Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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SVlad
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by SVlad »

Sweforce wrote:Star Wars "The return of the Jedi" shows us a Super Star Destroyer taken out by a fighter crashing into the bridge.
The Tempest command center is located deep inside the ship. So if something will manage to blow it, it would have already blown a through-hole in the middle of the ship. The ship will already be doomed with such damage.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Sweforce wrote:Do the Tempest and/or other capital ships have auxiliary bridges reade to take over in case of an emergency?
Yes, of course, there are multiple locations from which a ship can be controlled if necessary. The consoles are just computer terminals; if you have the right security access, almost any of them can be configured to run whatever function you need, or switch from "live" data to simulated data. Both of these features would be a requirement for any functioning warship; flexibility and redundancy are vital to survive a fight, because things are going to go wrong.
Sweforce wrote:Star Wars "The return of the Jedi" shows us a Super Star Destroyer taken out by a fighter crashing into the bridge. Perhaps they didn't have an auxiliary bridge or it just didn't have time to take over.
Aside from the absurdity of such a large vessel having no auxiliary control (and the bridge being placed in such a vulnerable position), even if the ship had lost control, there's nothing that should have made it suddenly veer to one side and drop out of the sky. It's just bad Hollywood writing.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

The only effect destroying the bridge has is potentially killing or incapacitating the command staff. As Arioch put in such an environment all computer consoles can be used to 'command' the ship if the bridge is completely out.

Take out the command staff however and the ship ends up having to leave the battlefield due to its inability to be properly commanded without staff that knows that battle plan and the various protocols regarding high level command and control.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

dragoongfa wrote:Take out the command staff however and the ship ends up having to leave the battlefield due to its inability to be properly commanded without staff that knows that battle plan and the various protocols regarding high level command and control.
The Loroi chain of command runs all the way to the bottom, so as long as the ship still has communication with the rest of the fleet, the unit should still be able to fight. However, as was mentioned, since the command center is located in the core of the ship, a hit that takes out the command staff is also going to leave the ship in a very sorry state.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

I didn't mean it in the chain of command sense but in the 'need to know' sense that must exist even in the Loroi military.

I doubt that the chief engineer of a Loroi warship knows the full details of the established battle plans of any engagement, so her just making sure that the damaged ship doesn't get in the way as it limps away is the best possible course of action she can be expected to take.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

dragoongfa wrote:I doubt that the chief engineer of a Loroi warship knows the full details of the established battle plans of any engagement, so her just making sure that the damaged ship doesn't get in the way as it limps away is the best possible course of action she can be expected to take.
I don't see that being a major problem when every ship in the fleet has real-time communication with the squadron or fleet commander.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

From my experience after a certain command threshold micromanaging the actions of a single unit draws attention away from the bigger picture.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

dragoongfa wrote:From my experience after a certain command threshold micromanaging the actions of a single unit draws attention away from the bigger picture.
There's a hierarchy of command in the fleet just as there is within a ship; a fleet commander doesn't have to micromanage individual ships any more than an army general has to issue movement orders to each individual soldier. In most fleet actions, the majority of ships will be maintaining formation on a lead vessel (usually the squadron flagship); the captains of escort ships usually have very clear instructions that come from the next higher level of command. There will rarely be anything secret about a ship's current instructions, and if there is, a quick answer can be got from that ship's immediate superior (usually the squadron flag).

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by JQBogus »

Arioch wrote:... even if the ship had lost control, there's nothing that should have made it suddenly veer to one side and drop out of the sky. It's just bad Hollywood writing.
I figure it must have been the helmsman getting his arms tangled in the ship's wheel as he fell over dead.

I mean, come on, this is a universe where they have manned, deck mounted laser cannons firing through holes cut in the side of the ship:
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

It is one of those things about heroic naval stories where brave and clever captains overcome impossible odds, but in terms of an engagement between fleets, I would expect many ship captains would be acting as a cog in the formation, without nearly as much freedom to act on their own as their Hollywood counterparts might have.

Which isn't to say that a competent commander isn't important, but the Loroi 51st strike group looks like they have at least three or four capable commanders ready to step up in the event that the fleet commander is killed or otherwise incapacitated.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Arioch wrote:Yes, of course, there are multiple locations from which a ship can be controlled if necessary. The consoles are just computer terminals; if you have the right security access, almost any of them can be configured to run whatever function you need, or switch from "live" data to simulated data. Both of these features would be a requirement for any functioning warship; flexibility and redundancy are vital to survive a fight, because things are going to go wrong.
I'd imagine that it would be highly suboptimal to be operating the ship from a location that wasn't designed for it, though - if nothing else, the consoles wouldn't be set up in a way as conductive to live operations. I mean, unless they had a designated simulator bridge, but you said they don't.

Actually, come to think of it, isn't a lot of Loroi training done on-the-job anyway? So they'd probably have a classroom of some sort on the ship? Or would they use some kind of multipurpose meeting room/briefing room/auditorium for that?
Arioch wrote:Aside from the absurdity of such a large vessel having no auxiliary control (and the bridge being placed in such a vulnerable position), even if the ship had lost control, there's nothing that should have made it suddenly veer to one side and drop out of the sky. It's just bad Hollywood writing.
Eeeeeeh, let's not be TOO hasty to call bad writing there. I mean, it COULD be, but I could see it being perfectly plausible, too:
Executor was operating very near to the surface of the Death Star II, which is so massive it has its own gravitational field. As such, the pilot was probably having to actively correct for this. Now, the pilot probably looked up in time to see the A-Wing coming, and quite naturally attempted to save his own life; veering hard towards the DSII, where its gravitational field would be pulling him, might just pull Executor far enough off-course to make the A-Wing impact to the side of the main bridge, thus saving the lives of the entire bridge crew, including himself. Unfortunately for him, the A-Wing's pilot was bound and determined to make his kamikaze run, and adjusted accordingly.

So now you have the ship, uncontrolled, very near to the surface of the DS2, veering hard towards it. The backup command staff don't have much time to correct things. If it takes them any appreciable amount of time at all to establish control, even just like, twenty seconds to put in their command codes and seize control of the vessel, they won't get control back in time to save the ship.

But the screenwriters didn't show us that.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr Bojangles »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Eeeeeeh, let's not be TOO hasty to call bad writing there. I mean, it COULD be, but I could see it being perfectly plausible, too:
Executor was operating very near to the surface of the Death Star II, which is so massive it has its own gravitational field. As such, the pilot was probably having to actively correct for this. Now, the pilot probably looked up in time to see the A-Wing coming, and quite naturally attempted to save his own life; veering hard towards the DSII, where its gravitational field would be pulling him, might just pull Executor far enough off-course to make the A-Wing impact to the side of the main bridge, thus saving the lives of the entire bridge crew, including himself. Unfortunately for him, the A-Wing's pilot was bound and determined to make his kamikaze run, and adjusted accordingly.

So now you have the ship, uncontrolled, very near to the surface of the DS2, veering hard towards it. The backup command staff don't have much time to correct things. If it takes them any appreciable amount of time at all to establish control, even just like, twenty seconds to put in their command codes and seize control of the vessel, they won't get control back in time to save the ship.

But the screenwriters didn't show us that.
But, the DS2, while huge, would probably have a gravitational mass similar to that of Ceres. The strength of its gravitational field should be negligible. Of course, the DS2 looks to have Earth-normal gravity internally and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that field extends beyond the hull. On the other hand, the Executor didn't appear to be in orbit, so it could've been holding station via repulsors and taking out the bridge really should not have stopped those working.

I'm pretty sure we can go down a pretty deep rabbit hole with this (in fact, I know we can :P)... So, not bad writing. Let's chalk it up to "drama" and the general tendency of Star Wars to completely ignore inconvenient things like physics.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

Mr Bojangles wrote:But, the DS2, while huge, would probably have a gravitational mass similar to that of Ceres. The strength of its gravitational field should be negligible. Of course, the DS2 looks to have Earth-normal gravity internally and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that field extends beyond the hull. On the other hand, the Executor didn't appear to be in orbit, so it could've been holding station via repulsors and taking out the bridge really should not have stopped those working.

I'm pretty sure we can go down a pretty deep rabbit hole with this (in fact, I know we can :P)... So, not bad writing. Let's chalk it up to "drama" and the general tendency of Star Wars to completely ignore inconvenient things like physics.
A fan writer could of course have the crew on the auxiliary bridge be rebel sympathisers that have infiltrated that station and they actively kamikazed the whole ship when they gained control.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Absalom »

Sweforce wrote:So the loroi are doing what the humans are doing of economical reasons. Sometimes running a scenario could be dangerous if something real should happen. Do the Tempest and/or other capital ships have auxiliary bridges reade to take over in case of an emergency? If so thease can be used for training in the field and naturally save the ship if the main bridge get taken out. Star Wars "The return of the Jedi" shows us a Super Star Destroyer taken out by a fighter crashing into the bridge. Perhaps they didn't have an auxiliary bridge or it just didn't have time to take over. Still it is nice to have backup systems. There are references in Star Trek that the entire ship can be operated from engineering.
That vulnerability was a little odd, yes. Really, there should have been a "oversight bridge" operated from the most secure security facility (you have to go past the marines to get to it), overseeing which of several "operational bridges" were actually granted operational authorization: goodness knows that even most of the prequel ships were big enough for that.

The exposed bridges aren't completely nonsensical, but really they should be pilot stations, used by pilots while operating in confined docking facilities, not primary command structures.
Sweforce wrote:With networking options I could see the Tempest being run from the cockpit of the Highland Shuttle so an auxiliary bridge could be run from another ship even.
Hopefully such a thing would only be used in drydock & similar situations, and would require a cable connection (even if just between two jacks preinstalled in the same access panel) to actually be possible.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Absalom »

Mr Bojangles wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Eeeeeeh, let's not be TOO hasty to call bad writing there. I mean, it COULD be, but I could see it being perfectly plausible, too:
Executor was operating very near to the surface of the Death Star II, which is so massive it has its own gravitational field. As such, the pilot was probably having to actively correct for this. Now, the pilot probably looked up in time to see the A-Wing coming, and quite naturally attempted to save his own life; veering hard towards the DSII, where its gravitational field would be pulling him, might just pull Executor far enough off-course to make the A-Wing impact to the side of the main bridge, thus saving the lives of the entire bridge crew, including himself. Unfortunately for him, the A-Wing's pilot was bound and determined to make his kamikaze run, and adjusted accordingly.

So now you have the ship, uncontrolled, very near to the surface of the DS2, veering hard towards it. The backup command staff don't have much time to correct things. If it takes them any appreciable amount of time at all to establish control, even just like, twenty seconds to put in their command codes and seize control of the vessel, they won't get control back in time to save the ship.

But the screenwriters didn't show us that.
But, the DS2, while huge, would probably have a gravitational mass similar to that of Ceres. The strength of its gravitational field should be negligible. Of course, the DS2 looks to have Earth-normal gravity internally and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that field extends beyond the hull. On the other hand, the Executor didn't appear to be in orbit, so it could've been holding station via repulsors and taking out the bridge really should not have stopped those working.
Probably they were using repulsors or the equivalent, but that doesn't counter his point. Whether maneuvering by adjusting repulsors or engines, if you adjust your net thrust vector instead of adjusting relative positions in a PID or similar loop (and the vector is probably faster...) then you crash into the DS2 regardless because that's what your instructions to the computer say to do.

I think, though, that engine thrust is the more likely possibility. I don't know if the impact speed of the Executor has been worked out, but if I recall correctly it should have been pretty high, very possibly higher than Earth-like gravity could have produced, so my money's on active maneuvering.
Mr Bojangles wrote:I'm pretty sure we can go down a pretty deep rabbit hole with this (in fact, I know we can :P)... So, not bad writing. Let's chalk it up to "drama" and the general tendency of Star Wars to completely ignore inconvenient things like physics.
Physics? Star Wars has physics? :P

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Krulle »

Sure, the gravity pulling the elements "down" when filming the explosion....
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr Bojangles »

Absalom wrote:Probably they were using repulsors or the equivalent, but that doesn't counter his point. Whether maneuvering by adjusting repulsors or engines, if you adjust your net thrust vector instead of adjusting relative positions in a PID or similar loop (and the vector is probably faster...) then you crash into the DS2 regardless because that's what your instructions to the computer say to do.

I think, though, that engine thrust is the more likely possibility. I don't know if the impact speed of the Executor has been worked out, but if I recall correctly it should have been pretty high, very possibly higher than Earth-like gravity could have produced, so my money's on active maneuvering.
You could be right; your explanation is plausible. Or, we might not even be wrong; it is Star Wars, after all. Down the rabbit hole we go! :D
Absalom wrote:Physics? Star Wars has physics? :P
For certain values of "physics"? :P

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Arioch, strange question:

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Do you happen to have a story for this lady? For some reason, I can't shake the feeling that just offscreen, on the other side of the "camera," is the Maian equivalent of a pickup truck with someone close to Ms. Fieldstrider in the back, wielding the camera.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Arioch, strange question:

Image

Do you happen to have a story for this lady? For some reason, I can't shake the feeling that just offscreen, on the other side of the "camera," is the Maian equivalent of a pickup truck with someone close to Ms. Fieldstrider in the back, wielding the camera.
That's Spiral, who is a native of Maia. She's wearing an outfit that is typical of a juvenile warrior; presumably this was some time during her training on Maia.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Hālian »

Will civilian loroi (1) appear (2) factor into the story at all?

What about any of the races listed in the Insider but not yet shown?
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