Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Tamri]

If you're referring to the dialogue about Annie Hall, that was meant to be humorous.

Yeah, especially against the background of what we have in front of any artwork is usually mandatory prefix that this product is a figment, and the author does not claim to authenticity and realism of all written / filmed on. For the slow-witted but literate, so to speak ...

[icekatze]

hi hi

I think I understand in a way that makes sense now. When a Loroi imagines something, like perhaps an awesome thing that they might, or might not, do in the future, they would generally keep that imagined idea to themselves?

It might be culturally uncouth to say: "Hey, I had this cool idea. Like going on a space roadtrip next week and roasting spacemallows, can you imagine how fun that would be?" (Or whatever it is civilian Loroi get to do to raise their morale.)

Perhaps if human authors will want to make inroads into the Loroi market, they will have to start out small, and with semi-plausible second-person-perspective stories.

[Tamri]

hi hi

I think I understand in a way that makes sense now. When a Loroi imagines something, like perhaps an awesome thing that they might, or might not, do in the future, they would generally keep that imagined idea to themselves?

It might be culturally uncouth to say: "Hey, I had this cool idea. Like going on a space roadtrip next week and roasting spacemallows, can you imagine how fun that would be?" (Or whatever it is civilian Loroi get to do to raise their morale.)

Perhaps if human authors will want to make inroads into the Loroi market, they will have to start out small, and with semi-plausible second-person-perspective stories.

In other words, Loroi strong visual-shaped thinking and poor abstract. What follows from the nature of their mode of communication and attitudes that shape these qualities. Aggravated, in theory, should be the fact that all the Loroi home worlds except Perrein - quite safe, which further inhibits the development of abstract thinking, which, as I wrote above, it is necessary to survive in an aggressive fauna. For the same reasons, I think that Loroi lived on Perrein should be more like the humans in terms of thinking.

Incidentally, this explains why they are so bad and slowly progress, up to causes of the matter as they still managed to go into space. However, the question of why so slow to progressing all the other remains open.

[Absalom]

It might be culturally uncouth to say: "Hey, I had this cool idea. Like going on a space roadtrip next week and roasting spacemallows, can you imagine how fun that would be?" (Or whatever it is civilian Loroi get to do to raise their morale.)

Perhaps if human authors will want to make inroads into the Loroi market, they will have to start out small, and with semi-plausible second-person-perspective stories.

Culturally uncouth would definitely be saying that they actually did it. Saying that they wish they could do it, or had a dream of that sort, or think it would be cool to do it, is probably only uncouth in some communities.

Trying to get Loroi to accept fiction by weening them onto it with small, semi-plausible second-person-perspective stories would be uncouth. Why? Because the authors are trying to corrupt them into accepting fiction.

If authors want to make inroads to the Loroi market, then they need to do biographies, histories, and pieces that clearly are designed to be exploratory. And even then, the telepathic version will be more popular. Full-motion space sims might have some market space, but even then you'd probably need to make it a historical space-sim for it to be popularly accepted.

If you want a market for fiction, go bother the Barsam & Neridi instead of annoying the Loroi, your strategy here shows every sign of being in denial about market forces.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Absalom, the core piece of the example was not the part where the person says, "I had this idea," but the part where the person says, "can you imagine how fun that would be?" A piece of fiction does not require a preface that says "I did this thing," in order to work.

Whether the Loroi says they did it, or are just imagining doing it and have not yet tried it, both cases are fiction.

From what I can tell, authors aren't going to need to do anything different from what they're already doing in order to make literature for the Barsam and the Neridi, or to make historical literature, which we already make in abundance. Not sure why the Barsam and Neridi are relevant to the discussion in the first place, since there is nothing that says humans can't write for the Loroi and the Barsam and Neridi at the same time. It is a objectively larger market, for one thing. Second of all, some artists demand a challenge.

Perhaps, lacking telepathy, some humans might want to try to convey something in their minds a little bit more fully than they can with just short, literal sentences.

[Arioch]

It might be culturally uncouth to say: "Hey, I had this cool idea. Like going on a space roadtrip next week and roasting spacemallows, can you imagine how fun that would be?" (Or whatever it is civilian Loroi get to do to raise their morale.) Perhaps if human authors will want to make inroads into the Loroi market, they will have to start out small, and with semi-plausible second-person-perspective stories.

There is nothing dishonest or uncouth about positing a hypothetical or saying "I have an idea," well... unless you broadcast the message to everyone around you. Your buddies may be interested in your spacemallow roasting plan, but the folks over in section D really don't give damn. I don't agree at all that an idea or a speculation constitutes fiction. Fiction is the telling of a story which is not true, but in a way that purports to be true. Saying, "Dick and Jane had fun roasting spacemallows yesterday," when they didn't, is fiction, and is a falsehood. Saying, "Imagine how fun it would be to roast spacemallows!" is not a falsehood, and it's also not fiction.

Loroi do not have a media culture, and that include books; most Loroi don't read for pleasure. Unless an alien author learns to use telepathy, he is going to have a difficult time penetrating Loroi culture. Even if the alien author could somehow use telepathy, he would run into the same problems of trying to use a literal medium to tell a false story that can be successfully retold. In telepathy, each statement is tagged with metadata about where the information came from and what the sender thinks about it, so you can try to tell a fictional story using "imagine if" attached to every line, but on retelling of a story which the sender knows to be false might it might go something like this:

"It was a dark and stormy night in London on Earth in 1830 CE according to Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, except that he is lying and I know this never happened. The hypothetical rain fell in torrents except at occasional intervals when it was checked by a violent gust of hypothetical wind which actually did not sweep up the streets, rattle along the housetops, and fiercely agitate the scanty flame of the hypothetical lamps that struggled against the non-existent darkness, even though Mr. Bulwer-Lytton said it did, but he is a liar and so I don't know why I'm telling you this."

[cacambo43]

Ok, so say we assume the Loroi are not going to/cannot devote any resources to human extinction or enslavement. In 2160, does humanity have the bio-technical ability to study Loroi brains and, even if not understanding the mechanism, read or transmit thoughts to and from Loroi? Would Loroi automatically assume any telepathic thought they received to be truthful? If humanity could send untruthful thoughts to Loroi, would they automatically be suspicious and reject them, or would they reflexively assume they were true?

CJSF

[Tamri]

In this case, the question: Where Loroi get the concept of lies, if they aren't able to lie using Sansai? Why would they give off separately at the mental conversation "that's true", "it's not true," if in a conversation all the same it is clear where the truth, a lie, and where figment? And finally, as a pure figment correlates with a lie? Lie - the deliberate distortion of the truth and the figment it is irrelevant. Everyone knows that the tale is figment, but they are not a lie. A lie, for example, answer "no" to the question "did you get my pen?" when you just took it - a lie, but it isn't figment.

[icekatze]

hi hi

That is a reasonable working definition of fiction, and certainly helps explain some of my confusion. English has some broader definitions for fiction, which I had been working from, so I'm going to try to break those definitions off from the trunk.

Fiction: noun.
1. The class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form.
2. Works of this class.
3. Something feigned, invented, or imagined.
4. The act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.
5. An imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.

I personally think that proposing a hypothetical future state for the purposes of getting others to buy into the potential future state as a goal worth working towards counts as fiction, at least in the ways that I think are relevant here, but for the sake of argument, I'll say that it isn't fiction. (Author's intent is only half the experience for Humans, but is perhaps more relevant for Loroi.)

Lets say some human writes a story, which isn't going to be fiction, but also isn't going to be historical and meets the third criteria of being invented or imagined. Call it a "propositional tale." It can be prefaced with "this didn't happen, but wouldn't it be good if something like this did happen in the future?" It could be a speculative story about Humans and Loroi getting along better than they currently do; it could be a desperate plea for a humanity who was forced to ally with the Umiak, now trying to convince the Loroi that they are worth keeping around, or whatever.

Now I'm not expecting that Loroi in general would want to read such a story, that much is clear, and I'm not even sure that the Loroi authorities would allow something that tries to suggest a course of action for a mass of their citizens. But even given the extremely insular nature of Loroi culture in general, is it possible that some number of Loroi that live on the fringes, maybe part of the ambassadorial staff for Terra (assuming Humans and Loroi get along at all) will read the story and pass it along telepathically to others, who might or might not judge it interesting based on their own viewpoint rather than strictly its honesty? (I remember reading that the Barsam religion does have some Loroi adherents, so I'm guessing that fringe subcultures exist in the Loroi culture at large. Should it be assumed that any Barsam religious texts are propagated by word of mouth? Or more precisely, word of telepathy?)

At least in terms of the Loroi not being interested in mass media, the distinction between literary fiction and "propositional tales," and other kinds of imaginary stories, perhaps does help illustrate (I hope I'm getting this right, at least) where the Loroi are coming from. I am reminded of some of the very common techniques that present day humans use to advertise things. A common tactic in advertisements is to try to establish an emotional connection or relationship with the viewer, by suggesting that the company shares the viewer's values and outlook, ideally forming a lasting brand loyalty. (Rodeos and cowboys don't have anything directly related to pickup trucks, but rodeos and cowboys sure do display prominently in advertisements for pickup trucks, for example.)

This gets me thinking about just what kind of advertising strategies the Loroi might employ. They're not a media culture, so 20th century advertising campaigns are probably right out. They're probably not going to trust a stranger, especially without telepathy. (Not sure to what degree authority figures can just directly order civilians to do certain things, outside of supporting the war effort.) I would imagine that taking the angle of "We can demonstrate that we understand your concerns, and that demonstration should provide some level of confidence that we are not incompetent," would probably work a little better than trying to establish a faux personal connection. But I also wonder if 21st century style viral meme campaigns would be a more effective advertising strategy for Loroi businesses. Rather than trying to put billboards or something in front of everything, they might try to come up with something that is catchy enough to be shared down the line, in a word of mouth kind of way. Might there be a Loroi version of fuzzy cat pictures that occasionally make the rounds, but not in a centrally directed way? Or maybe a telepathic slogan that is, in some way catchy? (Humans at least, don't even need to believe claims in ads for the ads to be effective, simply making the brand salient can be enough.)

I guess I'm not really sure what degree of personal decisions civilian Loroi have in their daily lives to begin with, and it's probably not super relevant to the comic itself. I just find this kind of stuff really intriguing, and it makes me wonder.

[Arioch]

Where Loroi get the concept of lies, if they aren't able to lie using Sansai?

It is possible to deliberately lie using telepathy, but it is very difficult because of the large amount of information across multiple channels that must be convincingly transmitted. However, even an honest statement can turn out to be inaccurate; witnesses can be mistaken, and conclusions can be wrong. A sensible Loroi will not implicitly believe something just because she was told it via telepathy, but a telepathic report from a trusted source will be considered as strong evidence.

But Loroi do not always communicate exclusively via telepathy. Speech or writing is used when parties are beyond telepathic range, or when the parties do not trust one another. Because telepathy is such an intimate form of communication, it requires a certain amount of trust to use at full bandwidth, as it opens both parties to the potential of giving the other party too much information, or even opening oneself to telepathic attack. For much of Loroi history during which the Loroi were fighting one another, official diplomacy between adversaries was most often conducted via writing or speech. Since successful diplomacy involves various forms of less-than-full-disclosure, this business was more than a little distasteful to traditional warriors, and so was eventually passed off to a specialized diplomatic corps. As Loroi united against a common alien foe, it became increasingly rare (and increasingly insulting) to refuse a telepathic connection with another Loroi, but the requirements of long distance communication mean that telepathy cannot be used in all situations, and so even a traditionalist like Stillstorm must use speech to give commands to distant units. Distance can be used by a wily Loroi to avoid close contact with someone to whom she'd have to lie telepathically, allowing her to use words instead. The spoken word is an important tool, even though it is often used to avoid being completely honest.

In 2160, does humanity have the bio-technical ability to study Loroi brains and, even if not understanding the mechanism, read or transmit thoughts to and from Loroi?

Since none of the major combatants (Loroi included) have been able to artificially decipher or reproduce telepathy, it seems very unlikely that humanity would be able to succeed where those with much more advanced technology have failed.

I personally think that proposing a hypothetical future state for the purposes of getting others to buy into the potential future state as a goal worth working towards counts as fiction, at least in the ways that I think are relevant here, but for the sake of argument, I'll say that it isn't fiction.

You can define fiction any way you like, as long as you understand that when I say "Loroi don't do fiction," I mean something very specific, and I hope by now I've made clear what that is. In Loroi culture, it is not considered acceptable to make up and disseminate tales which are deliberately false.

But even given the extremely insular nature of Loroi culture in general, is it possible that some number of Loroi that live on the fringes, maybe part of the ambassadorial staff for Terra (assuming Humans and Loroi get along at all) will read the story and pass it along telepathically to others, who might or might not judge it interesting based on their own viewpoint rather than strictly its honesty? (I remember reading that the Barsam religion does have some Loroi adherents, so I'm guessing that fringe subcultures exist in the Loroi culture at large. Should it be assumed that any Barsam religious texts are propagated by word of mouth? Or more precisely, word of telepathy?)

The Barsam have religious texts, but their sermons are mainly vocal (actually, musical), and so Loroi would most likely experience them through speech. The preacher certainly believes what he is saying to true (unless he's a charlatan), and so the sermon is not, for our purposes, a work of fiction. A Loroi who heard the sermon and believed it, and retold the content of the sermon telepathically, would have to include where the information came from and how she came to her conclusion; i.e., she heard it spoken from an alien cleric. You can convince a Loroi of something through argument in the same way as you can a human, but just because Loroi A believes something to be true does not mean that Loroi B will believe it when told telepathically.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I certainly hope I understand. Ideally, for this discussion, I'll be able to use the definition you are. So here's hoping. I'm just going to assume that when you say false, you are meaning "appearing to be the thing denoted; deliberately made or meant to deceive," rather than "not according with truth or fact; incorrect." Since I think we're still operating under the honesty not truth distinction. And as I'm sure Alex is figuring out, it can be hard to convince a Loroi that he doesn't intend to deceive, regardless of the body of speech.

I wonder what kind of techniques the Loroi use to promote their points of view, without using media. I know historically differences on points of view resulted in violence, but perhaps the Mizol have some tricks up their sleeves to keep everyone working together even when morale is slipping.

[Hālian]

Speaking of writing, with and on what materials is Loroi Trade traditionally written?

[Tamri]

I thought about this problem with a fresh mind and come to some conclusions.

Firstly, the original concept is valid, but Jim confused accents places. With the specified communication mechanism, as I wrote earlier, the concept of lies at the Loroi just could not be formed. Instead, it came just the concept of "truth - fiction" that Loroi just have to distinguish between the good. Concept of the lies emerged after the invention of speech communication, when it (falsehood) is simply made possible. And speech communication in culture Loroi actually plays the same role as the concept of writing in humans, although it is expressed differently. From here take root and all the other problems, such as automatic interlocutor suspected of lying when communicating verbally, even if the reason Loroi understands that another interlocutor simply cannot. It would be necessary to Alex to try sign language to talk to them, maybe help))

Secondly, returning to the original theme of respect to the first point: if Loroi is well understood and delimit the concept of fiction, the perception of our cultural developments will be in the form of "what it's all ... weird!" And not in the form of "it's all lie! "especially given the fact that Loroi hardly with abstract thinking. I think our literature, painting, sculpture, etc, will be for Loroi something akin to abstractionism, surrealism and similar trends for the average person today. Strange, poorly understanding, but cool. Our culture exactly will find their fans, particularly among civilians, who by "duty" has to be more flexible and responsive to external factors, rather than the military, and our similarities only make easier to bridge that gap.

The main issues that I am having, in the light of the above:
- Why for almost a thousand years, that Loroi contact with other species, social reflex "verbal speech -> lie!" at least not smoothed, but still in bloom and smells?
- If they so actively borrow (well, trying, at least) technology from neighbors why so sluggish is cultural integration, especially against the background of ever-increasing integration of the actual?

[Sweforce]

The main issues that I am having, in the light of the above:
- Why for almost a thousand years, that Loroi contact with other species, social reflex "verbal speech -> lie!" at least not smoothed, but still in bloom and smells?
- If they so actively borrow (well, trying, at least) technology from neighbors why so sluggish is cultural integration, especially against the background of ever-increasing integration of the actual?

But they do have telepathic communications with other species. They can sense them and confirm their sincerity in negotiations. Loroi themselves have an exclusive ability to send and read but they can read non loroi except humans. The human"lotai" prevent telepathic interaction with humans and add to this that loroi lotai are done with concentration to actively hide something and as such you know that you cannot trust someone that do it. As such: I cannot read you, you are hiding something so I cannot trust you.

[Tamri]

But they do have telepathic communications with other species. They can sense them and confirm their sincerity in negotiations. Loroi themselves have an exclusive ability to send and read but they can read non loroi except humans. The human"lotai" prevent telepathic interaction with humans and add to this that loroi lotai are done with concentration to actively hide something and as such you know that you cannot trust someone that do it. As such: I cannot read you, you are hiding something so I cannot trust you.

A simple understanding of what others do not may be, sooner or later anyway entrenched in the brain, and begin normal perceived, or at least easing. And the fact that Loroi herself contrasted the rest of it on the grounds that "we can so, while others are not", they realized this fact not yesterday. But 1,000 years have passed (OK, 500), and things are there. With a lifespan of at ~ 400 years, Loroi generational change should occur about once every 160-180 years, which means that from the moment of realization was to fixation as much as 2-3 generations at least. We have a much more radical ideas take root for much less time.

[Arioch]

Speaking of writing, with and on what materials is Loroi Trade traditionally written?

Pre-Fall Soia documents can be assumed to have been digital, and so are almost entirely lost. Surviving Trade writing from that era is mostly inscriptions on durable material (such as the Soia superhard ceramics). There are a few artifacts with short inscriptions, and a few monuments with more lengthy passages, but the majority of examples are small ceramic signs and nameplates. They're a bit like trilobite fossils on Earth; incredibly old, but so common you can buy one at any corner market stall.

Post-Fall Loroi methods of writing varied; some early cultures used chalk on clay or stone tablets or bits of ceramic, some carved letters into wood or stone, and some used brush and pigment on any available surface. On Deinar starting in the classical period, some cultures used a miros-skin parchment. Early Perrein cultures wrote with sori inks on animal shells.

In modern Loroi society, most documents are digital, and so printed books are very rare.

Concept of the lies emerged after the invention of speech communication, when it (falsehood) is simply made possible.

Loroi didn't invent language or speech; it was inherited from their ancestors, and has always been with them from their post-Fall point of view. According to what the Loroi know, their ancestors were part of a multi-species collective, and so speech was always necessary to communicate with non-telepathic associates. Whether speech or telepathy came first is not known; given the possibility that their ancestors may have been gene-tailored or even outright engineered, one can't assume a normal evolutionary process. And as I said before, falsehood is possible with telepathy, just more difficult. Even a purely telepathic society would understand the concept of falsehood.

It would be necessary to Alex to try sign language to talk to them, maybe help

Sign language wouldn't help. The issue is not with speech specifically, but with all non-telepathic, non-verifiable communication which allows for easier falsehood. Note that Loroi do not assume that all speech contains lies, but they recognize that it is suspect. Just as humans do. The difference is that the Loroi have a more reliable alternative.

And, as Sweforce mentions, even when speech is used in close quarters (as opposed to beyond telepathic range), Loroi can often pick up passive telepathic cues from the speaker that help them to decide whether he is telling the truth. The thing that they find suspect about Alex is that they get absolutely nothing from him.

If they so actively borrow (well, trying, at least) technology from neighbors why so sluggish is cultural integration, especially against the background of ever-increasing integration of the actual?

The Loroi co-opt elements they find useful, and discard the rest. They're eager to adopt new technologies, and they have borrowed many economic and business practices from their neighbors. But Loroi culture is insular, and without mass media, there are limited ways in which alien culture can creep into the Loroi collective consciousness. It doesn't help either that the Loroi consider themselves to be superior. On Earth, developing countries adopted European dress and customs because the Europeans were in charge of the world order. In the Union, it's Loroi who are in charge, and they feel no need to emulate their alien client states.

With a lifespan of at ~ 400 years, Loroi generational change should occur about once every 160-180 years, which means that from the moment of realization was to fixation as much as 2-3 generations at least. We have a much more radical ideas take root for much less time.

Modern Western human society has become accustomed to rapid, regular change, but this is a very recent development. Loroi society is rigid and traditionalist; it changes only when necessary, and usually with some difficulty.

[Tamri]

Loroi didn't invent language or speech; it was inherited from their ancestors, and has always been with them from their post-Fall point of view. According to what the Loroi know, their ancestors were part of a multi-species collective, and so speech was always necessary to communicate with non-telepathic associates. Whether speech or telepathy came first is not known; given the possibility that their ancestors may have been gene-tailored or even outright engineered, one can't assume a normal evolutionary process. And as I said before, falsehood is possible with telepathy, just more difficult. Even a purely telepathic society would understand the concept of falsehood.

Speech, exactly as written - is the property of culture, rather than the species. Loss of culture leads to the loss of its acquisitions. If Loroi had fallen so seriously that lost civilization and, in fact, any connection with the past in except to ruins and fragmentary memories of the few survivors - they just couldn't keep the culture. And tens of thousands of years of development, in fact, a new civilization (and hence culture) on the ruins of the old had only exacerbate it. Modern civilization to its predecessor Loroi probably will not like at all except for a few fragments.

Sign language wouldn't help. The issue is not with speech specifically, but with all non-telepathic, non-verifiable communication which allows for easier falsehood. Note that Loroi do not assume that all speech contains lies, but they recognize that it is suspect. Just as humans do. The difference is that the Loroi have a more reliable alternative.

And, as Sweforce mentions, even when speech is used in close quarters (as opposed to beyond telepathic range), Loroi can often pick up passive telepathic cues from the speaker that help them to decide whether he is telling the truth. The thing that they find suspect about Alex is that they get absolutely nothing from him.

It certainly makes sense, but in their stories were Mannadi. If the idea is actually closed to "scan" the subject's when they perceived Loroi as something irrational and instinctively repulsive - it says clearly not in their favor. Of course, it may be in the association of people with mannadi in their minds, but the idea itself - hardly. Even for Loroi.

The Loroi co-opt elements they find useful, and discard the rest. They're eager to adopt new technologies, and they have borrowed many economic and business practices from their neighbors. But Loroi culture is insular, and without mass media, there are limited ways in which alien culture can creep into the Loroi collective consciousness. It doesn't help either that the Loroi consider themselves to be superior. On Earth, developing countries adopted European dress and customs because the Europeans were in charge of the world order. In the Union, it's Loroi who are in charge, and they feel no need to emulate their alien client states.

The interaction of cultures can't go in the one direction, especially when one culture on the development of depth is clearly superior to the other. Maybe I'm too optimistic about them, but even a mere acquaintance and constant interaction is already self-other creates a certain cultural diffusion, adoption of certain aspects, thesises, or just favorite places, followed by sublimation and "fit" borrowed elements "by itself" . It is an uncontrollable natural process that can suppress some external force or gain, but not quite shut. Of course, except when distinct culture until complete incompatibility, but even in this case it is possible to take something.

[Arioch]

Speech, exactly as written - is the property of culture, rather than the species. Loss of culture leads to the loss of its acquisitions.

Spoken language predates civilization, and when civilizations fall, spoken language does not disappear. It may often be replaced when a new culture takes over, but in cases where a civilization collapses of its own accord (and is not conquered by a rival civilization), the remnants of the civilization continue to use the old spoken language. After the collapse of the Mayan civilization, the descendant peoples continued to speak the Mayan language (which continues to this day), even though they forgot how to use their written language. In the case of the fall of the Roman Empire, Latin did not disappear, but rather became localized over time into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, and the Latin alphabet is still in use, largely unchanged.

Also, fall of a civilization does not always mean complete loss of the culture. Roman culture and Christianity did not disappear when the Roman empire fell.

The interaction of cultures can't go in the one direction, especially when one culture on the development of depth is clearly superior to the other.

I don't agree with the premise that the alien cultures are "clearly superior" to Loroi culture, or at least I don't think the Loroi would see it that way. The Loroi consider themselves quite civilized, and they are the masters of their world (or at least, they were prior to the war), so they don't have any reason to see other cultures as superior.

[Tamri]

Spoken language predates civilization, and when civilizations fall, spoken language does not disappear. It may often be replaced when a new culture takes over, but in cases where a civilization collapses of its own accord (and is not conquered by a rival civilization), the remnants of the civilization continue to use the old spoken language. After the collapse of the Mayan civilization, the descendant peoples continued to speak the Mayan language (which continues to this day), even though they forgot how to use their written language. In the case of the fall of the Roman Empire, Latin did not disappear, but rather became localized over time into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, and the Latin alphabet is still in use, largely unchanged.

When the proto-Loroi civilization collapsed, there was no new invading culture to replace it.

Also, fall of a civilization does not always mean complete loss of the culture. Roman culture and Christianity did not disappear when the Roman empire fell.

This is because the latter lose very utilitarian things. The problem is that Loroi verbal language is not necessary. Moreover, I suspect that the possibility of verbal communication was lost one of the first: since the disaster of this magnitude, what can derail an interstellar civilization to substone age, the first generations to be occupied only a question of their own survival - in such conditions all the knowledge that is not actively used are lost almost immediately.

I don't agree with the premise that the alien cultures are "clearly superior" to Loroi culture, or at least I don't think the Loroi would see it that way. The Loroi consider themselves quite civilized, and they are the masters of their world (or at least, they were prior to the war), so they don't have any reason to see other cultures as superior.

In fact, of the matter is that awareness for this isn't necessary. More rich and diverse culture influences the less developed simply by the fact of his presence. As the barbarians who lived in the neighborhood of Rome, Persia and ancient Greece acquired elements of these cultures, whether they desire it or not. Their culture, too, were self-sufficient, and at that time everyone thought their values highest, but it's mutual integration is not hindered. Maybe I'm overly humanize them, ascribing human qualities like habit to drag yourself all that isn't nailed down, and integrate into their culture, but in my opinion, similar in quality to some extent should be attributed to any rational mind has reached space.

[Absalom]

Speaking of writing, with and on what materials is Loroi Trade traditionally written?

Pre-Fall Soia documents can be assumed to have been digital, and so are almost entirely lost. Surviving Trade writing from that era is mostly inscriptions on durable material (such as the Soia superhard ceramics). There are a few artifacts with short inscriptions, and a few monuments with more lengthy passages, but the majority of examples are small ceramic signs and nameplates. They're a bit like trilobite fossils on Earth; incredibly old, but so common you can buy one at any corner market stall.

How much "character drift" was there on the sister worlds? Were any interesting short-hands, dialects, or "font types" (e.g. serif for carved vs sans-serif for non-carved) developed?

What kept writing relevant? A relative lack of Listel?

In modern Loroi society, most documents are digital, and so printed books are very rare.

How common is a fear among the Loroi of losing their technology again? Have any meaningful efforts been made (not necessarily in the Loroi's recent history) to prepare for such a loss?

The Loroi co-opt elements they find useful, and discard the rest. They're eager to adopt new technologies, and they have borrowed many economic and business practices from their neighbors. But Loroi culture is insular, and without mass media, there are limited ways in which alien culture can creep into the Loroi collective consciousness. It doesn't help either that the Loroi consider themselves to be superior. On Earth, developing countries adopted European dress and customs because the Europeans were in charge of the world order. In the Union, it's Loroi who are in charge, and they feel no need to emulate their alien client states.

The interaction of cultures can't go in the one direction, especially when one culture on the development of depth is clearly superior to the other. Maybe I'm too optimistic about them, but even a mere acquaintance and constant interaction is already self-other creates a certain cultural diffusion, adoption of certain aspects, thesises, or just favorite places, followed by sublimation and "fit" borrowed elements "by itself" . It is an uncontrollable natural process that can suppress some external force or gain, but not quite shut. Of course, except when distinct culture until complete incompatibility, but even in this case it is possible to take something.

The distinction between compatible cultures and incompatible cultures is primarily perceptual, just as relative superiority is primarily perceptual. The interaction of the Norse and Inuit (or was it the other group?) illustrates this: the Inuit were far more acclimated to the Greenland environment than the Norse, but the Norse rejected an adoption of Inuit practices, due to a self-perception of the superiority of their own ways. Cultural contact might always result in a merging, but the merging isn't always large enough to be of note.

Speech, exactly as written - is the property of culture, rather than the species. Loss of culture leads to the loss of its acquisitions.

Spoken language predates civilization, and when civilizations fall, spoken language does not disappear. It may often be replaced when a new culture takes over, but in cases where a civilization collapses of its own accord (and is not conquered by a rival civilization), the remnants of the civilization continue to use the old spoken language. After the collapse of the Mayan civilization, the descendant peoples continued to speak the Mayan language (which continues to this day), even though they forgot how to use their written language. In the case of the fall of the Roman Empire, Latin did not disappear, but rather became localized over time into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, and the Latin alphabet is still in use, largely unchanged.

Also, fall of a civilization does not always mean complete loss of the culture. Roman culture and Christianity did not disappear when the Roman empire fell.

And even then, the fall of a culture doesn't necessarily mean the culture completely falls. Mycenaean Greece collapsed, but the approximate religion, and at least aspects of the culture, continued afterwards. The South American "cities of gold" area is much the same: the population barely exists in comparison to it's old presence, but a corpse of it's ruling structure has even still survived, despite the extent and populations of settlements, and even the number of settlements, collapsing within a single lifetime of first contact.

When the proto-Loroi civilization collapsed, there was no new invading culture to replace it.

This is because the latter lose very utilitarian things. The problem is that Loroi verbal language is not necessary. Moreover, I suspect that the possibility of verbal communication was lost one of the first: since the disaster of this magnitude, what can derail an interstellar civilization to substone age, the first generations to be occupied only a question of their own survival - in such conditions all the knowledge that is not actively used are lost almost immediately.

But what if it wasn't unnecessary? When the Soia fell, food supplies likely collapsed as well. The possibility of insufficient resources is very real, and the primary question would be which groups won the battle for resources. However, complete warfare isn't survivable in such a situation, so you occasionally need some way to negotiate, even if just as the opening salvo of a battle: speech would have likely proved priceless within the first one or two years. The long lifespan of the Loroi would in turn have made retention of written language more likely. Finally, supposing the existence of Listel at the time, you would have an extremely long-lived perfect memory of both written and verbal language within the first generation: if they had enough time to start child warrior bands, then they had enough time to teach those bands verbal and written language for pragmatic purposes (negotiating with neighbors that you don't trust, leaving messages for people expecting to find you somewhere that you have to leave, etc.).

Retaining both written and spoken language is actually fairly likely for the Loroi.

Maybe I'm overly humanize them, ascribing human qualities like habit to drag yourself all that isn't nailed down, and integrate into their culture, but in my opinion, similar in quality to some extent should be attributed to any rational mind has reached space.

The only similarity that should be counted upon is the ability to recognize patterns, and use them to make predictions. Even within human civilizations, anything else is not entirely reliable: if you have an insular culture, then your uptake of external elements will be drastically slowed. If you use an incompatible communication technique, then your uptake will be slowed even further.