Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Sweforce]

It was not until the development of the caste system, which allowed even the hunter-gatherers to control their own population growth, and the development of iron working, which allowed the settlements to better defend what they had built, that civilization was able to take root and break the cycle.

Is it known what happened on that particular cycle that pushed barbarians to adopt a caste system?

It seems that this over population issue with the barbarians is a tragedy of the commons type scenario that generally can't be resolved without some foresight (or knowledge of the past), jolly old co-operation, and maybe a higher authority to keep all parties in line.

These elements seem to be in short supply at the time.

At some point some hunter gatherers may have figured out that protecting the farmers (for a price) was more beneficial in the long run. Especially when the farmesrs start to crank out more advanced weapons to arms them with then the other roaming bands had available.

[JQBogus]

At some point some hunter gatherers may have figured out that protecting the farmers (for a price) was more beneficial in the long run. Especially when the farmesrs start to crank out more advanced weapons to arms them with then the other roaming bands had available.

So the farmers become the civilian castes, and the HG's become the military ones?

[dragoongfa]

At some point some hunter gatherers may have figured out that protecting the farmers (for a price) was more beneficial in the long run. Especially when the farmesrs start to crank out more advanced weapons to arms them with then the other roaming bands had available.

So the farmers become the civilian castes, and the HG's become the military ones?

Probably it was 50/50, with time the farmers would get the infrastructure to make them dominant weapon producers while the hunter gatherers would have their numbers and survival skills. When things would stabilize both groups would intermingle before setting down the castes properly.

[Absalom]

Judging from India, several castes may have even originated within/as specific tribes, too.

[Suederwind]

After reading a bit about the Indian caste system I wonder: are there any Loroi that are not in a military or civilian caste and what is their stand in Loroi society? Is there something like an "untouchable" caste in Loroi society, like the Indian "Paria" or "Harijan"?

[Arioch]

Is it known what happened on that particular cycle that pushed barbarians to adopt a caste system?

It didn't happen all at once in one cycle, but slowly over time; people began to specialize for different tasks. A key specialization which accelerated progress was the development of record-keeping specialists (the ancestors of the modern Ninzadi and Listel) who could provide some continuity to build on. There were varying approaches for keeping these specialists alive during population crashes; in the Daiam peninsula (which was somewhat isolated from the mainland), the record-keepers were male and exempted from fighting. In the region that would eventually become Arran, the record-keepers were females who lived outside the tribes as hermits in the cavelike ruins in the mountains.

After reading a bit about the Indian caste system I wonder: are there any Loroi that are not in a military or civilian caste and what is their stand in Loroi society? Is there something like an "untouchable" caste in Loroi society, like the Indian "Paria" or "Harijan"?

There's no direct equivalent to India's "untouchables." The civilians are in general an underclass, but not to that degree.

There are those who can't or won't participate in the Loroi cultural system, but unless they are located on the fringes of inhabited areas, they probably won't survive long. There are still nomadic traditionalists who still live as hunter-gatherers in wild areas, but they usually follow a caste system of their own, which is often more strict and harsh than the modern version.

[Sweforce]

I cannot see any reason why there could not be some individual loroi that have practically abandoned the cast system altogether while living with the unions allies as various specialists. In the longrun, if security permits (the war ends?) and regular communication with humanity space are opened up some may end up here.

[Arioch]

I cannot see any reason why there could not be some individual loroi that have practically abandoned the cast system altogether while living with the unions allies as various specialists. In the longrun, if security permits (the war ends?) and regular communication with humanity space are opened up some may end up here.

Depends on what you mean by "abandon the caste system." If a Loroi individual can somehow arrange passage to an alien world, then sure, she can live out her days in an alien society under alien rules instead of the Loroi caste system. But she won't any longer be a part of Loroi society, and she won't ever be able to reproduce.

[Suederwind]

There's no direct equivalent to India's "untouchables." The civilians are in general an underclass, but not to that degree.

I didn't mean the civilians in general, but maybe there is some kind of civilian caste that most other Loroi try to avoid?

Can Loroi be cast out of their caste, as some form of punishment?

[Arioch]

There's no direct equivalent to India's "untouchables." The civilians are in general an underclass, but not to that degree.

I didn't mean the civilians in general, but maybe there is some kind of civilian caste that most other Loroi try to avoid?

Not really. Social status does vary within the civilian class (aerospace engineers are higher status than sewage handlers) but it's a question of degree rather than a sharp division. The lowest of the low would probably be the work gangs that local governments use to employ criminals or people who have fallen through the cracks of the system, but even this is not comparable to the social exclusion of India's untouchables.

Can Loroi be cast out of their caste, as some form of punishment?

Not usually. A civilian guild operates similar to a company, with many levels of potential promotion and demotion within, including low-level menial jobs for those who are less skilled or less industrious, but there is a social contract between the guild and workers, and so once accepted into a guild, members cannot normally be expelled. Demotions and/or reductions in or suspensions of benefits or pay (if any) can be used as a form of punishment for incompetence or insubordination. In extreme examples of guild members who refuse to work or are actively disruptive, psychological intervention or criminal prosecution may become necessary.

A civilian individual can (under normal circumstances) voluntarily quit a guild, but she will then need to either apply to a new guild, start her own business, or emigrate. Otherwise, she'll end up in a work gang.

Unlike civilians, warriors can be expelled from military castes similar to a dishonorable discharge.

[sunphoenix]

So.. I know this is a hard to answer question.. but how psychologically different are Loroi females from human females?

I would think they are close but not exact in that human females clearly do not come for a society where one's thoughts and emotions are clearly evident to anyone paying attention.. but human females do tend to be more empathic than human males. Can't tell how many times I may be holding something bothering or concerning me inside and quiet ...only to be asked by a female friend or coworker, "ok Roger.. what's bothering you...?", frankly it amazing me sometimes... maybe I'm just easy to read I don't know?

Maybe a better question would be how similar is Loroi female psychology compared to human female psychology?

That might be an unfair question to you Arioch considering your a male... though I might hope you keep a close female consultant to bounce ideas off for interactions between our protagonist Alex and his female 'saviors'... among the Loroi.

Answer as best you can I guess... 'shrug'

I'm just kinda curious how earth women would view the attitudes & motivations of Loroi warrior women and how the blue-blooded alien amazons might view the same in their feisty round-eared sisters of Terra?

Though, I guess that really depends upon which 'earth women' you are talking about huh? Let's just say for question purposes we're assuming the earth women of the TCA~ that the sexual revolution of the 60's has pretty much brought most of mother earth's women up to at least to similar the freedoms and opportunities of at least the Americas of the 2000's...

Hmm.. it occurred to me that's a VERY broad question.. I'll narrow it down...

- Views on relationships with men {specifically... their views on the attitudes in managing, trusting, interacting, and romance with men}
- Views on child-rearing
- Views on career pursuits military or civilian
- View on fighting for self-defense or defense of others {children, family, friends} [would a Loroi females find human women weak or not independent enough or willing enough to fight for themselves... that sort of thing]

[dragoongfa]

Giving my two cents here:

Psychological outlook goes hand in hand with one's physiology, natural and social environments.

Human women are vastly different in all of the above categories to their Loroi counterpart: The Loroi are natural telepaths, don't suffer from the 'red curse' and the mood swings that come with it, outnumber their weaker male counterparts handily and are expected to live for 400 years, most of which youthful and still being able to bear a child.

In contrast human women don't have telepathy, have mood swings (that may be extreme), are in equal numbers with physically stronger males, their life expectancy is about 80 years old (modern standards of advanced nations) and their child bearing abilities usually come to an end at their early 40s.

Socially the two are in complete different situations. Human women are traditionally protected, it's a biological imperative that women are kept out of harms way by the stronger and expendable men; this is blindingly obvious even on western societies where ALL of the physically dangerous jobs are dominated by men in almost 100% ratios. This protection paradigm also seeps into the judicial system, both familial and criminal branches; were women are given obvious preferential treatment that may border to the miscarry of justice at the expense of all notions of egalitarianism between the sexes.

Loroi on the other hand are the physically dominant sex, are expected to risk life and limb when working and are the de-facto warriors of their society.

With the above in mind, I don't think that the psychological outlook of the two is similar at all.

[Victor_D]

Giving my two cents here:
(...)
Socially the two are in complete different situations. Human women are traditionally protected, it's a biological imperative that women are kept out of harms way by the stronger and expendable men; this is blindingly obvious even on western societies where ALL of the physically dangerous jobs are dominated by men in almost 100% ratios. This protection paradigm also seeps into the judicial system, both familial and criminal branches; were women are given obvious preferential treatment that may border to the miscarry of justice at the expense of all notions of egalitarianism between the sexes.

Loroi on the other hand are the physically dominant sex, are expected to risk life and limb when working and are the de-facto warriors of their society.

It would be hilarious to observe the results if the two societies ever met and mingled. Despite all the feminist progress in the past decades and centuries, I think human women still expect to be treated in a certain "preferential" way by human men and human men instinctively do so; this is deeply psychologically ingrained in us given that it was the winning evolutionary/social strategy for countless millennia. Loroi women, on the other hand, would feel no compulsion to treat human female in the way they are used to be treated (protect them from danger, try to be helpful, considerate, supportive etc.). If anything, they'd instinctively treat them the same Loroi women treat other Loroi women (whereas they might be just weirded out by the human males' reactions to them). Hilarity would ensue.

[dragoongfa]

Giving my two cents here:
(...)
Socially the two are in complete different situations. Human women are traditionally protected, it's a biological imperative that women are kept out of harms way by the stronger and expendable men; this is blindingly obvious even on western societies where ALL of the physically dangerous jobs are dominated by men in almost 100% ratios. This protection paradigm also seeps into the judicial system, both familial and criminal branches; were women are given obvious preferential treatment that may border to the miscarry of justice at the expense of all notions of egalitarianism between the sexes.

Loroi on the other hand are the physically dominant sex, are expected to risk life and limb when working and are the de-facto warriors of their society.

It would be hilarious to observe the results if the two societies ever met and mingled. Despite all the feminist progress in the past decades and centuries, I think human women still expect to be treated in a certain "preferential" way by human men and human men instinctively do so; this is deeply psychologically ingrained in us given that it was the winning evolutionary/social strategy for countless millennia. Loroi women, on the other hand, would feel no compulsion to treat human female in the way they are used to be treated (protect them from danger, try to be helpful, considerate, supportive etc.). If anything, they'd instinctively treat them the same Loroi women treat other Loroi women (whereas they might be just weirded out by the human males' reactions to them). Hilarity would ensue.

I think that it would be an equal measure hilarious and terrifying.

Loroi males are instinctively and socially protected and taken care of. Protected by females from females (and the extremely rare crazed male).

Human women are also instinctively and socially protected, if not taken care of. Protected by men from men and women alike; whomever has seen a proper fight between women can nod in understanding for the later, women are vicious when at each others throat.

Putting the above together? Lets say that certain boundaries will be thoroughly tested and most certainly broken.

[novius]

I think it would very much depend on how close a kinship Loroi see towards humans. And vice versa. Humans may be very much "enlightened" in that age, but Loroi do have some racial superiority complex, muchly based on their belief that they're the "chosen race", and showing traits of racism.

Face it, it's not that long ago in human history that people with a dark complexion were considered 'sub-human', and thus not deserving human rights or common decency. Okay, Loroi do have extended contact to other humanoid species (Barsam, for example), but I don't think they'd extend that many social mores towards them, especially traits which are ultimately stemmed in their gender disparity and reproduction.

I do underline my hypothesis with how Alex is treated in the first panels. Even without him considering himself being 'prisoner of war' they did come off as rather standoffish to downright hostile at first, and then with a good measure of disregard since he got stuffed in the cell not once but twice, with little care and consideration.

So yes, I think the typical Loroi female might not extend the same courtesies to alien males, including humans, regardless how close they are in appearance, maybe even if they consider humans to be an attractive species despite their differences in appearance.

I think towards human women it may be more clear. Even if Loroi may not see humans as prospective mating partners (why should they, since Loroi cannot reproduce with humans, and that may be the only thing that matters in their practical worldview) they may take a competitive stance towards human women. First and foremost it would be a test of strength and mettle, and second it could be the hidden fear that these alien females may poach upon their few and precious males.

But exceptions may exist. While Loroi females as a whole might not feel the instinctive need to safeguard and protect human men, Beryl for example did warm up towards Alex, though in typical Listel fashion it might be more a meeting of intellects, and the two of them did sort of see eye to eye on this part.

[Victor_D]

(...)
But exceptions may exist. While Loroi females as a whole might not feel the instinctive need to safeguard and protect human men, Beryl for example did warm up towards Alex, though in typical Listel fashion it might be more a meeting of intellects, and the two of them did sort of see eye to eye on this part.

Well, depending on the Loroi sex drive (AFAIK access to males has to be earned in Loroi society; these are mating encounters, evidently aimed at producing offspring, but I guess it's not unpleasant), they might either disregard human males completely (instinctively viewing them as weak and useless and alien), or they may see them as a source of cheap unregulated "bed fun", without the risk of conceiving some weird mutant children. I picture it a bit as human sailors on leave; there is a reason port cities historically were full of brothels. Loroi female sex drive may be naturally more repressed, but what is to say they wouldn't be tempted to have a bit of fun, especially if they don't need to work for years to earn it (as I imagine human males would not mind ).

[Dahak]

Loroi ships could be so nicely designed because they are likely the last home their Loroi crew will ever know.

I know that Human military planers would do so too, if they could afford it. For morale reasons.
But also Human planners keep in their head that the ship in a war will likely mean that it is home for the soldiers for the remainders of their life.
But, more space means being a bigger target. Your shields stretch thinner, and the chance for your armour to leak air grows.

Tempest is 750m long with a crew of 800. Bellarmine is 190m long with a crew of 80. That measn even if Tempest didn't have a significantly wider profile than Bellarmine it would be over 60 times the volume and therefore likely mass. Based on their comparitive shapes Tempest looks to be closer to 90 to 120 tiems the volume.

Which implies Bellarmine was somewhere around 10-15Ktons mass assuming Human and Loroi Spaceship tech is of a similar average density.

Loroi are roughly the same size as Humans so even if Tempest had 5 times as much space for living spaces per crew member it would be using a lower fraction of its volume than Bellarmine.

[Blu3wolf]

Tempest is 750m long with a crew of 800. Bellarmine is 190m long with a crew of 80. That measn even if Tempest didn't have a significantly wider profile than Bellarmine it would be over 60 times the volume and therefore likely mass. Based on their comparitive shapes Tempest looks to be closer to 90 to 120 tiems the volume.

Which implies Bellarmine was somewhere around 10-15Ktons mass assuming Human and Loroi Spaceship tech is of a similar average density.

Loroi are roughly the same size as Humans so even if Tempest had 5 times as much space for living spaces per crew member it would be using a lower fraction of its volume than Bellarmine.

Not necessarily very safe assumptions, there.

[Dahak]

Tempest is 750m long with a crew of 800. Bellarmine is 190m long with a crew of 80. That measn even if Tempest didn't have a significantly wider profile than Bellarmine it would be over 60 times the volume and therefore likely mass. Based on their comparitive shapes Tempest looks to be closer to 90 to 120 tiems the volume.

Which implies Bellarmine was somewhere around 10-15Ktons mass assuming Human and Loroi Spaceship tech is of a similar average density.

Loroi are roughly the same size as Humans so even if Tempest had 5 times as much space for living spaces per crew member it would be using a lower fraction of its volume than Bellarmine.

Not necessarily very safe assumptions, there.

What's the second assumption? Average spaceship density being similar isn't that unsafe and is irelevant to the final conclusion. Sizes and crews are in the ship lists. Tempest has a larger average crossectional area to length ration than Bellarmine so doing the numbers on the assumption they have identical crossectional area to length ratios is conservative (Which gives Tempest having just over 61.5 times the volume of Bellarmine).

over 61.5 times the volume and 10 times the crew means the total crew spaces need to be more than 6x the volume per crewmember to take up a higher percentage of the ships volume in total. So 5x makes crew spaces take up a smaller percentage of volume of the Hull.

I'm not saying whether I think the Loroi do assign more space on a proportional basis to the habitable bits of the ship than the Humans, just that they have a lot of margin to play with since their ships have significantly fewer crewbeings per hundred cubic meters of hull volume, but it looks like they don't need to to get a ship that feels more spacious and it is quite possible they assign a smaller percentage of the hull to crew accessable spaces and get that feeling. Because they don't have as proportionally high crews.

It doesn't say anything about how those spaces are divided up, the Loroi could well be assigning similar volumes for the crews bunk spaces and using the extra volume for rooms with giant statues and meditation gardens.

So what unsafe assumptions am I making?

[Southern Cross]

You haven't factored the Loroi's force field generators into your calculations. That's something the Bellarmine doesn't have.