Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

Remember that the Loroi warrior castes comprise at least 50% of the population while they control every part of their society. For all intents and purposes they shouldn't be considered an aspect of Loroi society, they are Loroi society.

In contrast the Japanese militarists and the Japanese militarist complex were a by product of the quite dramatic ascent of Japanese society from a medieval feudal society to a full blown industrial world power in less than 100 years. If one examines Japanese internal struggles from the yearly 20th century until the end of WW1 they will see plenty of pluralism and sound foundations for a proper democratic future. The problem was that the militarists actually got shit done, with victories at the Sino-Japanese war of 1894 and at the Russian-Japanese 1904 and the annexation of Korea. Japan was still a young industrialist state at the time and this allowed the militarist to seize political power by using the military's victories abroad.

What happened between the end of WW1 and the beginning of WW2 was the establishment of militarism as the de-facto deciding party in regards to domestic and foreign policies, a small clique that fully controlled all aspects of Japanese life not through popular support (although it had that at times) but through brute force methods and using the natural disposition of the Japanese psyche to not question and combat higher authority.

In order for the Loroi to suffer a social shift that will force them to abandon their militarist lifestyle, they don't need to just suffer a defeat. Defeat is part of war and they know it, they need to see their entire social construct collapse around them in a way that they cannot call it anything but inevitable.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

dragoongfa wrote:In order for the Loroi to suffer a social shift that will force them to abandon their militarist lifestyle, they don't need to just suffer a defeat. Defeat is part of war and they know it, they need to see their entire social construct collapse around them in a way that they cannot call it anything but inevitable.
I agree there but stress to their society may make individuals prone to leave for greener pastures. Razor One actually wrote a small story of a "deviant" loroi in my now mostly forgotten "in loroi town" thread. I would link to it if I could but I have no idea how to link to a specific post in a thread so here is a link to the tread itself.

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... f=4&t=1041

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

Sweforce wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:In order for the Loroi to suffer a social shift that will force them to abandon their militarist lifestyle, they don't need to just suffer a defeat. Defeat is part of war and they know it, they need to see their entire social construct collapse around them in a way that they cannot call it anything but inevitable.
I agree there but stress to their society may make individuals prone to leave for greener pastures. Razor One actually wrote a small story of a "deviant" loroi in my now mostly forgotten "in loroi town" thread. I would link to it if I could but I have no idea how to link to a specific post in a thread so here is a link to the tread itself.

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... f=4&t=1041
Yes, I remember reading it.

Migration happens for two reasons, one is for a better economic future and the other its as you say to avoid some societal issues. However in the second case its the ones who cannot conform who leave first and in greater numbers so that means that the Loroi society in general would be strengthened if the deviants who had issues with it left.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

dragoongfa wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:In order for the Loroi to suffer a social shift that will force them to abandon their militarist lifestyle, they don't need to just suffer a defeat. Defeat is part of war and they know it, they need to see their entire social construct collapse around them in a way that they cannot call it anything but inevitable.
I agree there but stress to their society may make individuals prone to leave for greener pastures. Razor One actually wrote a small story of a "deviant" loroi in my now mostly forgotten "in loroi town" thread. I would link to it if I could but I have no idea how to link to a specific post in a thread so here is a link to the tread itself.

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... f=4&t=1041
Yes, I remember reading it.

Migration happens for two reasons, one is for a better economic future and the other its as you say to avoid some societal issues. However in the second case its the ones who cannot conform who leave first and in greater numbers so that means that the Loroi society in general would be strengthened if the deviants who had issues with it left.
Indeed and as an alternative to harsh actions against "deviants", society could even see it in a positive light if they leave. That is until to many leave and you get a brain drain problem. People building a viable alternative in a stable form may be seen as a threat and as such, they may prevent males from leaving. Interesting thou, if a stable alternate culture are built up somewhere and the main loroi culture end up exterminated by the umiak, then the "deviants" would set new norm. Waves of refugees from the old system could then lead to conflicts. An interesting aspect of this would be if the warrior castes where exterminated and only the civilians survived, what would happen then? Would they rebuild the warrior casts or choose an new path entirely?

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

I think that the Loroi civilian would choose to reinstate the warrior castes or some form of them if a glaringly obvious better alternative wasn't there for them. Remember that the warrior castes built an Empire in which the Loroi reign supreme and that includes the civilians. They may be second rate but they are still slightly above the non Loroi Union members. See it as a form of chauvinism and species supremacism.Much like Japan tried to reinstate samurai values on its military even after they hunted down every last samurai.

On the other hand, if the Umiak win I doubt that any Loroi would be allowed to remain free. At best they would become Mannadi v2.0 with their populations limited on a handful of planets and with far stricter population controls. And that's only if the Umiak will have a use for them.

Krulle
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:14 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Krulle »

Sweforce wrote: I would link to it if I could but I have no idea how to link to a specific post in a thread so here is a link to the tread itself.

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... f=4&t=1041
Next to the post title is a small circle with a triangle in it (pointing to the right, right of the poster's name). That links to the post directly.

Your post is http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 458#p20458, now I'll search your thread for the one you want...

Edit: did you want this one? http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 646#p18646
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

Krulle wrote:
Sweforce wrote: I would link to it if I could but I have no idea how to link to a specific post in a thread so here is a link to the tread itself.

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... f=4&t=1041
Next to the post title is a small circle with a triangle in it (pointing to the right, right of the poster's name). That links to the post directly.

Your post is http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 458#p20458, now I'll search your thread for the one you want...

Edit: did you want this one? http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 646#p18646
Like this then http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 466#p20466

Thanks. This is useful since I have been having this problem on other forums as well.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Sweforce wrote:This leads to, how common is it for individual loroi to reject the cast system entirely and take of to live among the allied races and form an alternate culture among them? I imagine that most that do this would be disgruntled civilians and indeed, if regular contact with humanity are opened up, some may even head over here for this reason. If so, how tolerated are these people? Are the allies pressured to keep them down? Are there any males among them? Would they arrest a pregnant loroi bearing a male fetus if she was about to defect in order to prevent the creation of an self sustaining alternate loroi culture?
A number of Loroi live abroad in alien societies; most of these are civilian females engaged in foreign business. Some maintain Loroi traditions, while some have become enamored of the local alien cultures, but they are not "deviants." The kind of deviation I was referring to is criminality, insanity, addiction, and so on; the inability to live peacefully and constructively with others. Alien societies are no more friendly or welcoming to destructive individuals than the Loroi are, and would have no reason to invite or permit the immigration of such people. But this is entirely a matter for the alien governments; the Loroi government has no reason to restrict emigration or care how expatriate Loroi live. The Loroi government doesn't care if a group of expats tries to set up their own society in a foreign nation, but the government of the host nation might have something to say about it.

Your remark about "keep them down" implies that the Loroi deliberately and systematically oppress their own people, and I don't think that's the case. Loroi civilians are restricted from military and government service, but they can engage in entrepreneurial pursuits, start businesses and potentially become very wealthy, which Loroi warriors are not allowed to do. A Loroi civilian living in an alien society would have more or less the same rights as one living in Loroi society; as an alien she still would not be allowed to participate in government, and she still wouldn't have reproductive freedom (as there would be even fewer males to breed with).

Loroi males are legally wards of the state, so the government could prevent their emigration if it had reason to. Males are not encouraged to travel abroad, and rarely have independent means of travel, so it would be very unusual for a male to have the opportunity or desire to emigrate. I'm sure there must be a few that have done so, but the number must be very small. In a case where a Loroi female absconded with a male to a foreign nation, the Loroi government would probably ask to have him back. The case of a pregnant Loroi carrying a male child is an interesting dilemma; whether the government would attempt to stop her or later ask to have the boy back would depend on the situation and why the female was leaving. As to the notion of creating an alternate Loroi culture, it would take more than one or two males to create a reproductively viable population, and again I think the government of the host nation might have concerns about a group of Loroi immigrants trying to create their own utopia within its own borders.

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Why, at their tech level, do Loroi not clone/tube-grow a load of males to even it out?
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

RedDwarfIV wrote:Why, at their tech level, do Loroi not clone/tube-grow a load of males to even it out?
Vat-growing a person isn't possible at this tech level. They could tinker with the conception process to make more embryos male, but why would they want to do that? There are enough males to keep all of the females constantly pregnant (if that was what they wanted), and if there weren't they could just use artificial insemination. The Loroi don't have a problem with how their system works. They consider the small number of males to be a good thing, since they're essentially economic dead weight.

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Arioch wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:Why, at their tech level, do Loroi not clone/tube-grow a load of males to even it out?
Vat-growing a person isn't possible at this tech level. They could tinker with the conception process to make more embryos male, but why would they want to do that? There are enough males to keep all of the females constantly pregnant (if that was what they wanted), and if there weren't they could just use artificial insemination. The Loroi don't have a problem with how their system works. They consider the small number of males to be a good thing, since they're essentially economic dead weight.
Even at our tech level it would be possible to take a nucleus from a male, and put it in an egg cell (preferably Loroi or a closely related animal, but iSCNT is a thing too) and you'd get a clone. To avoid age problems, you'd use a young male. Of course, SCNT is very resource and time intensive, and we haven't figured out a way to automate it. But it would be possible. You'd then grow the embryo in a surrogate.

Would this, or a more advanced version of it, still be unfeasible?
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

RedDwarfIV wrote:Even at our tech level it would be possible to take a nucleus from a male, and put it in an egg cell (preferably Loroi or a closely related animal, but iSCNT is a thing too) and you'd get a clone. To avoid age problems, you'd use a young male. Of course, SCNT is very resource and time intensive, and we haven't figured out a way to automate it. But it would be possible. You'd then grow the embryo in a surrogate.
Sure, you can clone a male embryo, or manipulate a female embryo to make it male. But why would you want to?

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Arioch wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:Even at our tech level it would be possible to take a nucleus from a male, and put it in an egg cell (preferably Loroi or a closely related animal, but iSCNT is a thing too) and you'd get a clone. To avoid age problems, you'd use a young male. Of course, SCNT is very resource and time intensive, and we haven't figured out a way to automate it. But it would be possible. You'd then grow the embryo in a surrogate.
Sure, you can clone a male embryo, or manipulate a female embryo to make it male. But why would you want to?
For the possibility of the equalising, or at least reducing the imbalance a bit, of the female and male populations, and reducing the competition for males. More access to males could mean more babies. If you used non-Loroi surragates, you could do it without affecting how many Loroi are off work having maternity leave too badly.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

RedDwarfIV wrote:If you used non-Loroi surragates, you could do it without affecting how many Loroi are off work having maternity leave too badly.
You mean human sex partners and insemination with loroi sperm? By the way is it safe for a human to have sex with a loroi from a biochemical point of view? I was thinking about things like bodyfluids being toxic to the partner.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

To have someone non Loroi become a surrogate that someone would have to both have the same biochemistry and their immune system recognize the embryos as their own.

I think that the gender imbalance works quite well for the Loroi in regards to population growth. Too well when you think about how 80% to 90% of the population would probably be pregnant if the males had anything to say about it.

@Sweforce

The only way that some aliens bodily fluids would be dangerous would be via an allergy, being deliberately poisonous or by being too alkaline or acidic.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

dragoongfa wrote:To have someone non Loroi become a surrogate that someone would have to both have the same biochemistry and their immune system recognize the embryos as their own.

I think that the gender imbalance works quite well for the Loroi in regards to population growth. Too well when you think about how 80% to 90% of the population would probably be pregnant if the males had anything to say about it.

@Sweforce

The only way that some aliens bodily fluids would be dangerous would be via an allergy, being deliberately poisonous or by being too alkaline or acidic.
There are stuff that are lethal to some people but commonly harmless, this is an allergy but if it is the reverse you got people with an immunity. Now, there are things that are lethal for some animals that are harmless for humans and vice versa something that leads to tragedies when less knowledgeable pet owners feed their charge some treat from the table. Add in aliens to the mix and it get worse. Loroi may look human, the basic blueprint are the same but biochemically they are indeed totally alien. From a biochemical point of view we have more in common with a typical slug then a loroi. There is a reason Alex get the cramps trying to eat loroi food. It is thus entirely possibly that let's say loroi saliva include an enzyme that is harmful to humans. So if Alex would tougne kiss Beryl, one of them, or both may end up in the infirmary with repository problems due to a swollen throat or something. Behave like captain Kirk and you may end up in trouble.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

Yes, I get what you mean. The problem is that even when dogs and cats eat chocolate (which can be lethal to them) it ain't any short of toxicity on them that does the killing but the animal's own digestive system that goes berserk due to the cocoa seed stimulants. This is down to the fact that dogs and cats have carnivorous digestive tracts while chocolate is basically the combination of cocoa seeds and milk. Cocoa holds a lot of stimulants which combined with its plant nature make it impossible for a carnivorous animal to metabolize it, it's something that their stomachs can't handle. Dogs and cats do tend to consume some light plants in order to get some plant fiber in their digestive tracks but that doesn't mean that they can eat hard plant based food like cocoa.

Farm animals like pigs, goats, sheep and horses can eat cocoa. They do tend to get uppity due to the stimulants (the same way a human does after their first ever strong coffee) but its perfectly safe for them.

What you describe however isn't the consumption of Loroi bodily fluids but what their effects would be during a sexual encounter, which comes down to allergies, poison and alkaline/acidic nature of the fluids in question.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Krulle
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:14 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Krulle »

RedDwarfIV wrote:
Arioch wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:Even at our tech level it would be possible to take a nucleus from a male, and put it in an egg cell (preferably Loroi or a closely related animal, but iSCNT is a thing too) and you'd get a clone. To avoid age problems, you'd use a young male. Of course, SCNT is very resource and time intensive, and we haven't figured out a way to automate it. But it would be possible. You'd then grow the embryo in a surrogate.
Sure, you can clone a male embryo, or manipulate a female embryo to make it male. But why would you want to?
For the possibility of the equalising, or at least reducing the imbalance a bit, of the female and male populations, and reducing the competition for males. More access to males could mean more babies. If you used non-Loroi surragates, you could do it without affecting how many Loroi are off work having maternity leave too badly.
[color=#FF0000]Arioch[/color] wrote: Vat-growing a person isn't possible at this tech level. They could tinker with the conception process to make more embryos male, but why would they want to do that? There are enough males to keep all of the females constantly pregnant (if that was what they wanted), and if there weren't they could just use artificial insemination. The Loroi don't have a problem with how their system works. They consider the small number of males to be a good thing, since they're essentially economic dead weight.
The Loroi male do need to do a bit work to get emancipated... But then, if everything is provided, and your psyche does not need to be recognised as equal, why would you put in the effort?

I find the quote of 1:8 still not high enough to warrant a social development excluding the males from everything outside closed doors. Or the evolutionary "need to"
I mean, for reproduction purposes, if a man changed women once a month, she could be pregnant, and he would be able to impregnate easily 12 a year...
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Krulle wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:
Arioch wrote:Sure, you can clone a male embryo, or manipulate a female embryo to make it male. But why would you want to?
For the possibility of the equalising, or at least reducing the imbalance a bit, of the female and male populations, and reducing the competition for males. More access to males could mean more babies. If you used non-Loroi surragates, you could do it without affecting how many Loroi are off work having maternity leave too badly.
[color=#FF0000]Arioch[/color] wrote: Vat-growing a person isn't possible at this tech level. They could tinker with the conception process to make more embryos male, but why would they want to do that? There are enough males to keep all of the females constantly pregnant (if that was what they wanted), and if there weren't they could just use artificial insemination. The Loroi don't have a problem with how their system works. They consider the small number of males to be a good thing, since they're essentially economic dead weight.
The Loroi male do need to do a bit work to get emancipated... But then, if everything is provided, and your psyche does not need to be recognised as equal, why would you put in the effort?

I find the quote of 1:8 still not high enough to warrant a social development excluding the males from everything outside closed doors. Or the evolutionary "need to"
I mean, for reproduction purposes, if a man changed women once a month, she could be pregnant, and he would be able to impregnate easily 12 a year...
punches self in face in effort to correct eyesight
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

User avatar
Siber
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:10 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Siber »

It's worth mentioning, though I can't find an exact quote about it in the inside I'm reasonably sure this is accurate, that the Loroi gender ratio is much closer to 1:10 and the 1:8 quote in the comic is a product of the Loroi base 8 numbering system biasing their causal speech.
Atomic Space Race, a hard sci-fi orbital mechanics puzzle game.
Homeworld Fulcrum, a Homeworld Remastered Mod

Post Reply