Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

But now that I've learned my lesson, wouldn't it still make sense for them to be hard troopers for the simple fact that their small craft could now undergo higher accelerations.

Gunboats are large enough to have inertial dampers. The acceleration of a gunboat is limited by available engine power, not by the G-tolerance of the crew.

Also, I need to learn to separate my subjects but would they still conceivably all become cyborgs for efficiency reasons. (a joule of electrical energy should take less effort to make accessible than a joule of food energy.) and possibly better ship-pilot interface.

Cyborgs still need to eat. Brains and other organs run on sugars and fats and proteins, not electricity.

I don't think the force theory of government would work for Loroi either. A group of Loroi, I feel, should be able to coordinate themselves better at an emotional scale; considering every individual can know how every other individual feels, you can't lock a crowd in fear in he hopes that no one is brave enough to speak up and start the chain reaction (I'm thinking settlement wide revolts happening on a regular basis), and when you notice that 98 percent of the population are peasants, the skill of soldiers seems to matter much less.

I don't see how telepathy makes an armed and armored, trained warrior any less scary to an unarmed, untrained peasant. And let's keep in mind that some of these warriors have dangerous telekinetic and telepathic abilities. Telepathy may allow the peasants to coordinate better, but it gives the same ability to the warriors. And again, in a society without secrets, the advantage goes to those in power.

Peasants were about 90 percent of the population in medieval Europe, but peasant revolts were rare. It's hard for farmers to defeat well-equipped, well-armed, professional soldiers. Even if a peasant mob managed to succeed in overpowering the local lord and his retainers, they still had to worry about the neighboring lords and the monarch (if any), who weren't going to just stand by and watch. The few peasant revolts that did happen -- even large-scale ones like the 1381 Wat Tyler Rebellion in England -- almost always ended in the defeat of the rebels and the execution of their leaders.

The ancient Loroi civilian class was usually much smaller than 90 percent of the population, sometimes being not much more than half of the population. Loroi require less food than humans, and members of the warrior class were often put to work in a manner similar to the Roman legionaries.

You seem to make the assumption that a peasant class will always be poorly treated and will always hate their masters and seek to overthrow them. This wasn't true in human history and I don't see any reason why it should be so in Loroi history. The warrior-peasant relationship isn't entirely one-sided; in return for their labor, peasants receive some security and protection in a dangerous world. There were cruel, hated lords, but also fair and reasonable lords who were well-liked by their subjects.

[Game Theory]

Gunboats are large enough to have inertial dampers. The acceleration of a gunboat is limited by available engine power, not by the G-tolerance of the crew.

Wouldn't this mean they could do even faster accelerations, having hard troopers seems to increase performance or saves energy on the internal dampeners.

Cyborgs still need to eat. Brains and other organs run on sugars and fats and proteins, not electricity.

Yes but if they were humans (I don't know much about Umaki biology so I'm using humans) and they just introduce manufactured sugars and proteins into the "blood stream" of the brain they could at least take their food manufatruring down by 4/5, maybe even more because you could just manufacture the nutrients and dissolve them in water. Not to mention lacking some body parts like an exoskeleton would cut down of your need of a lot of vitamins an minerals.

Also, if the loroi have fighters, why don't they use cyborgs, is it a lack of expertise in the area, is it not possible with their brains (do they lose telepathy when they move out) or do they just not want or need the procedure.

Peasants were about 90 percent of the population in medieval Europe, but peasant revolts were rare. It's hard for farmers to defeat well-equipped, well-armed, professional soldiers. Even if a peasant mob managed to succeed in overpowering the local lord and his retainers, they still had to worry about the neighboring lords and the monarch (if any), who weren't going to just stand by and watch. The few peasant revolts that did happen -- even large-scale ones like the 1381 Wat Tyler Rebellion in England -- almost always ended in the defeat of the rebels and the execution of their leaders.

That is true, but these situations always seem to be distorted when I look at them because a lot of the time when peasants lose, they are facing an army that is smaller than them in numbers, but larger in terms of the entire population. All peasants vs All Soldiers I feel would end in a peasant victory, but when you can direct a sizable force to a specific portion of the rebellion and move on from there using your superior position to play a tactical war than you win. I feel that the conditions that led to the Wat Tyler rebellion would not have been necessary for a similarly sized Lori rebellion because of their ability to better communicate and therefore coordinate. I know the soldiers would have been able to coordinate even better, but I am not saying this as proof of the peasants ability to stand up in a fight, but to start the revolt in the first place.

You seem to make the assumption that a peasant class will always be poorly treated and will always hate their masters and seek to overthrow them. This wasn't true in human history and I don't see any reason why it should be so in Loroi history. The warrior-peasant relationship isn't entirely one-sided; in return for their labor, peasants receive some security and protection in a dangerous world. There were cruel, hated lords, but also fair and reasonable lords who were well-liked by their subjects.

I didn't mean to give that impression, I just meant that given a peasants place on the social ladder they are liable to be treated worse. By "treated worse" I don't mean that the rulers are sadists that just want to make their lives miserable, but when hard times hit, feeding your soldiers might seem a bit more important than giving that extra bit of food to your peasants, who don't need as much food to do their jobs adequately. And they will be the hardest hit during a famine, but now that I think about it, the intrinsic trust present between Lori could work to the lords advantage when she tells them "we will all get killed and enslaved by nation Y if you don't give extra rations, sorry that's just how it is" and the peasants take that to be completely true. So I suppose that worked itself out as I was debating.

[Game Theory]

It kind of depends on how inertial dampeners work in the setting. Are they incremental, meaning they simply subtract their rating from the perceived acceleration effects within the hull, such that the crew of a ship with 25g dampers that accelerates at 30g feels 5g? OR are they 'all or nothing' such that the crew of a ship with 25g dampers that accelerates at 30g blows their dampers and then gets slammed with all 30g?

If it is the latter, the fact that a cyborg might be able to take 10g instead of 4g is not really a relevant advantage to the cyborg.

I'm not an expert, but a well designed body should be able to take more than 30g. if, for example, the "body" was a room sized fluid filled cavity in the ship, than you could just put the brain in a box and the box in the room. attach some springs to the box and it wouldn't accelerate much even if the ship can turn on a dime. This could save power and space on internal dampeners if nothing else.

as for the inertial dampeners

I think the machine just reduces an objects inertia so while things inside might accelerate at the same rate, they would feel less force.

[Arioch]

Gunboats are large enough to have inertial dampers. The acceleration of a gunboat is limited by available engine power, not by the G-tolerance of the crew.

Wouldn't this mean they could do even faster accelerations, having hard troopers seems to increase performance or saves energy on the internal dampeners.

The energy required to operate inertial dampers is very small compared to the fantastic amount of energy that it requires to accelerate a starship massing several hundred thousand tonnes at 30g.

Cyborgs still need to eat. Brains and other organs run on sugars and fats and proteins, not electricity.

Yes but if they were humans (I don't know much about Umaki biology so I'm using humans) and they just introduce manufactured sugars and proteins into the "blood stream" of the brain they could at least take their food manufatruring down by 4/5, maybe even more because you could just manufacture the nutrients and dissolve them in water. Not to mention lacking some body parts like an exoskeleton would cut down of your need of a lot of vitamins an minerals.

Those manufactured sugars and proteins can be ingested just as easily by a normal organism as by a cyborg. I'm not sure what you base your 4/5 cost reduction estimation on; combat cyborgs are very expensive to produce and much more expensive to maintain than ordinary biological Umiak. Living bodies are wondrous mechanisms that mostly maintain themselves with proper feeding, whereas cyborg bodies are ordinary machines that require constant maintenance and care.

Also, if the loroi have fighters, why don't they use cyborgs, is it a lack of expertise in the area, is it not possible with their brains (do they lose telepathy when they move out) or do they just not want or need the procedure.

Loroi society does not approve of mutilating its members without good reason. They do not feel that a cyborg pilot has any significant advantages over an ordinary pilot that would justify such mutilation. Loroi acceleration tolerance using a liquid breathing medium is more than sufficient to tolerate the fastest acceleration that any Loroi fighter can produce, and one doesn't have to be a cyborg to use a neural control mechanism.

That is true, but these situations always seem to be distorted when I look at them because a lot of the time when peasants lose, they are facing an army that is smaller than them in numbers, but larger in terms of the entire population. All peasants vs All Soldiers I feel would end in a peasant victory, but when you can direct a sizable force to a specific portion of the rebellion and move on from there using your superior position to play a tactical war than you win.

The problem here is that you're never going to get "all peasants" to rebel, because not everyone will agree that a rebellion is a good idea, regardless of how well everyone can communicate. In the American Revolution, only about a third of the colonial population was in favor of rebellion; a roughly equal number were loyal to the Crown, and the rest didn't want to have anything to do with it.

I feel that the conditions that led to the Wat Tyler rebellion would not have been necessary for a similarly sized Lori rebellion because of their ability to better communicate and therefore coordinate. I know the soldiers would have been able to coordinate even better, but I am not saying this as proof of the peasants ability to stand up in a fight, but to start the revolt in the first place.

Again, the problem here is that telepathy makes these preparations very hard to keep secret, and the moment that the plans are leaked, the warriors (who are already organized) can strike preemptively at the rebel leaders. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but it would be really tough, and not any easier for Loroi peasants than for human ones.

[JQBogus]

The spring idea would work for reducing the g force on the brain-box from very rapid jolts of acceleration, but wouldn't do much to counter sustained acceleration.

As to the liquid bath thing... I think the liquid has to be the same density as what it is supporting, and the more of a difference there is, the less well it works. The problem is that things tend to be made up of multiple materials of different densities. In the case of a brain in a box, the gray matter probably has a different density than the white matter, and both are different from the encephalitic fluid.

Also, while a fluid is not compressible contained exactly in a sturdy shell will not compress or deform, it will change pressure if subjected to acceleration. it will experience a change in pressure. Being in a liquid bath in a ship that accelerates at 30g for 8 hours is, I think, the equivalent of a diver spending 8 hours at a depth of about 1000 feet. I suspect the blood oxygenating machine will have to change how it works depending on the pressure the brain it is supplying is under, and I suspect that the brain would have to undergo lengthy decompression after the acceleration is over to avoid having bubbles form in it. On the other hand, maybe one could have a pressurizing machine that keeps the brain under a constant high pressure, kicking in when the ship is not under acceleration, and easing off when it is. Anyone know what the effects (if any) are on a brain from being under extremely high pressure for very long stretches of time? I'd also imagine that having a ship full of devices that have to maintain the same pressure as a high pressure steam boiler constantly would be something of a maintenance nightmare. It might be worth it, it might not.

Lastly, as to how the inertial dampeners work... unless Arioch speaks, we really can't know if they subtract, divide, or entirely eliminate within their capacity.

[Game Theory]

The spring idea would work for reducing the g force on the brain-box from very rapid jolts of acceleration, but wouldn't do much to counter sustained acceleration.

I am under the assumption that most of the important high accelerations a ship undergoes will be when turning, and so temporary. I also feel that a brain alone will be able to undergo higher accelerations than a body (assuming you provide adequate padding).

As to the liquid bath thing... I think the liquid has to be the same density as what it is supporting, and the more of a difference there is, the less well it works. The problem is that things tend to be made up of multiple materials of different densities. In the case of a brain in a box, the gray matter probably has a different density than the white matter, and both are different from the encephalitic fluid.

I was actually thinking of using both springs and fluid, and I don't think that the liquid has to be the same density if you also have the springs to put it back in place.

Also, while a fluid is not compressible contained exactly in a sturdy shell will not compress or deform, it will change pressure if subjected to acceleration. it will experience a change in pressure. Being in a liquid bath in a ship that accelerates at 30g for 8 hours is, I think, the equivalent of a diver spending 8 hours at a depth of about 1000 feet. I suspect the blood oxygenating machine will have to change how it works depending on the pressure the brain it is supplying is under, and I suspect that the brain would have to undergo lengthy decompression after the acceleration is over to avoid having bubbles form in it. On the other hand, maybe one could have a pressurizing machine that keeps the brain under a constant high pressure, kicking in when the ship is not under acceleration, and easing off when it is. Anyone know what the effects (if any) are on a brain from being under extremely high pressure for very long stretches of time? I'd also imagine that having a ship full of devices that have to maintain the same pressure as a high pressure steam boiler constantly would be something of a maintenance nightmare. It might be worth it, it might not.

What if you only have fluid outside the box, and the inside has padding, the only fluid would be the blood like solution going through the veins. I thought humans needed pressurized air because we breath through lungs, wouldn't simply having the perfect amount of oxygen delivered to you through your blood stream negate all of that?

I always felt that OCD umaki would have no trouble maintaining complex machinery, and if it's built well it shouldn't need much maintenance as you probably have computers controlling the pressure.

[Game Theory]

Those manufactured sugars and proteins can be ingested just as easily by a normal organism as by a cyborg. I'm not sure what you base your 4/5 cost reduction estimation on; combat cyborgs are very expensive to produce and much more expensive to maintain than ordinary biological Umiak. Living bodies are wondrous mechanisms that mostly maintain themselves with proper feeding, whereas cyborg bodies are ordinary machines that require constant maintenance and care.

I based it off the percentage of the bodies energy the human brain uses to run, I suppose I thought if their tech level allowed for constant upkeep of planet bound hard troopers their robot bodies would be of the self repairing sort.

[Arioch]

As to the liquid bath thing... I think the liquid has to be the same density as what it is supporting, and the more of a difference there is, the less well it works. The problem is that things tend to be made up of multiple materials of different densities. In the case of a brain in a box, the gray matter probably has a different density than the white matter, and both are different from the encephalitic fluid.

Also, while a fluid is not compressible contained exactly in a sturdy shell will not compress or deform, it will change pressure if subjected to acceleration. it will experience a change in pressure. Being in a liquid bath in a ship that accelerates at 30g for 8 hours is, I think, the equivalent of a diver spending 8 hours at a depth of about 1000 feet. I suspect the blood oxygenating machine will have to change how it works depending on the pressure the brain it is supplying is under, and I suspect that the brain would have to undergo lengthy decompression after the acceleration is over to avoid having bubbles form in it. On the other hand, maybe one could have a pressurizing machine that keeps the brain under a constant high pressure, kicking in when the ship is not under acceleration, and easing off when it is. Anyone know what the effects (if any) are on a brain from being under extremely high pressure for very long stretches of time? I'd also imagine that having a ship full of devices that have to maintain the same pressure as a high pressure steam boiler constantly would be something of a maintenance nightmare. It might be worth it, it might not.

The fluid has to be the same density as your body, which means any air cavities will collapse under the pressure at high accelerations. Which means you have to fill your lungs and sinuses with liquid. This is what the Loroi fighter pilots do. Using a liquid breathing medium allows the pressure to be transmitted through your body (which is mostly liquid and uncompressible), allowing for very high acceleration or very high pressure (for ultra-deep dives: see the movie The Abyss). At high enough acceleration (several hundred G's), the difference in density between body tissues (such as bone) will start to be a problem, and the more dense tissues will start to tear through the less dense tissues, but this is not an issue at the <60G realm of most manned craft in Outsider.

Oxygen and nitrogen levels in the blood can also become a problem at high pressures, but this can be managed by controlling the dissolved gas levels in the liquid breathing medium.

Lastly, as to how the inertial dampeners work... unless Arioch speaks, we really can't know if they subtract, divide, or entirely eliminate within their capacity.

Inertial dampers can completely counter the acceleration of most manned craft in Outsider.

[fredgiblet]

Re: the discussion about Loroi communication.

One of the advantages that humans would have over Loroi for tech advancement comes into play there. In human history scientists have usually communicated, even across national boundaries, frequently even nations that are nearly at war with each other. Loroi clannishness is unlikely to allow that sort of thing. With the Loroi any amateur scientists would be largely cut off unless there was an official organization available to facilitate communication. This would be especially problematic during the early times of Loroi science if they followed a similar path as humans, where early science was largely performed by individuals and groups of friends with little to no official organization.

The result would be a massive duplication of effort as lack of communication prevents the sharing of ideas, also it would reduce the ability of Loroi scientists to get their information in front of new eyes that can correlate/expand on/reapply the ideas. There would even be likely a large amount of lost information as isolated scientists died without spreading their knowledge to anyone else.

[Suederwind]

This would be especially problematic during the early times of Loroi science if they followed a similar path as humans, where early science was largely performed by individuals and groups of friends with little to no official organization.

Is there even a dedicated civilian scientist caste or is that role exclusively filled by Listel caste members?

[fredgiblet]

I don't think Listel are the primary scientists. Eidetic memory is useful, but hardly a prerequisite to being a good scientist.

[Arioch]

The Listel are more of a librarian caste, though they do have some functions of investigative science and information gathering. Surveys and investigatory excavations (things like archaeology and paleontology) are mostly handled by the Listel in conjunction with relevant Soroin subsidiaries (who provide manpower and infrastructure support and transport).

Most field-specific research and development is handled by R&D departments of various military and civilian castes. Almost all Loroi universities are caste-specific.

[Argron]

Long time reader, first time poster. Let me start by saying that I read tons of webcomics and manga, hundreds, more even, and I can name less than 5 I would regularly check for updates for a whole year in the unlikely hope of seeing a new page. This webcomic is just that good, so thanks Arioch for the awesome concept, story, background and interesting characters.
Also, you are guilty of making me watch banner of the stars twice just to get over my Outsider withdrawal symptoms XD

Re: the discussion about Loroi communication.

One of the advantages that humans would have over Loroi for tech advancement comes into play there. In human history scientists have usually communicated, even across national boundaries, frequently even nations that are nearly at war with each other. Loroi clannishness is unlikely to allow that sort of thing. With the Loroi any amateur scientists would be largely cut off unless there was an official organization available to facilitate communication. This would be especially problematic during the early times of Loroi science if they followed a similar path as humans, where early science was largely performed by individuals and groups of friends with little to no official organization.

The result would be a massive duplication of effort as lack of communication prevents the sharing of ideas, also it would reduce the ability of Loroi scientists to get their information in front of new eyes that can correlate/expand on/reapply the ideas. There would even be likely a large amount of lost information as isolated scientists died without spreading their knowledge to anyone else.

Actually, I would say Loroi would make truly awesome scientists, among the best in the known galaxy, for many reasons:

- Biological: Loroi become adults with mature minds at 10, already able to grasp complex concepts a human child couldn't, and live up to 400 years with sound minds. This means 390 years of high level "sciencing", getting even better as they get more experienced, while human scientists spend studying for the first 25 years of their live, only to either die or start losing intelectual capacity before they even reach 80. In the past this difference between humans and Loroi was even larger, as humans life expectancy was even smaller in relatively recent times.

- Advanced communication technology: the Loroi have internet too, and considering they hardly use it for random crap, it will likely be filled with pure data and information, useful for some isolated scientist like in your example. Maybe not as great to quickly transfer ideas but that's what they have the telepathic grid for.

- Telepathic grid: if I understood this correctly, they basicly transfer info over long distances as long as there are loroi between them. 2 scientists could be talking and transfering each other pure data kilometers away from each other just by using others as relays.

- Telepathy: spoken language is awkward for transfering complex information, being inexact, unable to describe some things quickly, and is slower than the brain. A telepath that has only used such since birth for communication would be able to transfer incredible amounts of data, his/her own opinions, argue with each other, etc. way faster than if they used spoken communication, and with less margin of error as neither emitter or receiver would make mistakes explaining or understanding each other.
For example, they can probably transfer a full chart of something to each other in less than a second, while two humans would need like 10 minutes to explain the chart to each other if only 1 can see it. Videos, images, entire articles, etc. all transfered at the speed of thought.

- Transference of knowledge + Listels: so far the Loroi have many reasons that make them uber scientists, but then you have the Listel, that are basicly monsters at this. Not only they mature as fast as other Loroi, they can also be transfered massive amounts of information, and remember it perfectly. Say, 370 year old incredibly experienced scientist wants to share hundreds of years of research in a particular area of expertise. She can pour all of that directly into a Listel who will remember it exactly, and the transfer doesn't take decades, but minutes. But it gets better, as she can do this to 2, 3... 1000 listels. Which could be each age 20, meaning they have 380 years of life expectancy in front of them, yet they already have almost 400 years of experience in a particular field.
And this works exceptionally well for Listels but isn't needed, technically most Loroi could understand plenty of what was transfered to them.

- Historical: the Loroi recovered ancient artifacts of more advanced civilizations early in their new history, which meant several things at the same time:
* Sudden advance in technology.
* Even when the information wasn't enough to make a considerable jump in a particular field, at least science would follow correct paths, while humans wasted time in bullshit like alchemy.
* Scientists have free reign instead of being oppressed by religions, as those ruins would be a beacon of truth for ancient civilizations.
And yes, ruins were only easily accessible in some planets, but since they have the farseer caste to send information far far away, they surely were able to communicate these advances relatively soon.

- Society: while the caste system may seem like a problem as stiffness would block and impede scientific progress, the caste system means warriors of some nation may suffer considerable loses, or get exterminated if they lose, but the clear distinction of castes also means scientists and civilians are always spared, so the number of scientists and the support structures of the nation remain stable or even grows in percentage even during their worst crisis, so social and technological advancement should have remained stable during the whole Loroi history, and should remain stable even in future civil wars or alien conflicts if there are any (the Umiak would exterminate even most of the scientist caste, but other aliens likely wouldn't, for example).

- Their habitat is in their favour too: many of the worlds they live in were engineered to provide great habitats and excellent sources of food, meaning they would historically need far less people providing food than humanity has, or will in the future. Their organisms are also more efficient so they need less food, meaning even more people fed with less effort. This all frees manpower to other areas, including research.

- Size: they have a massive empire compared to ours and dozens of billions more inhabitants, so that means whatever they do will get done faster.

- Reproduction: not only they have a head start in size, they also can expand faster due to their gender ratios, thus increasing the power of their empire in all areas, including scientific research.

- Unity: they may be rather chaotic but still they are far more united than earth, which means truly massive technological projects will be faced with the full might of their whole empire, while humanity's tiny -relatively- nations and factions will still try to withhold as much information as they can to gain more power against each other.
Yes, the Loroi will likely do so too, but while some castes may withhold information from others, these are castes of several billions of people, while in humanity's case we are talking about the low hundreds in the case of most nations.

- Experience: they have a considerable technological head start and know what works and what doesn't while we are still doing trial and error on basic concepts.

- Genetically engineered: they were engineered to be better than humanity at whatever role, maybe as soldiers, maybe as something else. Whatever it was, chances are a superior intelligence over humans was also part of the augmentations? dunno if this was asked and answered before.

- Allies: for all the previous reasons I don't think they really need any help, yet they still have a further advantage in their favour, the Pipolsid are a perfect symbiotic race to the Loroi and they are master scientists; they are also likely very grateful for the Loroi saving their bacon not once but twice, against enemies that would enslave them and they had no hope of defeating. Humanity will have a hard time earning their trust as much as the Loroi already have.
But they are not the only ones in the Loroi alliance, and many other races contribute their own particular advanced technology.


Well that was long...

[dragoongfa]

Well, forgot to ask two words:

What are the Trade equivalent for month and meter?

[anamiac]

- Unity: they may be rather chaotic but still they are far more united than earth, which means truly massive technological projects will be faced with the full might of their whole empire, while humanity's tiny -relatively- nations and factions will still try to withhold as much information as they can to gain more power against each other.
Yes, the Loroi will likely do so too, but while some castes may withhold information from others, these are castes of several billions of people, while in humanity's case we are talking about the low hundreds in the case of most nations.

Au contraire, unity would be their greatest scientific weakness. The problem with unity is that most of our scientific progress occurs because people are off thinking differently than everyone else and doing things nobody else seems to put value in. Different people come up with different solutions to the same problem, and the only reason why the second solution is developed is because those engineers didn't have access to the first solution. Yet in the long run, the second solution might be more efficient. Sometimes re-inventing the wheel is a good thing.

Two examples:
1. The sidewinder missile system. This was developed by a Navy engineer who had too much time on his hands and a fascination with infrared sensors. The Navy leadership was fascinated with radar guided missiles, they had no interest in infrared. But nevertheless there was enough access to supplies and junk that this engineer was able to get a working missile created, even though it was more of an underfunded hobby than a normal project. Once the sidewinder demonstrated it's awesome lethality the navy leadership had to acknowledge that there was room for a heat seeking missile in their arsenal. Today modern fighters use both radar and heat guided missiles - the radar guided missiles are very expensive and heavy, but they have long range. Sidewinders are cheap, safe, light, and reliable but have shorter range.

2. Rocket Engines. During the cold war, Russia and America competed to put an astronaut on the moon. Russian engineers worked with a design that re-incorporated exhaust into the cycle to make a more efficient rocket. However, this rocket was also a lot more dangerous - 4 very big Russian rockets blew up, and the Americans laughed as we used our safe engines to put a man on the moon. The Russians cancelled their expensive moon program and everyone thought that would be the end of that. We continued to build our safe rockets for several decades. Then the iron curtain came down and some of our engineers got their hands on the Russian engines that had been mothballed... and discovered not only that they were more efficient, but that their kinks had been solved right before the Russians had closed down their program.


Loroi unity would have missed out in both of these cases.

[Siber]

Argron, welcome to the forums! I don't entirely agree with all your points, but before I get into a long rebuttal let me just say that it's all in good fun, and it's always nice to have a fresh face to stir the pot.

That side, I don't think that's all clear-cut advantages. Some of them could definitely help out in some situations, but I think many of them could hamper progress too. I'll go point by point.

Biology: Fast maturation is probably a clear leg up, but longevity might not be. Many people in history have suggested that after their first bursts of brilliance, many if not most of the great minds in history become resistant to change and scientific progress is somewhat slowed until their influence fades or they die. Einstein's resistance to quantum mechanics is a classic example of this, I believe. Whole debates have and could still be had about if this is a real factor or not, but if it exists at all the extreme longevity of Loroi could amplify it greatly.

Telepathic grid: I don't think it works as machine-like as you've made it out to be. As I understand the mechanics, every notable scientist would need a network of listel grad students between them, spaced out one every 80 meters or so, for something like what you suggest to be feasible, and it still wouldn't be instant.

Telepathy: I think many people underestimate how inexact perception and memory is, and your chart example is under that umbrella for me. The whole point of a chart is that it's representing an amount of data that is hard to hold all in your head at once, so it's useful to draw illustrative lines and figures that allow an at-a-glance understand and then deeper understanding at study. Most of the Loroi population aren't Listel, either.

Listels: I don't know the details on cognition and editic memory, and when I've looked into it there seems to be doubts that the ability, at least as portrayed in most fiction, exists at all, but I have to assume that even if you can store all that information instantly it takes time to comprehend what you've stored and extract useful meaning on it. And when it comes to transference, even if you have perfect recall, marshaling a lifetime of facts and experiences and transmitting it has to have practical limitations, otherwise a group of Listel could train in disparate skills and then share them. Intellectual skills are things that need practice just like physical ones, and while I can believe that Listel are walking libraries, I can't believe that being able to perfectly memorize and on demand regurgitate a calculus textbook automatically makes you good at calculus.

History: Supertech artifacts might spur development at times, but it might also be regarded as un-reproducible supernatural things. If an alchemist had discovered a hunk of plastic or stainless steel or a airframe incorporating titanium and aluminum would it have turned him from alchemy or would he have viewed it through alchemical terms and tried to reproduce it through alchemical means?

Society: The Loroi seem perfectly capable of scorched earth tactics. I expect that their wars among themselves have seen both progress-aiding absorption of great minds, and senseless wholesale slaughters of civilians, just like our history.

Habitat: No argument on the facts, but they do say necessity is the mother of invention. Being more comfortable in their environments might give them more resources, but less impetus to use them.

The rest I don't have much comment on, except unity, which Anamiac covered.

[Arioch]

What are the Trade equivalent for month and meter?

The mannal or "pace" is 0.776 meters.

The nanapi is 241.92 hours (10.08 Earth days).

[Argron]

@anamiac: By unity I don't mean single minded ideas, but pulling many people together, amassing resources towards achieving a single goal by whatever means. For example, things like the great wall in china, the trans-siberian railway, the suez and panama channels, the manhattan project, the three gorges damn would be impossible with a massive pool of resources focused on achieving a single purpose.

We know that with such a massive empire, once the ones in charge find the need for a particular goal to be achieved, be the perfection of some travelling or communications technology, the design of a particular vehicle or weapon, etc. the empire will asign massive amounts of resources to this project. Way more than the human government could ever muster because they are 5 times as big and way more advanced, that is a fact.

What isn't a fact is that the Loroi would be monolithical in their research and only follow single ideas. For example in the real world companies often compete fairly for engineering projects issued by the government and the best solution wins, at least in theory, as many countries appoint those to particular companies for political or other reasons rather than the merit of the company's solution. There is no reason to think the Loroi wouldn't do this, in fact seeing as how different castes oppose each other, it stands to reason if they were working on similar projects they would try to outdo each other. Which might include that each caste could have different teams on different planets all working on the same project, maybe working together in some areas and sharing information, or not, if competing teams would be seen as a better solution.


As I previously pointed out, they have hundreds if not thousands of years of advanced science and engineering research experience over us, they have tried and tested scientific and research methods we haven't yet come up with, and for each they have found it works they have also found a hundred that don't, so they won't lose as much time and effort as we do from now on.
We still have to bump into all those dead-ends on how best to do and how not to do research they have already discovered before we actually find the wrong research solutions, let alone the actual correct ones they have also already discovered. And will likely not fully share.


@Siber: thanks man, nice to have geeky discussions about blue space elves haha. Answering your points.

Biology: yes, old humans are resistant to change and accepting of new ideas, but it may be another number of reasons, for example, getting old affects people not only physically, but also psychologically, the weakening body and fear for their health and lives likely make them more adverse to risks, wary of things that haven't been experienced, etc. A 200 or 300 years old Loroi, while conscious of time, would not be remembered every waking minute of her own age and impending doom by a set of unreasonable pains and weakness so it wouldn't affect her psychologically as much, if at all. They would be worried about some young one proving wrong her legacy, but then again, insisting on it being right and being proven not only wrong but a persistent idiot would be even worse. But this problem would be faced also by humans, who are also almost entirely ruled by old geezers btw.

Telepathic grid: I stand corrected.

Telepathy: can they not send images? if they can't, I still think I could more easily describe something like a video or a chart by thought than through words but I may be wrong, while for written articles and opinions telepathy would work as spoken communication, only faster.

Listels: I see what you mean, and it makes sense, memorizing a whole book of calculus wouldn't mean you instantly know how to calculate, but you could quickly access the sections needed to understand a particular problem.
Since I think Arioch confirmed they learn by being transfered information, or at least some are, I would guess they have the equivalent of "courses" optimized to be transmitted and received telepathically, and after the first course on some specialty the loroi would "digest" these concepts by themselves, asking when they don't understand something, and then successive more advanced courses would be transfered. Listels would just be able to digest this information faster and way better, and I guess when they have reached a considerable understanding in a particular area of expertise they could gobble up the whole scientific knowledge of an older loroi, remembering it exactly. More like years rather than 10 minutes but still the whole concept makes sense to me.

History: yeah while supertech artifacts wouldn't make sense at times and would make people run in circles for a long time, at some point they would push research massively, and even when not fully understood they could point towards the right direction. For example, if said artifacts were on earth we could have had similar languages all over the world, similar or at least relatable religions or lack of them, if some of those artifacts were made of some metalic alloy maybe they would have pushed humans towards developing of similar metals earlier by imitation, or imagine if we had nowadays a piece of really advanced nanotechnology conserved from ancient times, we might have discovered the workings of electricity earlier and we would be milking that thing like a cow right now.

Society: yeah the Loroi would definitely massacre whole populations but while in the 20th century we have 100 million deaths caused by countries own governments over its civilian populations, the Loroi would have only organized this "industrialized murder" on the military castes, leaving most of society working unimpeded. The same with civil wars.
Total wars would still obviously target everything on the other nation, but as bloody as those are, they are small compared to what our own governments have done over its own people for thinking differently -or the chance of it ever happening-.

Habitat: yeah, necessity is the mother of invention, but advanced societies only started showing up when people had full belies so... XD

[dragoongfa]

snip

The greatest problem is their warrior culture, their constantly active telepathy and the lack of incentives to innovate.

Warrior cultures have always been traditionalists who not only refused social change but placed high social status on warriors and warrior like activities. Research and Development are not warrior like and in fact free thinkers were seen as useless pariahs. Remember that the most successful human warrior society was Japan and they remained technologically stagnant for centuries because the best and brightest went into the warrior class while the free thinkers were regularly cast out of society.

Telepathy also plays a huge part imho, Loroi are constantly using a lot of mind power to both cut out the noise and for sensing their surroundings. This places a huge burden on their minds and that is before accounting for how militant warrior societies abhor free thinkers. The Loroi are an anomaly in this regard, as in they allowed technological research and innovation but as Arioch has put it, their society doesn't offer incentives for technological innovations.

Incentives to innovate are key and we humans are naturally curious and always wish for the next big idea for the next big thing. Our society is naturally geared for technological innovations and this is why we essentially jump through tech levels in break neck speeds when compared to the Loroi and the rest of the alien species.

EDIT: Also reproduction is a doubled edged sword.

Uncontrolled population booms are chaos inducers for all societies. Resources are finite and as such a population boom will undoubtedly result in warfare. Then there is their telepathy to consider which obviously puts a toll in Loroi tolerance for crowded spaces. Bear in mind that the total Loroi population is 50 to 100 billion and the total human population is 25 billion. The Loroi have a few dozens of worlds, the humans have six but Earth alone holds 99% of the population.

[Siber]

Dragoongfa: I wonder if those reproductive issues bias Loroi towards very restrictive societies. You need a culture that allows very centralized control of everyone's reproductive rights, otherwise the biology lends itself to destructively aggressive population growth that selects against the culture that allows it.