processes necessary for life can operate at a given temperature, there's no reason that an organism can't adapt to operate at that temperature. There are a few Earth mammals that can allow their core body temperatures to drop very low -- some almost to freezing -- and still survive.

[Tamri]

SpoilerShow

This is circular logic, saying that bodies must be hot because water retains heat best when it's hot. That doesn't answer the question of why a body needs heat in the first place. Why does an ectothermic reptile need to bask in the sun to raise its body temperature? It has nothing to do with the heat capacity of water and efficiency of heating; ectotherms don't heat their own bodies. It's because the chemical processes that make its body work are more efficient at certain temperatures. What those temperatures are depends entirely on the organism's biochemistry.

An endotherm that regulates its body temperature has to spend a lot of energy to do so, and the higher the temperature, the more energy it has to "waste". Even if it were true that an endothermic body operating at a temperature around 27°C might have to spend fractionally more energy per degree above the environmental temperature (due to the slightly less-than-optimal heat capacity of water), that small inefficiency would be counterbalanced by not having to heat the body to a temperature 10 degrees higher. If an organism's biochemistry works most efficiently at 27°C, then that's what its core body temperature should be; it would be a waste of energy to heat it to 36°C.

Having a lower core body temperature doesn't necessarily affect heat or cold tolerance. Earth ectotherms can survive wide fluctuations in body temperature -- they have to, or they would die. Most Earth endotherms have lost this temperature flexibility because they don't need it (as they can regulate body temperature), but it doesn't follow that an alien endotherm must be similarly intolerant to body temperature fluctuations. As long as the chemical processes necessary for life can operate at a given temperature, there's no reason that an organism can't adapt to operate at that temperature. There are a few Earth mammals that can allow their core body temperatures to drop very low -- some almost to freezing -- and still survive.

No, logic here is that the temperature hold within this optimum requires least power imputs. This is certainly not the answer, but half of it. As the theory (and practice, in the face of the diversity of species on our planet), metabolism can proceed even at temperatures slightly below zero and more than 45 degrees (deep-sea fish and poultry, respectively). But if the animal regulate their body temperature by yourself, then there are different interestnye details. For example, the higher body temperature - the higher tolerance to fluctuations in external temperature, and thus a greater range of comfortable temperatures. However, the farther from the optimum, the need to spend more energy to maintain a stable temperature. Shook back and forth during the evolution of all the major warm-blooded sunk in "the pit" schedule, ie range 34-40. There are exceptions, such as sloth, but they only prove the rule.

If Loroi have an average optimal 27-degree body temperature to heat they save only ~ 41 kJ less than that on the scale of the body change. And much less tolerance for temperature fluctuations is they obviously do not compensate.

You forget again that next to the tolerance to low temperatures is always be activity. Or rather, lack of it. Observe, for example, what the beetles are sluggish in late August - early September, and after the temperature dropped quite a bit. With all sorts of snakes, frogs, rodents occurs about the same, but by November-early December already tend to fall asleep all who can. To live with a low temperature can be a non-issue. The question that you will be six months or sleeping or drowsy crawl, and another six months to watch, that wouldn't overheated. And reasonable hardly become, because the developed brain requires an enormous amount of energy that must come from somewhere.

[icekatze]

hi hi

However satisfying a rational explanation may be, it must inevitably yield to empirical evidence. Exceptions do not prove the rule.

Warm-blooded and cold-blooded is an overly simplistic explanation of something that is a lot more complicated. There are lots of different temperature regulation methods available to animals. Some shrews, which are mammals, can regulate their own body temperature, and also vary it between 39.7 and 9 degrees C.

Antarctic Toothfish live at below freezing body temperatures, and can reach speeds equivalent to that of the seals that prey on them, around 40km/h. Meanwhile, seals are mammals that live in the same environment and often have to spend energy to cool themselves down because they are too well insulated.

Birds, on the other hand, are also warm blooded, but bird species have an average body temperature of 40.5 degrees C. Hummingbirds average 41.7, while Canaries (not as fast moving as hummingbirds) average around 42 degrees.

[Tamri]

hi hi

However satisfying a rational explanation may be, it must inevitably yield to empirical evidence. Exceptions do not prove the rule.

Warm-blooded and cold-blooded is an overly simplistic explanation of something that is a lot more complicated. There are lots of different temperature regulation methods available to animals. Some shrews, which are mammals, can regulate their own body temperature, and also vary it between 39.7 and 9 degrees C.

Antarctic Toothfish live at below freezing body temperatures, and can reach speeds equivalent to that of the seals that prey on them, around 40km/h. Meanwhile, seals are mammals that live in the same environment and often have to spend energy to cool themselves down because they are too well insulated.

Birds, on the other hand, are also warm blooded, but bird species have an average body temperature of 40.5 degrees C. Hummingbirds average 41.7, while Canaries (not as fast moving as hummingbirds) average around 42 degrees.

Of course not, because, in general case, these exceptions do not exist.

To avoid misunderstandings: cold-blood - the inability to maintain a stable body temperature to their own means. If the creature's body temperature depends solely on external conditions - it is a cold-blooded, and period. All other cases are a variety of warm-blooded. You, again, missing out on a lot of accompanying factors. Can write long, but if briefly: sleep / hibernation and frostbite - it is absolutely different things without each other any common. Man, too, is capable of, figuratively speaking, "hibernate" (in yoga, for example), but that does not make it resistant to significant fluctuations in temperature. Be cool and active at the same time, as far as I know, no one has.

I do not deny that there are dozens of ways to thermoregulation species on the Earth alone, and as many more theoretical. The problem is that the existing Loroi sort of like a human set. In this case, their temperature conditions of at least ineffective. So what is needed or justify under their thermoregulatory mechanisms, or the answer to the question why they was created that way.

[Diodri]

Dude reading your posts is like, pass me some of that shit and try explaining that again.

[SVlad]

Unfortunately, Google translate is not very good in Russian.
So, it's like speaking with Umiak with translator . And on the opposite side Google translate produce the same gibberish.

[Krulle]

English is not his mother tongue.

He basically complains, that, if Humanity is taken as template for the Loroi, why change all the biochemistry to achieve a different optimum temperature where the body functions are working at optimum efficiency?

In this post, he posted a graphic where water has its best temperature change dampening effects (where water can take/give the highest calorie values per degree temperature change).

If you move away from the optimum place (lowest points of curve), the temperature balance gets unstable. A little bit colder/warmer has gigantic effects, while at optimum point the effects are small when ambient temperature changes. Optimum point is 36.8°C according to the curve he provided. Which is astonishingly close to the body temperature of a Human.

Now there are many ways a body can keep temperature within functional grades. But optimum is optimum, and if you're warm-blooded, why not go for optimum directly?

Others pointed out there are many elements that can and do shift the curve.

We will never know why the body temperature of the Loroi is lower than ours, unless the Soia left a note somewhere.

[Tamri]

Dude reading your posts is like, pass me some of that shit and try explaining that again.

As already said, my English is poor, especially when you need to communicate in a rather complicated topic. And I need to use crutches like the Google translator and dictionaries.

The main question was, why Loroi created with such a low body temperature. The argument was that the lower body temperature requires less energy for its maintenance. But in set with less energy consumption comprise is very high sensitivity to fluctuations in temperature and has a number of limitations, mainly related to higher mental activity. In the justification cited examples of systems to neutralize this disadvantage, but their implementation and "merging" with the active biochemistry anyway out harder than banal increase in optimal body temperature at ten degrees.

If we start from the idea that Soia nothing do just for nothing, it had some meaning, for us, unfortunately, unknown.

[Suederwind]

Hm... The next questions might sound a bit stupid, sorry in advance.
Do Loroi collect historical items that are not of Soia origin, especially of their own? Or are those things considered disposable?
Do they show such items in museums or public spaces for everyone to see, or are they keept in some Listel ivory tower under locks and bars?

[Tamri]

Perhaps a bit of a strange question:

What do the names Lorai metropolises respectively Deinar, Perrein and Taben? Well, kind of like our "Earth" means "the land / soil".