Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[RedDwarfIV]

One possibility: The Loroi send an industrial task force out to human space to set up modern Loroi industry. This would then allow for more industry to be built (which would be operated by humans, given the task force's limited personnel.) At some point they switch from industrialisation to shipbuilding. The purpose of all of this would be so that, once the industry has built a sizable force in human territory, they can make an attack on the flank of the Umiak's attempted outflanking strategy.

[GeoModder]

Actually the Umiak have the slight technological edge in the form of their Plasma Focus weaponry, the Historians evened the odds by providing Plasma Pulse cannons which do lesser damage but have far greater range. The latest Plasma Focus weapons have also slightly increased range with lesser damage.

Wave Loom device anyone? Technical limitations or not, enough of them can break the backbone of any Umiak assault fleet before they even come into Plasma Focus range.

The Wave Loom device has issues that the Loroi haven't been able to fully counter just yet.

That's where the 'enough of them' comes into play.

[joestej]

That's where the 'enough of them' comes into play.

Relatively sure if simply spamming Wave-Loom equipped ships actually worked, the Loroi would have done it by now.

Thus far we know of only three ship types that have been equipped with Wave Looms, all of which have been battleships or bigger. The Cry of the Wind is the Imperial flagship and has yet to see combat (that we know of). The sole member of the Eye of Heaven class was destroyed in the Semoset campaign. The Vortex Mk 1 and 2 suffered such heavy casualties that Tempest is the only surviving member of the class. That means that every single Wave-Loom ship that has seen combat has been destroyed, save one. Not a great track record.

This is likely because unlike most fictional superweapons, the Wave-Loom can only hit one target at a time. It doesn't wipe out whole swaths of the enemy. Against an opponent that favors massive numbers of disposable ships, using the Wave Loom is like fighting a swarm of bees with a sledgehammer. Which isn't to say it's not a great weapon, but it has some serious drawbacks and it's probably not cheap or easy to build. There's likely a good reason the Loroi's post-Semoset ships don't bother with them.

[Sweforce]

That's where the 'enough of them' comes into play.

Relatively sure if simply spamming Wave-Loom equipped ships actually worked, the Loroi would have done it by now.

Thus far we know of only three ship types that have been equipped with Wave Looms, all of which have been battleships or bigger. The Cry of the Wind is the Imperial flagship and has yet to see combat (that we know of). The sole member of the Eye of Heaven class was destroyed in the Semoset campaign. The Vortex Mk 1 and 2 suffered such heavy casualties that Tempest is the only surviving member of the class. That means that every single Wave-Loom ship that has seen combat has been destroyed, save one. Not a great track record.

This is likely because unlike most fictional superweapons, the Wave-Loom can only hit one target at a time. It doesn't wipe out whole swaths of the enemy. Against an opponent that favors massive numbers of disposable ships, using the Wave Loom is like fighting a swarm of bees with a sledgehammer. Which isn't to say it's not a great weapon, but it has some serious drawbacks and it's probably not cheap or easy to build. There's likely a good reason the Loroi's post-Semoset ships don't bother with them.

The wave-Loom isn't meant to take out swarms of enemy ships. It is intended to inflict massive damage on the most powerful of the enemies ships. It is a "super heave killer". Unfortunately it leaves the user defenceless due to the massive energy drain. As such it is a very circumstantial weapon. It is however possible that wave-looms see regular use as a fortress weapon. If so it is a great deterrent against sending the most powerful ships against those installations.

[Siber]

I was under the impression that the wave loom actually IS an area of effect weapon. However, area of effect can me it just hits some of the enemy fleet, not all, and I believe it disables the firing ship temporairly, which is a pretty deadly state to be in in hardish sci-fi battles. And since it needs a ship the size of the Tempest to mount one, it's understandable that they're not expendable. It seems likely that firing a WLD could be an act of desperation, likely to win the battle but lose the command ship. Perhaps in a less proud-warrior-race empire's hands they'd have better luck, with the WLD not in the same hull as unit's flag.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Maybe they could come up with some kind of expendable coolant pod for the wave loom device. Shoot once, disconnect the pod, keep going somewhat normally. Although that would probably require reworking the cooling system from the ground up, and it seems to me like the Loroi military leaders are not pleased with the wave loom device anymore to begin such an endeavor. (Perhaps not worth it to make it into a really expensive one shot weapon.)

[joestej]

The wave-Loom isn't meant to take out swarms of enemy ships. It is intended to inflict massive damage on the most powerful of the enemies ships. It is a "super heave killer". Unfortunately it leaves the user defenceless due to the massive energy drain. As such it is a very circumstantial weapon. It is however possible that wave-looms see regular use as a fortress weapon. If so it is a great deterrent against sending the most powerful ships against those installations.

Precisely. It is a 'siege' weapon, good for use against heavy battleships and fortress-style battlestations that have little mobility, and is great at its job. I can certainly see why the Loroi would want a Wave-Loom or two considering how nasty the Type-T and Type-TT battleships are. But those ships are rare compared to the unstoppable tides of destroyers and gunboats the Umiak prefer to field. Universal use of Wave-Looms would probably be a VERY expensive mistake.

The best way to use it might be on a few dedicated platforms with lots of protection (either escorts or built-in PD turrets) that you can call in when you're expecting to see extremely heavy enemy units, the same way Human armies have historically used their own heavy artillery.

I was under the impression that the wave loom actually IS an area of effect weapon. However, area of effect can me it just hits some of the enemy fleet, not all, and I believe it disables the firing ship temporairly, which is a pretty deadly state to be in in hardish sci-fi battles. And since it needs a ship the size of the Tempest to mount one, it's understandable that they're not expendable. It seems likely that firing a WLD could be an act of desperation, likely to win the battle but lose the command ship. Perhaps in a less proud-warrior-race empire's hands they'd have better luck, with the WLD not in the same hull as unit's flag.

Not according to the preliminary rules Arioch posted several years ago. Admittedly they're a very outdated and loose canon, but if I'm remembering right they said that he wanted the Loom to be an AoE weapon, but couldn't find any real-world-physics justification to make it happen, so it wasn't. The Insider doesn't say one way or the other. Arioch, care to settle this one if you're lurking around?

Maybe they could come up with some kind of expendable coolant pod for the wave loom device. Shoot once, disconnect the pod, keep going somewhat normally. Although that would probably require reworking the cooling system from the ground up, and it seems to me like the Loroi military leaders are not pleased with the wave loom device anymore to begin such an endeavor. (Perhaps not worth it to make it into a really expensive one shot weapon.)

The new RXS versions the Cry of the Wind mounts are apparently much more reliable and have fewer heat issues. So the Loroi are obviously working on improving the design, but since we haven't heard of any other ships mounting it, the new version the Wave-Loom probably still isn't cost-effective enough for common battlefield use.

[cacambo43]

That's where the 'enough of them' comes into play.

Relatively sure if simply spamming Wave-Loom equipped ships actually worked, the Loroi would have done it by now.

Thus far we know of only three ship types that have been equipped with Wave Looms, all of which have been battleships or bigger. The Cry of the Wind is the Imperial flagship and has yet to see combat (that we know of). The sole member of the Eye of Heaven class was destroyed in the Semoset campaign. The Vortex Mk 1 and 2 suffered such heavy casualties that Tempest is the only surviving member of the class. That means that every single Wave-Loom ship that has seen combat has been destroyed, save one. Not a great track record.

This is likely because unlike most fictional superweapons, the Wave-Loom can only hit one target at a time. It doesn't wipe out whole swaths of the enemy. Against an opponent that favors massive numbers of disposable ships, using the Wave Loom is like fighting a swarm of bees with a sledgehammer. Which isn't to say it's not a great weapon, but it has some serious drawbacks and it's probably not cheap or easy to build. There's likely a good reason the Loroi's post-Semoset ships don't bother with them.

How the heck do "we" know so much about this stuff that hasn't even made the comic?! Is this in Insider, or more of Arioch's background in previous threads? Damn, he's put SO MUCH TIME in the background of this thing... [must. not. make. comment. about. time. priorities. urk. eep.]

CJSF

[dragoongfa]

Insider + Forums + Really bored fans = Lot's of background info

[Sweforce]

The wave loom make me associate to the "Yamato gun" of the terrain battlecruiser in StarCraft.

[Arioch]

The Insider doesn't say one way or the other. Arioch, care to settle this one if you're lurking around?

Actually, the Shipboard Systems entry does mention the "secondary area-of-effect damage which easily penetrates armor." But it's true that I haven't yet worked out whether this secondary area of effect is due to a cone-shaped beam, or some kind of secondary effect that jumps to nearby mass (a bit like the Dr. Device), or both. But in either case, the area is not huge, so it won't affect multiple ships unless they are grouped closely together. It's used mainly against hard targets, of which few are seen on defense, but it will play a larger role when the Loroi go on offense.

The power requirements and physical size of the weapon mean that it can be mounted primarily on super-dreadnought vessels. A dedicated WLD-plus-engines "artillery" ship would still be the size of a battlecruiser.

[harlequin2262]

The wave loom make me associate to the "Yamato gun" of the terrain battlecruiser in StarCraft.

Which in turn came from the Wave Motion gun (there's something about that name that seems familiar) from Space Battleship Yamato. Hence the name, Yamato Cannon.

[joestej]

Actually, the Shipboard Systems entry does mention the "secondary area-of-effect damage which easily penetrates armor." But it's true that I haven't yet worked out whether this secondary area of effect is due to a cone-shaped beam, or some kind of secondary effect that jumps to nearby mass (a bit like the Dr. Device), or both. But in either case, the area is not huge, so it won't affect multiple ships unless they are grouped closely together. It's used mainly against hard targets, of which few are seen on defense, but it will play a larger role when the Loroi go on offense.

Whoops! And here I had thought I'd checked so carefully too...

To offer some unsolicited advice, Arioch, the cone idea seems like it would be the easiest to make work. It's a cool visual effect, makes the weapon slightly easier to aim, and you don't have to worry about nosy fans trying to run away with the physics behind the gun. Considering that impacts of .01 C or higher can cause nuclear fusion, it seems logical that a weave of exotic plasma particles going a significant percent of lightspeed would be exactly as devastating as described without having to get too 'quantum'. Admittedly my knowledge of advanced physics is somewhat limited, so don't quote me or anything.

The power requirements and physical size of the weapon mean that it can be mounted primarily on super-dreadnought vessels. A dedicated WLD-plus-engines "artillery" ship would still be the size of a battlecruiser.

I figured as much. And since the Umiak know exactly what a Wave-Loom ship looks like (and probably have a rough idea of its limitations), said artillery ship would likely find itself the target of a missile massacre almost the second it arrived. I'll let someone else do the math on the range of Umiak torpedoes vs the Wave-Loom, but without careful shepherding I expect our artillery vessel would be turned into the sector's most expensive fireworks display in short order.

Let that be a lesson to you, kids: it's not the size of your gun, it's how you use it that counts.

How the heck do "we" know so much about this stuff that hasn't even made the comic?! Is this in Insider, or more of Arioch's background in previous threads? Damn, he's put SO MUCH TIME in the background of this thing... [must. not. make. comment. about. time. priorities. urk. eep.]

Insider + Forums + Really bored fans = Lot's of background info

^^What he said!^^

While our friend Arioch may have a bit of what is occasionally referred to as 'World Builder's Disease', having dabbled in amateur writing myself I can safely say that if you plan on writing anything in the neighborhood of hard sci-fi, this level of planning really is something of a requirement. It's even worse for comics, because suddenly exactly where the point-defense turrets are on each individual destroyer is something you actually need to know. The grammar of Trade, how system defense works, the different rank structures and ways of showing those ranks, those are all things you need to know to create a science fiction universe that make sense and feels three-dimensional. The fact that all the background material is posted for the rest of us to play around with just makes it even better.

What can I say? Science fiction fans like to over analyse, and Outsider is a great comic for that.

[cacambo43]

I understand about world (or universe) building. I was typing that with the equivalent of "tongue-in-cheek."

I appreciate the depth of the Outsider universe (or, galaxy, I guess?) - I think many of us science/science-fictions fans have fantasized about building our own world, either through our own books, comics, games, or film/video. I know I have, and seeing the depth and breadth Arioch has with Outsider gives me a glimmer of hope that my own idea might get out someday.

CJSF

[Onaiom]

Arioch, the loroi had any inspiration from Aristophanes' Ecclesiazusae (Assemblywomen) ?

[Arioch]

Arioch, the loroi had any inspiration from Aristophanes' Ecclesiazusae (Assemblywomen) ?

Nope, haven't read it.

[dragoongfa]

Quick vocabulary questions:

What is the trade word for vermin?

What is the trade word for bugs or insects?

[Arioch]

What is the trade word for vermin?
What is the trade word for bugs or insects?

None of the Sister Worlds has a direct analogue to the insect (a small exoskeletal land organism). On Deinar and Taben, most land animals are introduced higher animals. Perrein has a variety of native creepy-crawlies, which tend to be less of a nuisance and more of a danger.

lanal means "pest" (a nuisance organism).
naga means "feral/wild" and has more dangerous connotations; on Deinar, most pests are feral versions of livestock animals.
rollat means plague or contagion.
sori is a class of "hypersquid" organisms on Perrein of various sizes that cause a lot of trouble.
sirar is a small soft-bodied flying creature that is not an insect, but is analogous in size and annoyance factor to a fly or small moth.

[joestej]

None of the Sister Worlds has a direct analogue to the insect (a small exoskeletal land organism). On Deinar and Taben, most land animals are introduced higher animals. Perrein has a variety of native creepy-crawlies, which tend to be less of a nuisance and more of a danger.

lanal means "pest" (a nuisance organism).
naga means "feral/wild" and has more dangerous connotations; on Deinar, most pests are feral versions of livestock animals.
rollat means plague or contagion.
sori is a class of "hypersquid" organisms on Perrein of various sizes that cause a lot of trouble.
sirar is a small soft-bodied flying creature that is not an insect, but is analogous in size and annoyance factor to a fly or small moth.

Wow, no bugs! That's got to be one heck of weird ecosystem. I assume the sirar and various other small creatures take over their ecological niches?

[dragoongfa]

Both Deinar and Taben are planets seeded with Soia Liron lifeforms, so I think that it is safe to assume that most of the niche stuff of missing organism is handled through a limited number of these planted organisms.