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Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Besides that, any skin to skin contact he had to a Loroi was either at the very first start - when they did try to get into his head, forcefully - and then maybe sort of accidental. Talon might have been the very first Loroi who actually touched him voluntarily and without the intent to peek into Alex's head or rather with the intent not to do it.

Judging from the brief interaction, she does strike me as little Miss Manners. Friendly, amicable, but rather circumspect about any possible social blunder. Scuttlebutt may have already told her that Alex can feel the attempts to make telepathic contact and it's not quite a pleasant experience for him. So it could have been a conscious effort on her part to not cause him any discomfort.


Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
cacambo43 wrote:
I thought the sensation Alex was getting was telekinetic rather than telepathic?

The initial sensation of contact, described by Alex as akin to "electrostatic shock," was telepathic. The subsequent seizure-like pressure was telekinetic.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
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It's not all in one place that is easily postable, but is spread across multiple hundred-plus page documents. And no, the 788-page main notes document is not suitable for public consumption. :D


Guess I'll just have to keep pestering you with questions then, :) .

Speaking of which, do Loroi have to learn to speak telepathically? Or can a feral Loroi talk with anyone as well as anyone else?

And do Loroi telekinetics learn powers such as heating up objects and controlling electricity, or does a particular telekinetic need to be born with the power to be able to interact with electricity and so on?


Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:13 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
White wrote:
Speaking of which, do Loroi have to learn to speak telepathically? Or can a feral Loroi talk with anyone as well as anyone else?

Loroi infants typically become telepathically active before they are born (but they don't have much to say). The sophistication of telepathic communication increases as the mind matures, but it's not quite like a learned language. Loroi from completely different cultures can communicate telepathically without problem.

White wrote:
And do Loroi telekinetics learn powers such as heating up objects and controlling electricity, or does a particular telekinetic need to be born with the power to be able to interact with electricity and so on?

It's all the same power, just different skills. However, some telekinetics will find some skills easier than others, and not all will be able to learn all of the available skills.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
So maybe I'm treading on old ground here but does that mean that knowledge (and to some degree basic skills) among loroi is more imprinted than educated?

That would explain why they can reach adulthood (I assume mentally) so quickly even though their society is technologically advanced and sophisticated.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
It's an old question that I have seen some times.

The gist of the matter is that telepathic teaching is highly efficient, to have the knowledge sent to you mentally is far quicker than just having it visually shown or verbally communicated to. However this doesn't translate to instant comprehension of said knowledge. A telepathic teacher has to make sure that their students comprehend what they were just taught before continuing.

A Listel knows a LOT of diverse scientific knowledge and is intelligent enough to comprehend all of it. However this doesn't mean that the Soroin or Teidar she will send said knowledge will be able to comprehend it.

In short: Telepathic teaching is quick and efficient but that doesn't mean that it is merely a 'copy and paste' of information. Being able to comprehend said information is key.

Also Iirc Loroi are taught what they need in order to fulfill their initial caste duties, for some castes this is not much time; fresh our of the academy Soroin or Teidar for example who are very young by Loroi standards. Other castes however, Listel, Doranzer and etc, are having longer official training periods.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
hi hi

I was thinking about Loroi characters the other day, and I had an odd thought. Who mourns for those lost in battle? I know that members of a Loroi's diral form a close knit group that would almost certainly mourn the passing of one of their own. But if I remember correctly, Loroi don't really form close family ties as we would recognize them.

If a ship full of rookies blew up, and everyone onboard was lost, would there be anyone left that would have known a member of the crew closely?


Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:35 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

I was thinking about Loroi characters the other day, and I had an odd thought. Who mourns for those lost in battle? I know that members of a Loroi's diral form a close knit group that would almost certainly mourn the passing of one of their own. But if I remember correctly, Loroi don't really form close family ties as we would recognize them.

If a ship full of rookies blew up, and everyone onboard was lost, would there be anyone left that would have known a member of the crew closely?

Loroi warriors do have extended family, and they will also often form close ties with others in their adult units. But no, there is no civilian nuclear family that will be devastated by the loss of each warrior... which is a useful thing, for a warrior culture.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
[...] there is no civilian nuclear family that will be devastated by the loss of each warrior... which is a useful thing, for a warrior culture.

Are there any particular downsides that the Loroi are faced with as a result of this limited impact that loss and grief have?

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
CF2 wrote:
Arioch wrote:
[...] there is no civilian nuclear family that will be devastated by the loss of each warrior... which is a useful thing, for a warrior culture.

Are there any particular downsides that the Loroi are faced with as a result of this limited impact that loss and grief have?

I don't think I would say that loss has a limited impact... it's still going to affect the lost soldier's friends and family, but they will all be military.

There are certainly some drawbacks to segregating the civilian and military populations. Chief among them, I think, is that the segregated civilian population has less personal attachment to the war effort can be a downside as well, as you may not get the same level of commitment and creativity that you might get from a more engaged work force. You also lose the flexibility of being able to draw upon civilians reinforcements in wartime and being able to return combatants to productive civilians jobs in peacetime.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
hi hi

Arioch wrote:
... which is a useful thing, for a warrior culture.

I can certainly see the usefulness. Although, I would think that it could maybe lead to some sort of drop in morale, occasionally. At least with humans, worrying that there will be no one to remember them or carry on after them is a common theme when pondering their own mortality. For Loroi, with their telepathic storytelling in particular, I wonder if wanting someone to remember them would be an even stronger urge.

Ah, never mind me. It was just an errant musing.


Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:38 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Oh, the Listel-on-duty will remember you.
And I presume, she will be rotated rather quickly off the ship, so that hher tactical knowledge of how her ships survived can be passed in the academies....

So, with that many eidetic persons around you, you will be remembered in the living archives...

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Krulle wrote:
Oh, the Listel-on-duty will remember you.
And I presume, she will be rotated rather quickly off the ship, so that hher tactical knowledge of how her ships survived can be passed in the academies....

So, with that many eidetic persons around you, you will be remembered in the living archives...


Being memorized isn't quite the same as being *remembered*, if that makes any sense. But clearly there is some link - after all, they have some pretty potent legends, like that of Tempest. That sort of myth-making has to have a path of remembrance in it somehow (beyond regurgitation).

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
cacambo43 wrote:
But clearly there is some link - after all, they have some pretty potent legends, like that of Tempest. That sort of myth-making has to have a path of remembrance in it somehow (beyond regurgitation).

Though I'm not sure if Tempest's story is that of a defeated hero, it seems more likely to be of the triumphant hero sort, purely because naming a ship after a hero that is defeated may have some negative effect on crew mentality. In which case, living legends are a little different from memories of the departed.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Do the Loroi have any sort of Genova Convention, or at least some limits like "don't massacre civilians" or "don't kill children ". Outside the current conflict against the Umiaks, I mean.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
raistlin34 wrote:
Do the Loroi have any sort of Genova Convention, or at least some limits like "don't massacre civilians" or "don't kill children ". Outside the current conflict against the Umiaks, I mean.

No. The Union and the various regional government have a variety of laws protecting their citizens, but which do not apply outside of their jurisdictions. The only major conflicts since the formation of the Union have been the Neridi Succession War (a Loroi vs. Loroi civil war), and the current war with the Umiak.

Prior to the formation of the Union, there was an Interspecies Convention that attempted to set up guidelines for warfare, but it had no authority to enforce these rules, and they were routinely ignored by combatants.

Prior to the Loroi return to starflight, there were a variety of formal and informal rules to warfare (in most Mestirot Deinar cultures in the classical era, battles were by tradition fought in the open field and not in and around cities or civilian populations; city walls and defenses were considered a dirty trick, and a sort of "human shield"), which were sometimes followed and sometimes ignored.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
[...] in most Mestirot Deinar cultures in the classical era, battles were by tradition fought in the open field and not in and around cities or civilian populations; city walls and defenses were considered a dirty trick, and a sort of "human shield" [...]

That seems rather remarkable. Culture can warp the rules of survival when it comes to war, so long as you continue to win, but at a certain point you take every advantage you can in order to win. Given how militaristic the Loroi are, surely they must have produced some fortifications comparable to those built by mankind.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
CF2 wrote:
Arioch wrote:
[...] in most Mestirot Deinar cultures in the classical era, battles were by tradition fought in the open field and not in and around cities or civilian populations; city walls and defenses were considered a dirty trick, and a sort of "human shield" [...]

That seems rather remarkable. Culture can warp the rules of survival when it comes to war, so long as you continue to win, but at a certain point you take every advantage you can in order to win. Given how militaristic the Loroi are, surely they must have produced some fortifications comparable to those built by mankind.

Not every war is a total war. In certain eras and regions when wars were frequent but limited (such as in Europe in the 17th-19th centuries), all kinds of rules of war appeared. When power is partly about the prestige of the warrior class, warfare can become ritualized, and some seemingly counter-productive customs can arise. One example from our own history was the practice of allowing a battle to be decided by single combat between two champions. This is a little bit like dueling in the 17th-19th centuries; it was more often to save face and extract a concession rather than to kill the other party. There is always the danger of a desperate party breaking the rules, but when there are many different powers that belong to the same culture and practice the same set of rules, the consequences for violating these codes could sometimes be worse than those of losing a war.

Not all periods in Loroi history were as civilized, but in the classical period on Deinar (1750-50 BCE), warfare had become highly ritualized. Armies were composed almost exclusively of heavy and light infantry, with no cavalry (as there were no suitable riding animals), and essentially no missile weapons. Missiles could be largely countered by telekinetic officers, and were considered a "peasant weapon" and their development was therefore discouraged. When you don't have missile weapons, fortifications are of limited value. Most of the Loroi nations were not great builders, and so civilians and their infrastructure were not considered legitimate targets. Battles were savage but limited affairs between armies; whoever held the field won the day, and the loser was expected to make appropriate concessions to the victor. If you weren't strong enough to win a battle in the open field, you were not considered a legitimate ruling power. Civilian settlements changed hands frequently along the borders between rival nations; there was often little sense of kinship between the civilians and the warriors that fought over them.

Not all of the Loroi subcultures played by the same rules, of course. The nations of the eastern peninsula of Daiam were great builders, and fortified their cities (and eventually their entire peninsula) with great walls. In this way they were able to remain independent from the nearby Arran empire through most of its height, but they were always looked down upon as barbarian "civilians in armor."

This era of courtly warfare ended with the inevitable development of gunpowder firearms.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
Not every war is a total war. In certain eras and regions when wars were frequent but limited (such as in Europe in the 17th-19th centuries), all kinds of rules of war appeared. When power is partly about the prestige of the warrior class, warfare can become ritualized, and some seemingly counter-productive customs can arise. One example from our own history was the practice of allowing a battle to be decided by single combat between two champions. This is a little bit like dueling in the 17th-19th centuries; it was more often to save face and extract a concession rather than to kill the other party. There is always the danger of a desperate party breaking the rules, but when there are many different powers that belong to the same culture and practice the same set of rules, the consequences for violating these codes could sometimes be worse than those of losing a war.

Not all periods in Loroi history were as civilized, but in the classical period on Deinar (1750-50 BCE), warfare had become highly ritualized. Armies were composed almost exclusively of heavy and light infantry, with no cavalry (as there were no suitable riding animals), and essentially no missile weapons. Missiles could be largely countered by telekinetic officers, and were considered a "peasant weapon" and their development was therefore discouraged. When you don't have missile weapons, fortifications are of limited value. Most of the Loroi nations were not great builders, and so civilians and their infrastructure were not considered legitimate targets. Battles were savage but limited affairs between armies; whoever held the field won the day, and the loser was expected to make appropriate concessions to the victor. If you weren't strong enough to win a battle in the open field, you were not considered a legitimate ruling power. Civilian settlements changed hands frequently along the borders between rival nations; there was often little sense of kinship between the civilians and the warriors that fought over them.

Not all of the Loroi subcultures played by the same rules, of course. The nations of the eastern peninsula of Daiam were great builders, and fortified their cities (and eventually their entire peninsula) with great walls. In this way they were able to remain independent from the nearby Arran empire through most of its height, but they were always looked down upon as barbarian "civilians in armor."

This era of courtly warfare ended with the inevitable development of gunpowder firearms.


All right. Silly thought scenario time.

Through unusual alien shenanigans, the French forces from the 15th-century Battle of Agincourt (let's go with the lower estimate of 10,000 knights and men-at-arms (1200 of which are cavalry), and an assume 2000 crossbowmen) face down a roughly equivalent force of Loroi from the Deinar period. What happens?

Spoiler: show
My initial assumption is that, weight for weight, Loroi light and heavy infantry are roughly equivalent to their opposites within the French, but that mounted cavalry will be a difficult (and perhaps morale-degrading) problem to counter -- especially if crossbows were used to effectively distract the Loroi's telekinetics so the French cavalry could line up and charge with less interference. If the telekinetics had time to focus, however, they could probably devastate the French cavalry by tripping large swaths of horses mid-charge.


Thought experiment over, here's a more serious question. We know the Loroi don't really have 'fiction' the same way humanity does, and most likely don't really have a media industry as a result (unless there's a military communications department dedicated to "recreating" battles as propaganda pieces to spread to other members of the Union). So what's their reaction to other species that *do* have one. Do they consider it a waste of time, or an interesting tool? Are there small subcultures of Loroi that view Barsam broadcasts in their free time, whom most Loroi make fun of for their strange ideas and actions?


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Gorbash wrote:
We know the Loroi don't really have 'fiction' the same way humanity does, and most likely don't really have a media industry as a result (unless there's a military communications department dedicated to "recreating" battles as propaganda pieces to spread to other members of the Union). So what's their reaction to other species that *do* have one. Do they consider it a waste of time, or an interesting tool? Are there small subcultures of Loroi that view Barsam broadcasts in their free time, whom most Loroi make fun of for their strange ideas and actions?

The Barsam have mass media, but not a strong tradition of fiction (unless you consider religious teachings to be works of fiction :D). The religious portion of it is a combination of ceremony, oration, and music; the storytelling portion of it is allegorical, but the Loroi can recognize it as analogous to their own heroic myths. Most secular Barsam media are non-fiction related to politics, business, or science and technology.

The Neridi have a diverse media culture that is probably the most like ours among the Union nations, and they do have arts that we would recognize as literature, theater and teleplay, which present tales of pure fiction. Loroi mainstream culture views these media as a silly waste of everyone's time at best (and dangerous disinformation at worst), and the Neridi sense of irony and humor is mostly lost on the Loroi.

There will always be Loroi individuals who consume and enjoy alien media, but I'm not sure that it would rise to the level of a "sub-culture." Unless you emigrate and live among the aliens (which some Loroi individuals do), it can be difficult to get a steady supply of alien media in Loroi territory; each planetary network is isolated by the lightspeed barrier, and so must wait for ship-carried updates, which can be irregular (especially in wartime) and can take weeks or months to propagate. Neridi soap operas are definitely going to be considered low-priority data by the folks running the Loroi courier networks. On the other hand, there are a lot of mixed Loroi and Neridi settlements in the Tinza sector near the frontier, so there may be more opportunity for cultural exchange there.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
There will always be Loroi individuals who consume and enjoy alien media, but I'm not sure that it would rise to the level of a "sub-culture."

I'd bet that Humanity romantic fiction (and possibly porn) has some definite advantages in becoming a "sub-culture" among Loroi, even with the limitations posed by transporting the media across the gulf of space. Though I could see the Loroi government treating it as something of a restricted media.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Of course, this is all based on the idea that human broadcasts will simply propagate normally along usual channels. If they thought it would be beneficial I don't doubt a hundred different national leaders would start picking things out to send out. Remember the moment humans realized a probe would leave earths solar system they packed it full of pictures and music, even knowing the chances it would ever be seen by any kind of aliens were essentially zero.

The moment it becomes clear someone is out there to listen you're going to get literal thousands of people compiling data to be sent. It doesn't matter if it's a case of total war, someone will invariably find a way, even if it's stupid, won't work, or their time is better spent doing something else, someone will eventually start sending data out. Even if they have to scratch build something overly complicated to do a job the watcher probably doesn't care about to see material they probably won't even like.

Hell, you tell a cable company there are hundreds of billions to trillions of new people, they'll work out a system to sell them the latest low budget tv show, even without knowing currency exchange rates or cultural preferences, they'll try it just to get in first. Or whatever diplomat thinks some group could use it to gain leverage. Or a million other people and their excuses.

A complete lack of current technology at their disposal, a lack of interest in prospective customers, and the genocidal space war for the fate of the cosmos are just roadblocks, so long as there's a human out there who thinks there's a profit to be made. Obviously this isn't that human's story though, so this is largely an academic discussion.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Sure, cultural sharing is something humans like to do, but it's more a question of what the Loroi might take an interest in / already have an interest in.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
Unless you emigrate and live among the aliens (which some Loroi individuals do), it can be difficult to get a steady supply of alien media in Loroi territory; each planetary network is isolated by the lightspeed barrier, and so must wait for ship-carried updates, which can be irregular (especially in wartime) and can take weeks or months to propagate. Neridi soap operas are definitely going to be considered low-priority data by the folks running the Loroi courier networks. On the other hand, there are a lot of mixed Loroi and Neridi settlements in the Tinza sector near the frontier, so there may be more opportunity for cultural exchange there.
Well, Amazon's binge watching will be the way to go.
Modern storage capacity for data will mean that every ship will bring gigantic amounts of episodes, but the latency times after a request will be tremendous: the time of ships travelling...
But data is a rather cheap commodity, transport wise, and the light barrier means you could possibly sell the data in every system you pass.again and again.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
CF2 wrote:
Sure, cultural sharing is something humans like to do, but it's more a question of what the Loroi might take an interest in / already have an interest in.


And of course there's the issue of getting that info out there. By the time you've gone to a planet with initial material, gotten your data, and come back from human space with that material, months will have gone by.

Of course I doubt they'll sell to the Loroi as a main customer base if there are other species nearby that have equivalents. Neridi would probably be reasonably profitable as people who already understand what it is you're trying to sell or exchange.


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