Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Jayngfet
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

I assumed that, but I just wanted to confirm. Mainly because the implications of that are kind of huge once you actually work through the concept. By which I mean that while other primates, dolphins, and equivalent species can reach mental adulthood in a similar timeframe, they aren't running a stellar empire and the expectations are a bit different.

Let me reiterate: It's not about when Loroi are culturally adults or what expectations society puts on it's members, it's about what the brain is physically set up to do at what age and how it develops as a result. The brain of an adult will process information differently from the brain of a child and the cultural definitions of those terms are kind of secondary to what's physically going on with the actual meat inside the Loroi skull.

To get to the point(or rather, a point), that fact alone indicates that the Loroi idea of what they were doing when the Soia were around can't really be accurate, just going by some other assumptions everyone here has. If you started with a human and wanted to engineer it into being any kind of administrator, leader or ruler, you can't really skip over early brain development because that'll be the point when your future ruler will be best retaining the information they'll need to rule. Even if you can just broadcast information directly into the mind that doesn't really change things, because now you have half the time you'd otherwise have in order to do that.

If, however, you had a human template and needed to engineer them to do one specific thing, or a range of things, that's not really relevant. They only need the time to take in a specific set of things before you reach adulthood and the brain retains information a bit differently.

This probably isn't a huge problem for a rigid, caste based society anyway for the same reason. Each individual only needs to take on a specific amount of information to do their job.

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Arioch
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

The Loroi running a stellar empire aren't 12 years old; they're generally more than 100 years old. You seem to be making an assumption that the brain can only learn during a limited early developmental period; I don't think that's really true even for humans (I've learned most of my current art skills after the age of 30), and I certainly don't see any reason why it should have to be true for an alien species with a very different biology.

Especially if you're talking about a species that has been engineered in some way. If we take the Nibiren and Barsam as an example, what you have are two species that have very similar structural and mechanical characteristics, but completely different biochemical systems that make them work. It seems that one was clearly engineered to resemble the other, but there's no reason that Nibiren developmental limitations should be any limitation on Barsam developmental processes, since they're using a completely different system. An analogy would be two versions the same painting done in oils and watercolors; they might look similar and deliberately so, but different and incompatible techniques would have to be used for each one.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

I think you aren't following what I'm saying at all. Of course you can keep learning after that point, it just becomes more difficult.

A side by side comparison would be if you took a Loroi and a Human born at the exact same time and exposed them to the same information in the same way, the Loroi might get an initial advantage for the first couple of years, but by the time they hit seven or eight years old you'd see the major differences, because the Loroi brain will have already blown past the point where it'd be retaining that information in the same way. Once you hit the teen years it becomes more pronounced, because the Loroi brain simply will not retain information in the same way. It's like learning a language. You can learn it at any age, but it's largely agreed that the brain handles information like that long before adulthood. But when a human is at that age, a Loroi is long past it. That peak window would be reduced by like half at least.

Obviously a 1:1 comparison is loaded, since Loroi have another avenue of communication that allows information to be sent faster and more clearly, so learning faster is just a matter of course. Likewise you can obviously still learn and retain information past that point, and Loroi have longer to do it. But the question was never how the Loroi as a civilization develop or how they deal with it in a practical setting, the question was just how that specific organ develops over a specific time frame. The age of the Loroi who run the show doesn't really factor into it.

Likewise, weather the Loroi themselves have ever been aware of the comparison doesn't really factor into it. The Nibren and Barsam are the obvious point of comparison, but the difference there is that we don't actually have any hard numbers regarding either species, or many real hard details on their cultures. Or rather, you do and I don't so I can't really say anything on it.

As for the analogy: Watercolor and Oil may be totally different, but in both mediums you still need time for the paint to dry properly. You can get different types of paint and use different techniques to play around with that, but you can't really consider a wet painting "done". Even if no materials are shared between them and the styles are different, some things just need to be constant. Paint needs to dry. Models need to render. So on and so forth. The same kind of applies here. Even if my assumption is off completely there'd need to be an entirely different system at play to get to an end result.

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Arioch
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Jayngfet wrote:A side by side comparison would be if you took a Loroi and a Human born at the exact same time and exposed them to the same information in the same way, the Loroi might get an initial advantage for the first couple of years, but by the time they hit seven or eight years old you'd see the major differences, because the Loroi brain will have already blown past the point where it'd be retaining that information in the same way. Once you hit the teen years it becomes more pronounced, because the Loroi brain simply will not retain information in the same way. It's like learning a language. You can learn it at any age, but it's largely agreed that the brain handles information like that long before adulthood. But when a human is at that age, a Loroi is long past it. That peak window would be reduced by like half at least.
You seem to be assuming that Loroi brain development works exactly the same way as human brain development works, and I don't see any reason to make that assumption about an alien biology.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

You're mistaking the entire original question for an assumption.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Absalom »

It is unwise to assume that the speed of learning in humans has to change with age: there are indications that it's not due to fundamental biological workings but instead due to additional channels interfering with the process. Further, there are indications that a significant part of the situation is caused by not learning new things.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

Excepting of course that that study has many problems, some of which are pointed out even within the article itself. I'm currently on mobile and I'll provide links when I can but that information is in fact directly contradicted by other studies that handle language and the brain.

EDIT: Harvard has a whole site devoted to it, but here's a link to the relevant bit:

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/scie ... hitecture/

There's a bunch of other articles but you kind of get the gist of it. It's not that the brain can or can't handle information or develop in new ways, it's that it takes more effort along later developmental milestones. Not only that, but other studies relating to language, the brain, and age show that that information isn't retained or executed perfectly either. People who learn languages or literacy at a later age will routinely fail to grasp several sections of the linguistic system in question.
Last edited by Jayngfet on Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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orion1836
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by orion1836 »

I've given a fair chunk of thought to the concept of brain development in a science fiction setting. If I ever get around to writing the novel that's in the back of my head (unlikely), one of the key parts of the setting is direct knowledge transfer that allows individuals to upload/erase skillsets like one would move around data on a computer. It would kind of be like the knowledge transfer from the Matrix ("I know Kung-Fu") except the amount and quality of skills you could learn would be limited.

One of the things I had to consider when building the world with such a technology was the limitations. Could you have 5 year-olds with the skills of a master craftsman? To my mind, no, not even if you were able to transfer all that knowledge into a brain that was still developing. I'm no doctor, but a system that made sense to me based on my own learning and development over the years featured a separation of "book learning" and "experiential learning." You could transfer the former in a matter of seconds, but the latter had to be done the old fashioned way. You could transfer information, but not memory, to include "muscle memory."

For instance, if say one of my characters wanted to learn the piano, he could sit in the device and have the knowledge uploaded. He could then sit at a piano and play perfectly, but it would sound like a machine was producing the sound. The soft touch on certain keys, slight pauses, and all the other things which convey an individual's signature style and emotion on the piano would have to come with time and "old school" experience.

In this manner, individuals could be trained very quickly, but still require time to develop and master their skills. I envisioned a system where teenagers would get information downloaded as soon as their brains could handle it (12-14 in my estimation) and then spend the rest of their teenage years practicing the skills. "School" would be no longer a learning environment, but a practical one. An engineer, for example, would spend 6-8 years of "school" building or designing in his field, kind of like an apprenticeship, then hit the workforce with the equivalent of that much work experience at 18-20.

I imagine the end result of the Loroi's system of development is very similar. Knowledge can be transferred almost instantaneously, but an individual Loroi still needs to gain experience. A 13 year-old Loroi can pilot a fighter just fine, but still requires decades of experience to command a ship or a group.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

I think you're again misunderstanding. Once you get past whatever physical limitations the body has, a 13 year old can pilot a fighter. The actual act of learning to fly isn't really the time consuming part of training a modern fighter pilot compared to needing a four year degree and going through months of basic training that has nothing to do with flying.

The question isn't if an individual Loroi can have a specific skillset, which is evident. Or if they can learn a language past a certain point, since that's also evident just from dialogue. The question centers around how the actual brain itself develops.

Just a Crazy-Man
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Just a Crazy-Man »

Hello on the Loroi meets UNSC thread something hit me that brought me here on the Umiak that the dead planets are ignored are in fact quiet build ups of uncontested resources for the Umiak. It got me thinking on the buggers and than a hive and tunnels and orbital bombardment not enough to crack the crusts while all surface installations and layers destroyed deep underground could survive. Thinking Umiak like a anti hill or a underground colony we wipe out the surface and bomb the upper layers but likely safe underground. If this is true this could explain where they getting there vast resources and slipping fleets from as these worlds are FOBs scatter ships confuse as raiders and extra ships join up and than fleets the war of attrition I fear Loroi left themselves expose to a new offensive and since Farseers not looking likely missed over.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Krulle »

The Loroi farseers do see life signatures of sapient minds.
When scanning a system which is light-years away, their focus ain't good enough to pin down on which planet/orbit the signature is, so it is unlikely they are missing something. And since they keep constant watch on the Steppes,it is unlikely someone is able to get to a planet long enough to start digging deep enough to actually become self-sufficient before being noticed by the Loroi.
The mass of a planet might act as Lotai, once deep enough. But I find it still too unlikely that this is happening in the current situation.
Behind the lines this may be going on, especially in otherwise depleted systems.
But living on a planet with a biosphere is soo much cheaper and more efficient than living with artificial air systems, that the Umiak likely won't be doing it more than necessary. Like specific ressource-rich mining planets.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Just a Crazy-Man »

Krulle wrote:The Loroi farseers do see life signatures of sapient minds.
When scanning a system which is light-years away, their focus ain't good enough to pin down on which planet/orbit the signature is, so it is unlikely they are missing something. And since they keep constant watch on the Steppes,it is unlikely someone is able to get to a planet long enough to start digging deep enough to actually become self-sufficient before being noticed by the Loroi.
The mass of a planet might act as Lotai, once deep enough. But I find it still too unlikely that this is happening in the current situation.
Behind the lines this may be going on, especially in otherwise depleted systems.
But living on a planet with a biosphere is soo much cheaper and more efficient than living with artificial air systems, that the Umiak likely won't be doing it more than necessary. Like specific ressource-rich mining planets.
What about if they already there to begin with and survive haha under the bombardment and play dead than wait and poke out and get to work. That assumes we wipe out all life and no secret factories preparing to swarm out fresh fleet of light ships or gunships to swarm the Loroi still this is war. What's the worse case. Likely a one time use but they could amass a armada of surface to spacecraft. Also could the Farseers detect a Interstellar Missiles or unmanned craft

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Krulle »

Just a Crazy-Man wrote:Also could the Farseers detect a Interstellar Missiles or unmanned craft
No. They detect the signature of a mind.
Shielded minds not, but they don't understand telepathy yet, so don't know how it works. It just works for them.

Therefore, they cannot detect missiles, or unmanned craft.

I don't know about a sentient AI.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Just a Crazy-Man »

Aye Aye

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

The war has been fought mostly in Loroi territory or former Loroi territory. The Loroi raided some new Umiak colonies in the Maia theater, but in the Steppes theater, with the exception of Loroi attacks against Morat territory, the only Umiak-held systems that the Loroi have attacked were Umiak-occupied former Loroi colonies. Umiak home territory has been largely untouched by the war, and this is where the vast majority of Umiak production comes from. There are hundreds of inhabited systems in the Umiak empire, as opposed to the dozen or so razed systems in the Charred Steppes.

The Umiak are not subterranean by nature; on the contrary, their ancestors were nomads on the open plains. They can build underground installations same as we can, and such installations could house mines and perhaps factories, but at this tech level most starships require orbital facilities to assemble; they can't take off from a planet. And if there were streams of supplies or new ships coming from the Steppes, the Loroi would have observed this even without Farseers.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Just a Crazy-Man »

Hmmm what kinda races are under the Buggers Dominion as Loroi anti neutrally and Umiak taking advantage getting the other neutrals on there side.

So how deep are underground installations as the deepest we dug is what 7 miles and be safe under thick surface and bunker busters and kinetic rods and point lasers smite anyone above whats the most powerful bunker killer both sides have. Plus best bunker to survive.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Just a Crazy-Man wrote:Hmmm what kinda races are under the Buggers Dominion as Loroi anti neutrally and Umiak taking advantage getting the other neutrals on there side.

So how deep are underground installations as the deepest we dug is what 7 miles and be safe under thick surface and bunker busters and kinetic rods and point lasers smite anyone above whats the most powerful bunker killer both sides have. Plus best bunker to survive.
A list of known Umiak client races is here.

The only limit to how deep you can dig is the point at which the ground becomes unavoidably hot; if you go deep enough, it ceases to be solid. Anyone could dig a deep enough hole to hide in and survive a bombardment, but to what end? Any resources or goods produced must be transported off the planet in order to be useful, and that transport would come under Loroi attack the moment they appeared. It seems to me that workers and capital required to set up such bases would be much better invested somewhere else that was not in contested territory.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Hālian »

Are there any base-rank Teidar in the comic or etc.? There used to be one on page 55 panel 4, but she appears to have been sneakily promoted to Teidar Ragan.

Also, are you and Julia Francis related? :P
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Hālian wrote:Are there any base-rank Teidar in the comic or etc.? There used to be one on page 55 panel 4, but she appears to have been sneakily promoted to Teidar Ragan.
Yeah, Mothwing (the green-haired Teidar in the infirmary scene).
Hālian wrote:Also, are you and Julia Francis related? :P
No relation.

Jayngfet
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

I mean, presuming the mantle is hot enough and you can tap into enough power effectively, you could probably power a ground to base military installation off geothermal, or at least partly power it. But anything that chunky to do it effectively would be a big and obvious target to hit first.

A mantle based bunker isn't really a long term solution or a viable one. You're alive through the initial bombardment and however long your supplies last if everything goes well. The entrance likely won't be clear so forget flying out in any kind of ship, even provided whoever bombarded you doesn't just stick around to blow you off or occupy the planet. If you can build a bunker like that you have the resources and technology available to have a defensive fleet, and probably something in orbit like a space station with mounted weapons.

The only real plan of action is to sit there and something else blows up the enemy fleet. Which works for civilians, but doesn't give the military a course of action.

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