Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[icekatze]

hi hi

I certainly hope I understand. Ideally, for this discussion, I'll be able to use the definition you are. So here's hoping. I'm just going to assume that when you say false, you are meaning "appearing to be the thing denoted; deliberately made or meant to deceive," rather than "not according with truth or fact; incorrect." Since I think we're still operating under the honesty not truth distinction. And as I'm sure Alex is figuring out, it can be hard to convince a Loroi that he doesn't intend to deceive, regardless of the body of speech.

I wonder what kind of techniques the Loroi use to promote their points of view, without using media. I know historically differences on points of view resulted in violence, but perhaps the Mizol have some tricks up their sleeves to keep everyone working together even when morale is slipping.

[Hālian]

Speaking of writing, with and on what materials is Loroi Trade traditionally written?

[Tamri]

I thought about this problem with a fresh mind and come to some conclusions.

Firstly, the original concept is valid, but Jim confused accents places. With the specified communication mechanism, as I wrote earlier, the concept of lies at the Loroi just could not be formed. Instead, it came just the concept of "truth - fiction" that Loroi just have to distinguish between the good. Concept of the lies emerged after the invention of speech communication, when it (falsehood) is simply made possible. And speech communication in culture Loroi actually plays the same role as the concept of writing in humans, although it is expressed differently. From here take root and all the other problems, such as automatic interlocutor suspected of lying when communicating verbally, even if the reason Loroi understands that another interlocutor simply cannot. It would be necessary to Alex to try sign language to talk to them, maybe help))

Secondly, returning to the original theme of respect to the first point: if Loroi is well understood and delimit the concept of fiction, the perception of our cultural developments will be in the form of "what it's all ... weird!" And not in the form of "it's all lie! "especially given the fact that Loroi hardly with abstract thinking. I think our literature, painting, sculpture, etc, will be for Loroi something akin to abstractionism, surrealism and similar trends for the average person today. Strange, poorly understanding, but cool. Our culture exactly will find their fans, particularly among civilians, who by "duty" has to be more flexible and responsive to external factors, rather than the military, and our similarities only make easier to bridge that gap.

The main issues that I am having, in the light of the above:
- Why for almost a thousand years, that Loroi contact with other species, social reflex "verbal speech -> lie!" at least not smoothed, but still in bloom and smells?
- If they so actively borrow (well, trying, at least) technology from neighbors why so sluggish is cultural integration, especially against the background of ever-increasing integration of the actual?

[Sweforce]

The main issues that I am having, in the light of the above:
- Why for almost a thousand years, that Loroi contact with other species, social reflex "verbal speech -> lie!" at least not smoothed, but still in bloom and smells?
- If they so actively borrow (well, trying, at least) technology from neighbors why so sluggish is cultural integration, especially against the background of ever-increasing integration of the actual?

But they do have telepathic communications with other species. They can sense them and confirm their sincerity in negotiations. Loroi themselves have an exclusive ability to send and read but they can read non loroi except humans. The human"lotai" prevent telepathic interaction with humans and add to this that loroi lotai are done with concentration to actively hide something and as such you know that you cannot trust someone that do it. As such: I cannot read you, you are hiding something so I cannot trust you.

[Tamri]

But they do have telepathic communications with other species. They can sense them and confirm their sincerity in negotiations. Loroi themselves have an exclusive ability to send and read but they can read non loroi except humans. The human"lotai" prevent telepathic interaction with humans and add to this that loroi lotai are done with concentration to actively hide something and as such you know that you cannot trust someone that do it. As such: I cannot read you, you are hiding something so I cannot trust you.

A simple understanding of what others do not may be, sooner or later anyway entrenched in the brain, and begin normal perceived, or at least easing. And the fact that Loroi herself contrasted the rest of it on the grounds that "we can so, while others are not", they realized this fact not yesterday. But 1,000 years have passed (OK, 500), and things are there. With a lifespan of at ~ 400 years, Loroi generational change should occur about once every 160-180 years, which means that from the moment of realization was to fixation as much as 2-3 generations at least. We have a much more radical ideas take root for much less time.

[Arioch]

Speaking of writing, with and on what materials is Loroi Trade traditionally written?

Pre-Fall Soia documents can be assumed to have been digital, and so are almost entirely lost. Surviving Trade writing from that era is mostly inscriptions on durable material (such as the Soia superhard ceramics). There are a few artifacts with short inscriptions, and a few monuments with more lengthy passages, but the majority of examples are small ceramic signs and nameplates. They're a bit like trilobite fossils on Earth; incredibly old, but so common you can buy one at any corner market stall.

Post-Fall Loroi methods of writing varied; some early cultures used chalk on clay or stone tablets or bits of ceramic, some carved letters into wood or stone, and some used brush and pigment on any available surface. On Deinar starting in the classical period, some cultures used a miros-skin parchment. Early Perrein cultures wrote with sori inks on animal shells.

In modern Loroi society, most documents are digital, and so printed books are very rare.

Concept of the lies emerged after the invention of speech communication, when it (falsehood) is simply made possible.

Loroi didn't invent language or speech; it was inherited from their ancestors, and has always been with them from their post-Fall point of view. According to what the Loroi know, their ancestors were part of a multi-species collective, and so speech was always necessary to communicate with non-telepathic associates. Whether speech or telepathy came first is not known; given the possibility that their ancestors may have been gene-tailored or even outright engineered, one can't assume a normal evolutionary process. And as I said before, falsehood is possible with telepathy, just more difficult. Even a purely telepathic society would understand the concept of falsehood.

It would be necessary to Alex to try sign language to talk to them, maybe help

Sign language wouldn't help. The issue is not with speech specifically, but with all non-telepathic, non-verifiable communication which allows for easier falsehood. Note that Loroi do not assume that all speech contains lies, but they recognize that it is suspect. Just as humans do. The difference is that the Loroi have a more reliable alternative.

And, as Sweforce mentions, even when speech is used in close quarters (as opposed to beyond telepathic range), Loroi can often pick up passive telepathic cues from the speaker that help them to decide whether he is telling the truth. The thing that they find suspect about Alex is that they get absolutely nothing from him.

If they so actively borrow (well, trying, at least) technology from neighbors why so sluggish is cultural integration, especially against the background of ever-increasing integration of the actual?

The Loroi co-opt elements they find useful, and discard the rest. They're eager to adopt new technologies, and they have borrowed many economic and business practices from their neighbors. But Loroi culture is insular, and without mass media, there are limited ways in which alien culture can creep into the Loroi collective consciousness. It doesn't help either that the Loroi consider themselves to be superior. On Earth, developing countries adopted European dress and customs because the Europeans were in charge of the world order. In the Union, it's Loroi who are in charge, and they feel no need to emulate their alien client states.

With a lifespan of at ~ 400 years, Loroi generational change should occur about once every 160-180 years, which means that from the moment of realization was to fixation as much as 2-3 generations at least. We have a much more radical ideas take root for much less time.

Modern Western human society has become accustomed to rapid, regular change, but this is a very recent development. Loroi society is rigid and traditionalist; it changes only when necessary, and usually with some difficulty.

[Tamri]

Loroi didn't invent language or speech; it was inherited from their ancestors, and has always been with them from their post-Fall point of view. According to what the Loroi know, their ancestors were part of a multi-species collective, and so speech was always necessary to communicate with non-telepathic associates. Whether speech or telepathy came first is not known; given the possibility that their ancestors may have been gene-tailored or even outright engineered, one can't assume a normal evolutionary process. And as I said before, falsehood is possible with telepathy, just more difficult. Even a purely telepathic society would understand the concept of falsehood.

Speech, exactly as written - is the property of culture, rather than the species. Loss of culture leads to the loss of its acquisitions. If Loroi had fallen so seriously that lost civilization and, in fact, any connection with the past in except to ruins and fragmentary memories of the few survivors - they just couldn't keep the culture. And tens of thousands of years of development, in fact, a new civilization (and hence culture) on the ruins of the old had only exacerbate it. Modern civilization to its predecessor Loroi probably will not like at all except for a few fragments.

Sign language wouldn't help. The issue is not with speech specifically, but with all non-telepathic, non-verifiable communication which allows for easier falsehood. Note that Loroi do not assume that all speech contains lies, but they recognize that it is suspect. Just as humans do. The difference is that the Loroi have a more reliable alternative.

And, as Sweforce mentions, even when speech is used in close quarters (as opposed to beyond telepathic range), Loroi can often pick up passive telepathic cues from the speaker that help them to decide whether he is telling the truth. The thing that they find suspect about Alex is that they get absolutely nothing from him.

It certainly makes sense, but in their stories were Mannadi. If the idea is actually closed to "scan" the subject's when they perceived Loroi as something irrational and instinctively repulsive - it says clearly not in their favor. Of course, it may be in the association of people with mannadi in their minds, but the idea itself - hardly. Even for Loroi.

The Loroi co-opt elements they find useful, and discard the rest. They're eager to adopt new technologies, and they have borrowed many economic and business practices from their neighbors. But Loroi culture is insular, and without mass media, there are limited ways in which alien culture can creep into the Loroi collective consciousness. It doesn't help either that the Loroi consider themselves to be superior. On Earth, developing countries adopted European dress and customs because the Europeans were in charge of the world order. In the Union, it's Loroi who are in charge, and they feel no need to emulate their alien client states.

The interaction of cultures can't go in the one direction, especially when one culture on the development of depth is clearly superior to the other. Maybe I'm too optimistic about them, but even a mere acquaintance and constant interaction is already self-other creates a certain cultural diffusion, adoption of certain aspects, thesises, or just favorite places, followed by sublimation and "fit" borrowed elements "by itself" . It is an uncontrollable natural process that can suppress some external force or gain, but not quite shut. Of course, except when distinct culture until complete incompatibility, but even in this case it is possible to take something.

[Arioch]

Speech, exactly as written - is the property of culture, rather than the species. Loss of culture leads to the loss of its acquisitions.

Spoken language predates civilization, and when civilizations fall, spoken language does not disappear. It may often be replaced when a new culture takes over, but in cases where a civilization collapses of its own accord (and is not conquered by a rival civilization), the remnants of the civilization continue to use the old spoken language. After the collapse of the Mayan civilization, the descendant peoples continued to speak the Mayan language (which continues to this day), even though they forgot how to use their written language. In the case of the fall of the Roman Empire, Latin did not disappear, but rather became localized over time into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, and the Latin alphabet is still in use, largely unchanged.

Also, fall of a civilization does not always mean complete loss of the culture. Roman culture and Christianity did not disappear when the Roman empire fell.

The interaction of cultures can't go in the one direction, especially when one culture on the development of depth is clearly superior to the other.

I don't agree with the premise that the alien cultures are "clearly superior" to Loroi culture, or at least I don't think the Loroi would see it that way. The Loroi consider themselves quite civilized, and they are the masters of their world (or at least, they were prior to the war), so they don't have any reason to see other cultures as superior.

[Tamri]

Spoken language predates civilization, and when civilizations fall, spoken language does not disappear. It may often be replaced when a new culture takes over, but in cases where a civilization collapses of its own accord (and is not conquered by a rival civilization), the remnants of the civilization continue to use the old spoken language. After the collapse of the Mayan civilization, the descendant peoples continued to speak the Mayan language (which continues to this day), even though they forgot how to use their written language. In the case of the fall of the Roman Empire, Latin did not disappear, but rather became localized over time into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, and the Latin alphabet is still in use, largely unchanged.

When the proto-Loroi civilization collapsed, there was no new invading culture to replace it.

Also, fall of a civilization does not always mean complete loss of the culture. Roman culture and Christianity did not disappear when the Roman empire fell.

This is because the latter lose very utilitarian things. The problem is that Loroi verbal language is not necessary. Moreover, I suspect that the possibility of verbal communication was lost one of the first: since the disaster of this magnitude, what can derail an interstellar civilization to substone age, the first generations to be occupied only a question of their own survival - in such conditions all the knowledge that is not actively used are lost almost immediately.

I don't agree with the premise that the alien cultures are "clearly superior" to Loroi culture, or at least I don't think the Loroi would see it that way. The Loroi consider themselves quite civilized, and they are the masters of their world (or at least, they were prior to the war), so they don't have any reason to see other cultures as superior.

In fact, of the matter is that awareness for this isn't necessary. More rich and diverse culture influences the less developed simply by the fact of his presence. As the barbarians who lived in the neighborhood of Rome, Persia and ancient Greece acquired elements of these cultures, whether they desire it or not. Their culture, too, were self-sufficient, and at that time everyone thought their values highest, but it's mutual integration is not hindered. Maybe I'm overly humanize them, ascribing human qualities like habit to drag yourself all that isn't nailed down, and integrate into their culture, but in my opinion, similar in quality to some extent should be attributed to any rational mind has reached space.

[Absalom]

Speaking of writing, with and on what materials is Loroi Trade traditionally written?

Pre-Fall Soia documents can be assumed to have been digital, and so are almost entirely lost. Surviving Trade writing from that era is mostly inscriptions on durable material (such as the Soia superhard ceramics). There are a few artifacts with short inscriptions, and a few monuments with more lengthy passages, but the majority of examples are small ceramic signs and nameplates. They're a bit like trilobite fossils on Earth; incredibly old, but so common you can buy one at any corner market stall.

How much "character drift" was there on the sister worlds? Were any interesting short-hands, dialects, or "font types" (e.g. serif for carved vs sans-serif for non-carved) developed?

What kept writing relevant? A relative lack of Listel?

In modern Loroi society, most documents are digital, and so printed books are very rare.

How common is a fear among the Loroi of losing their technology again? Have any meaningful efforts been made (not necessarily in the Loroi's recent history) to prepare for such a loss?

The Loroi co-opt elements they find useful, and discard the rest. They're eager to adopt new technologies, and they have borrowed many economic and business practices from their neighbors. But Loroi culture is insular, and without mass media, there are limited ways in which alien culture can creep into the Loroi collective consciousness. It doesn't help either that the Loroi consider themselves to be superior. On Earth, developing countries adopted European dress and customs because the Europeans were in charge of the world order. In the Union, it's Loroi who are in charge, and they feel no need to emulate their alien client states.

The interaction of cultures can't go in the one direction, especially when one culture on the development of depth is clearly superior to the other. Maybe I'm too optimistic about them, but even a mere acquaintance and constant interaction is already self-other creates a certain cultural diffusion, adoption of certain aspects, thesises, or just favorite places, followed by sublimation and "fit" borrowed elements "by itself" . It is an uncontrollable natural process that can suppress some external force or gain, but not quite shut. Of course, except when distinct culture until complete incompatibility, but even in this case it is possible to take something.

The distinction between compatible cultures and incompatible cultures is primarily perceptual, just as relative superiority is primarily perceptual. The interaction of the Norse and Inuit (or was it the other group?) illustrates this: the Inuit were far more acclimated to the Greenland environment than the Norse, but the Norse rejected an adoption of Inuit practices, due to a self-perception of the superiority of their own ways. Cultural contact might always result in a merging, but the merging isn't always large enough to be of note.

Speech, exactly as written - is the property of culture, rather than the species. Loss of culture leads to the loss of its acquisitions.

Spoken language predates civilization, and when civilizations fall, spoken language does not disappear. It may often be replaced when a new culture takes over, but in cases where a civilization collapses of its own accord (and is not conquered by a rival civilization), the remnants of the civilization continue to use the old spoken language. After the collapse of the Mayan civilization, the descendant peoples continued to speak the Mayan language (which continues to this day), even though they forgot how to use their written language. In the case of the fall of the Roman Empire, Latin did not disappear, but rather became localized over time into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, and the Latin alphabet is still in use, largely unchanged.

Also, fall of a civilization does not always mean complete loss of the culture. Roman culture and Christianity did not disappear when the Roman empire fell.

And even then, the fall of a culture doesn't necessarily mean the culture completely falls. Mycenaean Greece collapsed, but the approximate religion, and at least aspects of the culture, continued afterwards. The South American "cities of gold" area is much the same: the population barely exists in comparison to it's old presence, but a corpse of it's ruling structure has even still survived, despite the extent and populations of settlements, and even the number of settlements, collapsing within a single lifetime of first contact.

When the proto-Loroi civilization collapsed, there was no new invading culture to replace it.

This is because the latter lose very utilitarian things. The problem is that Loroi verbal language is not necessary. Moreover, I suspect that the possibility of verbal communication was lost one of the first: since the disaster of this magnitude, what can derail an interstellar civilization to substone age, the first generations to be occupied only a question of their own survival - in such conditions all the knowledge that is not actively used are lost almost immediately.

But what if it wasn't unnecessary? When the Soia fell, food supplies likely collapsed as well. The possibility of insufficient resources is very real, and the primary question would be which groups won the battle for resources. However, complete warfare isn't survivable in such a situation, so you occasionally need some way to negotiate, even if just as the opening salvo of a battle: speech would have likely proved priceless within the first one or two years. The long lifespan of the Loroi would in turn have made retention of written language more likely. Finally, supposing the existence of Listel at the time, you would have an extremely long-lived perfect memory of both written and verbal language within the first generation: if they had enough time to start child warrior bands, then they had enough time to teach those bands verbal and written language for pragmatic purposes (negotiating with neighbors that you don't trust, leaving messages for people expecting to find you somewhere that you have to leave, etc.).

Retaining both written and spoken language is actually fairly likely for the Loroi.

Maybe I'm overly humanize them, ascribing human qualities like habit to drag yourself all that isn't nailed down, and integrate into their culture, but in my opinion, similar in quality to some extent should be attributed to any rational mind has reached space.

The only similarity that should be counted upon is the ability to recognize patterns, and use them to make predictions. Even within human civilizations, anything else is not entirely reliable: if you have an insular culture, then your uptake of external elements will be drastically slowed. If you use an incompatible communication technique, then your uptake will be slowed even further.

[Arioch]

More rich and diverse culture influences the less developed simply by the fact of his presence.

Judging which is the more "rich" of two cultures seems to me to be highly subjective, but in any case culture spreads as much for reasons of power and influence rather than richness or diversity. Was British culture richer and more diverse than the culture of India? I think most Indians would say not. English language and British customs were adopted in India because of British occupation, not because the Indians envied their conquerors' rich and varied culture. I do not believe that the Loroi consider the cultures of the Barsam or the other Union races richer than their own.

How much "character drift" was there on the sister worlds? Were any interesting short-hands, dialects, or "font types" (e.g. serif for carved vs sans-serif for non-carved) developed?

There were many local dialects and variants of the script adapted to different writing media. The amount of drift varied depending on the availability of existing examples to follow. On Deinar where Soia writing examples were all around, drift was lessened, while on Perrein which had few artifacts, drift was quite dramatic.

What kept writing relevant? A relative lack of Listel?

Most Loroi during the dark ages were illiterate, and writing was mainly a curiosity known to a few artifact hunters. During the Reign of Chaos period when civilization was attempting to reassert itself (but was constantly being destroyed by barbarians), writing became a way for information to better survive the fall of each settlement; would-be technologist could find knowledge in the recently-destroyed ruins as well as the ancient ones. Eventually, scholars began to establish covert information caches, which were meaningless to the barbarians but would leave clues for later builders. As more settlements were established, writing became an important tool of trade and long-distance interaction.

How common is a fear among the Loroi of losing their technology again? Have any meaningful efforts been made (not necessarily in the Loroi's recent history) to prepare for such a loss?

As civilization began to reassert itself, societies created information caches to guard against complete loss of knowledge when a settlement was destroyed. Modern Loroi have high-tech equivalents.

[Hālian]

What does a Gallen do? (and are they warriors? if so, what color are their uniforms?)

What does a Nedatan do?

[Arioch]

What does a Gallen do? (and are they warriors? if so, what color are their uniforms?)

Gallen is the warrior caste that specializes in technology/engineering. They are responsible for civil and military engineering. Gallen uniforms are yellow, white and blue.

What does a Nedatan do?

Nedatan is the largest male philosopher order, which contains a numbers of sub-specialties, chiefly:

Nedatan Ninzadi: scholars, usually the offspring of Listel, who serve as a living repository of the sagas, which are not written down.

Nedatan Tiret: counselors who recount the sagas and discuss their meaning, in both public and private sessions, and who offer spiritual and psychological counsel. These discussions may involve direct telepathic contact via touch (even in public sessions), and the private sessions may also include sexual contact. (Insert Catholic Priest joke here)

Nedatan Timadi: sensitive telepaths who remotely monitor the distribution and well-being of the populace. They use similar techniques and devices to those also used by the Farseers.

[Hālian]

So how come Gallen are omitted from Loroi Warrior Castes: Rank Structure but Doranzer are kept on the list? O.o

[Absalom]

Gallen probably don't spend much time on combat vessels: their presence near the front is probably dominated by base duty, and possibly some salvage operations (though probably not very many). The "Starfleet Shipboard Engineer" roles you may be thinking of will be filled by Tenoin and Soroin, since they'll be more of a technician-level job than engineer-level: at most you might have a very small handful of Gallen supervising Tenoin & Soroin squads for purely maintenance-focused duties.

Geordie or Scotty might be Gallen, and their direct assistants as well, but the bulk of the Engineering crew is gonna be grunts trained as technicians.

I imagine that Gallen are probably one of the larger castes, but since Loroi warriors do a lot of things that we wouldn't expect warriors to do (such as designing houses), aren't necessarily found where you would expect. "Combat engineers" is probably a very small specialization within the caste.

[Arioch]

So how come Gallen are omitted from Loroi Warrior Castes: Rank Structure but Doranzer are kept on the list? O.o

The Gallen are still a work in progress; they're not so much "omitted" as "not put in yet."

There are Gallen mechanics and engineers aboard ship, but the head of the engineering (or "subsystems") department is usually a Soroin Nozotel.

[GeoModder]

What does a Gallen do? (and are they warriors? if so, what color are their uniforms?)

Gallen is the warrior caste that specializes in technology/engineering. They are responsible for civil and military engineering. Gallen uniforms are yellow, white and blue.

Did the caste start out as siege engine builders/engineers? Or more in logistics (chariots, carriages,...).

[Tamri]

Judging which is the more "rich" of two cultures seems to me to be highly subjective, but in any case culture spreads as much for reasons of power and influence rather than richness or diversity. Was British culture richer and more diverse than the culture of India? I think most Indians would say not. English language and British customs were adopted in India because of British occupation, not because the Indians envied their conquerors' rich and varied culture. I do not believe that the Loroi consider the cultures of the Barsam or the other Union races richer than their own.

"Rich" can be considered any culture that is able to offer you many new look at familiar things, and probably one or more of some unexpected issues. With respect to such Loroi is probably not possible to consider all the neighbors, but someone like a Barsam or Pipolsid clearly noteworthy, perhaps even Neridi, but it is even less data for him than jellyfish. And for all these time intervals that they were able to take from them, it is "some of the technology and economic schemes"? With this level of integration processes, I just can not imagine what both sides should be mind hygiene, that they would not in any way to each other is not affected.

This is one of the ways, the easiest and, as history shows, is not the most effective. Americans have suppressed the redskins and the British for Indians, exactly like many people before them did the same, BUT: the Americans eventually learned something from Indian cultures, but about the British, I generally keep quiet. A historical example, when the conqueror is actually absorbed more developed culture, even without number.

But what if it wasn't unnecessary? When the Soia fell, food supplies likely collapsed as well. The possibility of insufficient resources is very real, and the primary question would be which groups won the battle for resources. However, complete warfare isn't survivable in such a situation, so you occasionally need some way to negotiate, even if just as the opening salvo of a battle: speech would have likely proved priceless within the first one or two years. The long lifespan of the Loroi would in turn have made retention of written language more likely. Finally, supposing the existence of Listel at the time, you would have an extremely long-lived perfect memory of both written and verbal language within the first generation: if they had enough time to start child warrior bands, then they had enough time to teach those bands verbal and written language for pragmatic purposes (negotiating with neighbors that you don't trust, leaving messages for people expecting to find you somewhere that you have to leave, etc.).

Retaining both written and spoken language is actually fairly likely for the Loroi.


The only similarity that should be counted upon is the ability to recognize patterns, and use them to make predictions. Even within human civilizations, anything else is not entirely reliable: if you have an insular culture, then your uptake of external elements will be drastically slowed. If you use an incompatible communication technique, then your uptake will be slowed even further.

The distinction between compatible cultures and incompatible cultures is primarily perceptual, just as relative superiority is primarily perceptual. The interaction of the Norse and Inuit (or was it the other group?) illustrates this: the Inuit were far more acclimated to the Greenland environment than the Norse, but the Norse rejected an adoption of Inuit practices, due to a self-perception of the superiority of their own ways. Cultural contact might always result in a merging, but the merging isn't always large enough to be of note.

The catastrophe that can in a relatively short period of time to drop the whole sector is highly developed civilizations in substone century hardly involves saving a huge population, and still a compact arrangement. Even if a sufficiently large number manage to survive the catastrophe, 60-80% of them are likely to die one way or another, if only because of the banal hunger and disease. And if Listel as a percentage of the whole of the Early Empire was about as much as we see them in the comics - they simply could not just as well stay a lot. Five teachers can not, not what to teach - even just to keep from degradation five thousand of his countrymen. Especially because 95% of their knowledge after this will probably simply not in demand, and sharply increased mortality and life expectancy catastrophically fallen, likely replacement in the preparation of replacement only to transfer critical needed knowledge and skills. And somehow I doubt that it will fall into a verbal communication.

You can even try on the result: If Loroi (not to mention all the other Soia-Liron, who, not having the disadvantages of Loroi, also somehow not particularly in a hurry with restoration) remains enough teachers to keep their society from total collapse and degradation, recovery would not take by 200k years. And just we seeing that there is - it means they were not enough. With all the ensuing consequences.

Insurmountable obstacle really is not much, if communication and understanding are possible, everything else is somehow attach with time. 500-600 years for "grinding" should be enough with the head and gills, but judging by what they see, it seems that this thousand years the neighbors have lived in factual isolation, not talking quite closely.


Contact and closer mutual integration is slightly different things.

[Arioch]

Did the caste start out as siege engine builders/engineers? Or more in logistics (chariots, carriages,...).

The forerunners of the Gallen started to differentiate from the infantry warrior castes with the introduction of explosives and steam power, operating and maintaining weapons and acting as combat engineers and sappers. Prior to the introduction of firearms, the Deinar Loroi didn't engage much in siege warfare. The presence of telekinetic troops limited the effectiveness of TL2-3 missile weapons, and there were no suitable animals to ride or pull chariots or carts, so right up through TL4 most engagements were out in the open field between ranked melee infantry.

[Hālian]

How does loroi society view people who are going bald/have thinning hair/etc? Or are those not problems for them?