Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Krulle]

I know I was joking.
And you're doing "it" only in the forums, and not in the comic, filler pages or similar.

[novius]

But, seriously...

Human vessels of war are cramped. Seriously so. Space is a luxury, and everything to save some precious material or fuel to propel and support a vessel is done. Given this, this disabuses any notion of personal space in whoever serves, say, on a submarine.

So why are Loroi vessels so spacious?

I can't really think that the Loroi Union is that rich that they can allow such extravagancy in their spaceships. If one can build and sustain six smaller, equally or more effective vessels for the price of four, (s)he would do it. Especially in a war where every woman, every ship and every gun or missile tube counts.

So I think space is not a luxury on Loroi vessels, but a necessity. But why?

One possible explanation is that the Loroi taboo on touching is much, much more prevalent than any human might think. That it's one of their design criteria to give any two Loroi more than enough space to comfortably pass each other, everywhere.

And that means, sorry guys, scratch any thoughts about communal baths, because bathing would definitely be a highly private affair.

Though... on the other hand, that makes Beryl's readiness to intrude into Alex's personal space an even more glaring breach of social mores.
( http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider072.html. http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider101.html , http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider105.html )

This one, too, but I guess even Loroi would feel the need to dispense with 'good manners' if it is sort of an emergency. ( http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider091.html )

[Razor One]

Loroi proximity to Alex can probably be explained as his telepathic blankness to Loroi senses on one side, and the Loroi testing him on the other to see if he really does have all the telepathy of a rock or if there might be some small spark there.

You kind of get that with humans too. Someone gets too close and you can feel them even if they don't touch you, even if you don't actually see them.

Regarding bathing, I imagine that it requires one of two very desirable traits. The first is being very good about not touching at all, the second being discreet or trustworthy if touching does happen. Tempo likely only trusts Shoegirl since she's her aide and would privy to anything important and wise enough to shut her telepathic trap about anything above her paygrade. Beryl is likely very good about not touching, hence why she's not too concerned about getting up close to others, while Fireblade and Stillstorm likely trust no one and bathe steadfastly alone.

And now, for some reason, I imagine the Jaws theme playing as Fireblade or Stillstorm makes their way to the baths, with one crew member telepathically yelling "GET OUT OF THE WATER!" when she sees either of them on approach and woe betiding the luckless Loroi that fails to do so.

Also, the resulting war that erupts when the bath is double booked between them.

[dragoongfa]

But, seriously...

Human vessels of war are cramped. Seriously so. Space is a luxury, and everything to save some precious material or fuel to propel and support a vessel is done. Given this, this disabuses any notion of personal space in whoever serves, say, on a submarine.

So why are Loroi vessels so spacious?

I can't really think that the Loroi Union is that rich that they can allow such extravagancy in their spaceships. If one can build and sustain six smaller, equally or more effective vessels for the price of four, (s)he would do it. Especially in a war where every woman, every ship and every gun or missile tube counts.

So I think space is not a luxury on Loroi vessels, but a necessity. But why?

One possible explanation is that the Loroi taboo on touching is much, much more prevalent than any human might think. That it's one of their design criteria to give any two Loroi more than enough space to comfortably pass each other, everywhere.

And that means, sorry guys, scratch any thoughts about communal baths, because bathing would definitely be a highly private affair.

Though... on the other hand, that makes Beryl's readiness to intrude into Alex's personal space an even more glaring breach of social mores.
( http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider072.html. http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider101.html , http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider105.html )

This one, too, but I guess even Loroi would feel the need to dispense with 'good manners' if it is sort of an emergency. ( http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider091.html )

I had and still have the exact same thoughts and I think I got the answer when I was writing my big fan-fic.

According to Arioch the Loroi form very disciplined and efficient telepathic networks for executing complicated tasks (paraphrasing a bit), Loroi telepathy is far more efficient and effective than any electronic alternative and as such it always played the most important roles in command, control and communications. It stands to reason that maintaining this network requires the majority of the Loroi to be telepathically adept (accomplished by training) and with nothing to bother them; for them accidental touching in the heat of a space battle would be extremely bothersome and if it happens in a lot of places then the whole network would be thrown into chaos.

As such it stands to reason that the Loroi would take into account the establishment and maintenance of these networks as paramount when designing their ships. This undoubtedly causes them to build fewer ships due to the square cube law but it does guarantee that the one tool that makes their crews superior than any opponent (telepathy and the network) works effectively and efficiently. In the end reasonably fewer warriors but better trained, coordinated and controlled will always be the superior force. The same should apply to Loroi warships, they are outnumbered due to the way they are built but their crews and internal workings are noticeably superior and they can always choose the most optimum moment to do battle with their Farsense doctrine.

Now as to communal bathing; I don't think that touching is an end all taboo, especially for warriors who rely on each other to survive. I think that a lot of trust must be involved in such demanding circumstances and the Loroi must have ways for building and maintaining that trust. Ancient Greeks had various ways to do this, including communal bathing before battle was taken.

For Loroi it could be something like this: Imagine Talon and Spiral, they are two warriors from the same Diral band and regularly go to battle at each other's side. There is bound to be a lot of trust between them, enough that they would accept touching each other without any fuss. However do they trust the Gallen engineer who makes sure that their fighters are properly maintained and equipped?

I think that they would seek to establish some trust with their engineers in various ways, since they practically rely on them to do battle with properly maintained equipment. Perhaps they wont be 'bath buddies' from the get go but after a while I think that they will trust each other enough for that and perhaps tolerating some touching without issue.

EDIT: Also remember that Loroi fought with swords, shields and spears in their history. Methods of warfare that require a LOT of extremely close proximity and touching for just being in formation. All warrior castes are bound to have had rules and even perhaps some closely kept and maintained traditions where they are obligated to touch their comrades in arms before they do battle.

In the end I believe that Loroi 'touching' is a matter of trust (with some etiquette) and warriors who go to battle need to show and confirm that they trust each other to do their jobs.

[orion1836]

I can pose an alternative reason to the spaciousness of Loroi ships that doesn't involve the touching taboo.

When I was writing my own story, I knew that I wanted some sort of tender-type vessel that included extensive recreational facilities for fleet personnel. It was a design choice when it came to setting, but it needed some type of in-universe justification. Battlestar Galactica did it by having luxury ships included in the colonial fleet. They weren't there because of military choice... they just happened to survive to join the mass exodus. My justification was that, since humanity in my story was facing a similarly high mortality rate in combat as the Loroi are facing in Outsider, their fleets were designed around the fact that most of the servicemen and women assigned to them would likely live out their lives on those fleets. Aside from simple morale reasons, the designers had to give them something to live for. A little slice of planetside life in the form of a fleet tender was their answer.

Loroi ships could be so nicely designed because they are likely the last home their Loroi crew will ever know.

[Krulle]

Loroi ships could be so nicely designed because they are likely the last home their Loroi crew will ever know.

I know that Human military planers would do so too, if they could afford it. For morale reasons.
But also Human planners keep in their head that the ship in a war will likely mean that it is home for the soldiers for the remainders of their life.
But, more space means being a bigger target. Your shields stretch thinner, and the chance for your armour to leak air grows.
And because such an expensive ship is very costly to replace, the Human planners want to keep the costs to the economy low, so that the ship IS replaceable if you need to replace it. And in a war you will need to replace it sooner or later.

You could always go with other reasons, like the jump field generator must have a certain physical size, and the jump field is accordingly large and needs calibrators/effectors/field conductors/whatever at certain physical positions, so the ship will paint the target size anyway. And if you already paint the target that large, why not use the room inside for your crew? Makes life support easier, and in case of combat you could even divert the energy to the weapons and shield generators without risking suffocation of your crew.

[JQBogus]

Prior to the start of the war, the Loroi hadn't been in a foreign war for ~600 years, and their last civil war was ~350 years back.

It is unclear how long the design phase for a new class of ships is for the Loroi. There is a good chance that the Vortex class (Tempest) may have had a substantial amount of its design work done before the war, or, even if it was designed after the start of the war, that its design carried a lot of pre-war features and assumptions.

One of those features/assumptions may have been a lot of room. If your job for several generations has been cruising around showing the flag and impressing the natives, a cramped, smelly ship may be contraindicated.

And so far, the only ship we've seen the insides of is the Tempest. Other Loroi ships may not have so much room.

[Sweforce]

Prior to the start of the war, the Loroi hadn't been in a foreign war for ~600 years, and their last civil war was ~350 years back.

It is unclear how long the design phase for a new class of ships is for the Loroi. There is a good chance that the Vortex class (Tempest) may have had a substantial amount of its design work done before the war, or, even if it was designed after the start of the war, that its design carried a lot of pre-war features and assumptions.

One of those features/assumptions may have been a lot of room. If your job for several generations has been cruising around showing the flag and impressing the natives, a cramped, smelly ship may be contraindicated.

And so far, the only ship we've seen the insides of is the Tempest. Other Loroi ships may not have so much room.

I have recently begun to rewatch Star Trek The Next Generation. That Enterprise are a marvel of luxury and huge spaces but then again it is the federations flagship that tend to get the lionshare of the diplomatic first contact missions. It is commanded by Picard that is a captain that could be an admiral if he just wanted to. The entire crew is probably made up of similarly deliberately underpromoted people that WANT to be there. The station there IS the promotion in itself. As such it is also an elite crew that you can rely on to get the job done. It is the federations dream team. Could the same be said of the crew of the Tempest?

[dragoongfa]

I think not and Beryl's comment about the commander getting tired at looking at her officers is the strongest clue.

Also remember that Beryl, Fireblade and Tempo have 'bad reputations' in their GURPS character sheets. Dream team members don't have that.

EDIT: Remember that Stillstorm is on the Emperor's shitlist, having a very well known and effective Torai being loudly critical of the throne is troublesome to say the least.

If I was to wage a guess, the admiralty doesn't send the truly best at Tempest but due to the universal high quality of personnel available one has to struggle to find a 'failure' to cause headaches. Fireblade is probably the most glaring attempt at pissing off Stillstorm since she is 'bad luck' (according to Word of God)

[JQBogus]

Tempest is the last of its class. Statistically, she is a dangerous ship to serve on, possibly because she has too much extraneous mass in her design, possible (again) because she is essentially a pre-war design.

Now, if you are the emperor and have a critic who is too prominent to just administratively shuffle into oblivion, what do you do with her? Maybe give her a nominally high prestige ship that is likely to result in her death in battle? And who better to staff it with than other "problematic" officers?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Also remember that Beryl, Fireblade and Tempo have 'bad reputations' in their GURPS character sheets. Dream team members don't have that.

It's a racial trait, not a personal trait. All Loroi have a bad reputation.

[Arioch]

Human vessels of war are cramped. Seriously so. Space is a luxury, and everything to save some precious material or fuel to propel and support a vessel is done. Given this, this disabuses any notion of personal space in whoever serves, say, on a submarine.

So why are Loroi vessels so spacious?

I can't really think that the Loroi Union is that rich that they can allow such extravagancy in their spaceships. If one can build and sustain six smaller, equally or more effective vessels for the price of four, (s)he would do it. Especially in a war where every woman, every ship and every gun or missile tube counts.

So I think space is not a luxury on Loroi vessels, but a necessity. But why?

The Loroi interiors are deliberately more spacious than the comparatively tight corridors of the Bellarmine to contrast the differing technology levels and aesthetics of the two civilizations; the humans are low-tech and utilitarian, and the Loroi are much higher-tech and more concerned with aesthetics. Loroi ships are not meant to feel like space submarines. Also, Bellarmine is a small scout, while Tempest is a large command ship; they shouldn't feel the same. So this is a visual design choice rather than a practical choice at its root.

That said, having open space in a starship is really not a problem, as long as the mass of the ship does not increase significantly as well. The size and shape of Tempest and most Loroi vessels is determined by the size of its functioning parts, and not its crew spaces. The overall dimensions of a Loroi warship are determined chiefly by the prong rails and the engine nacelles, and the box-shaped crew section at the center is of a more or less correspondingly fixed volume. If you can comfortably fit everything you need within that volume, there's no advantage to making it densely packed. Packing more stuff into that volume will increase the mass of the ship, which will negatively affect performance.

Now as to communal bathing; I don't think that touching is an end all taboo, especially for warriors who rely on each other to survive. I think that a lot of trust must be involved in such demanding circumstances and the Loroi must have ways for building and maintaining that trust. Ancient Greeks had various ways to do this, including communal bathing before battle was taken.

As I've said before, it's casual touching between strangers that is taboo, not touching between intimate friends, which not at all unusual. A Loroi in a washroom with people she didn't know well would bathe herself. However, it's important to remember that for the Loroi, your good friends among your squadmates are the most intimate relationships that you have. Good friends will frequently touch hands and make close telepathic contact, and doing each other's hair or washing each other's backs is no problem at all. There's nothing taboo or sexual about it (at least, from the Loroi point of view).

[orion1836]

You know, that's the most cogent argument I've heard for the Starship Luxurious trope. If the amount of pressurized space isn't a factor... who cares about volume so long as you don't meaningfully raise mass?

[novius]

You know, that's the most cogent argument I've heard for the Starship Luxurious trope. If the amount of pressurized space isn't a factor... who cares about volume so long as you don't meaningfully raise mass?

It's not just volume to consider. While the raise in mass for the larger hull and larger surface to be armored may be not that much to consider, there are definitely other considerations, like energy consumption for life support (heat, air filtration and so on), and, and here comes the most important consideration, a larger ship definitely has a larger scanner footprint. Be it any kind of electromagnetic emissions or absorption, gravimetric or maybe other tech we wouldn't even dream of. And, when it comes to blows, a larger ship offers more target area.... though on the other hand a direct hit might be easier to shake off because the chances are lower for a vital component to be hit.

Okay. Arioch chose this difference in design to showcase different tech levels and choices in aesthetics. One could say that the aforementioned considerations may be important to human design and tech level, but a higher tech level would offer ways to negate or work around these problems. For example better ECM and point defense systems, lightweight and more durable armor and hull structure, and so on and so forth...

Or, yes, the Tempest may be a pre-war design, with later ships being more utilitarian in their layout. A prestigious posting, to be sure, but a dangerous one in wartimes. Definitely a good place to shunt off a highly lauded, but troublesome officer. Might be a common theme amongst Loroi, with Beryl and Tempo having gotten on Stillstorms bad list as well...

[Absalom]

If there isn't space or infrastructure, would they just do the relaxation in a larger-than-strictly-nessessary-for-cleansing shower, then?

If there is room for a large shower, there is room for a small tub.

Sure, but there may not be room for a small tub and a small shower, yanno?

The shuttle they're on has enough space for a small shower, though there probably isn't a permanent one there. A fold-away tub is certainly possible if they really wanted one. And this is on a shuttle craft. It's not like you'd see a full-scale reproduction of the Loroi Imperial Baths in a courier vessel, but having some baths is NOT that big of a deal.

But, seriously...

Human vessels of war are cramped. Seriously so. Space is a luxury, and everything to save some precious material or fuel to propel and support a vessel is done. Given this, this disabuses any notion of personal space in whoever serves, say, on a submarine.

So why are Loroi vessels so spacious?

I can't really think that the Loroi Union is that rich that they can allow such extravagancy in their spaceships. If one can build and sustain six smaller, equally or more effective vessels for the price of four, (s)he would do it. Especially in a war where every woman, every ship and every gun or missile tube counts.

1) The luxury of space is relative. Submarines are much more cramped than surface ships of the same crew size: for an extreme example, the Ohio-class carry around 155 crew, while the Seawise Giant (likely the largest tanker ever built) had a crew of around 40. The Seawise Giant could have fit a very large resort for those 40 on top of it's deck if the expense was considered worthwhile, whereas doing the same for the Ohio class's crew would have been more difficult due to the greater crew count.
2) The bulk of the volume of Loroi ships is likely to consist of:
i) Fuel storage (they use a lot of fuel),
ii) Ship components (their engines, for example, are very large),
iii) Workspaces ("small hanger" is comparable to "crippled hangar", and the one on Tempest is considered small, despite fitting multiple normal shuttles, the Highland shuttle, and several fighters).

Conclusion: while the ship-board spaces of the Tempest (we haven't seen much more) look large, they're actually trivially enlarged beyond needs, not significantly enlarged. They can't get six ships instead of four, it's more like 101 ships instead of 100, assuming that it's even that big of a difference.

Tempest is the last of its class. Statistically, she is a dangerous ship to serve on, possibly because she has too much extraneous mass in her design, possible (again) because she is essentially a pre-war design.

Mostly because she's a glass cannon based around a design philosophy that the Loroi have mostly abandoned (faster is better than armor was the philosophy: they didn't mask it faster enough to compensate for the reduced armor), as I best recall. They apparently don't really use the Wave-loom much, despite it being one of the centerpoints of the design (new designs often just don't include them at all).

You know, that's the most cogent argument I've heard for the Starship Luxurious trope. If the amount of pressurized space isn't a factor... who cares about volume so long as you don't meaningfully raise mass?

It's not just volume to consider. While the raise in mass for the larger hull and larger surface to be armored may be not that much to consider, there are definitely other considerations, like energy consumption for life support (heat, air filtration and so on), and, and here comes the most important consideration, a larger ship definitely has a larger scanner footprint. Be it any kind of electromagnetic emissions or absorption, gravimetric or maybe other tech we wouldn't even dream of. And, when it comes to blows, a larger ship offers more target area.... though on the other hand a direct hit might be easier to shake off because the chances are lower for a vital component to be hit.

Not a major change. Volume rises much faster than either surface area or silhouette area (volume rises with the cube of diameter, both areas rise with the square: small changes in area get you big changes in volume, so it's fairly easy to get it to pay off).

Life support won't be much of an issue: the heat dissipation for the drives & weapons will be much higher. Filtration will primarily depend on crew, due to the "lint free" solid surfaces everywhere.

Or, yes, the Tempest may be a pre-war design, with later ships being more utilitarian in their layout. A prestigious posting, to be sure, but a dangerous one in wartimes. Definitely a good place to shunt off a highly lauded, but troublesome officer. Might be a common theme amongst Loroi, with Beryl and Tempo having gotten on Stillstorms bad list as well...

It's probably a derivative of an older design, but the Tempest & it's sisters were all new-build ships: the Waveloom was designed in, and was only developed during the war.

[Arioch]

It's not just volume to consider. While the raise in mass for the larger hull and larger surface to be armored may be not that much to consider, there are definitely other considerations, like energy consumption for life support (heat, air filtration and so on), and, and here comes the most important consideration, a larger ship definitely has a larger scanner footprint. Be it any kind of electromagnetic emissions or absorption, gravimetric or maybe other tech we wouldn't even dream of. And, when it comes to blows, a larger ship offers more target area.... though on the other hand a direct hit might be easier to shake off because the chances are lower for a vital component to be hit.

The energy required to accelerate Tempest's 1200 kilotonne mass at 30g for 60 seconds is 51.8 terajoules -- roughly the yield of a tactical nuclear weapon. The notion that the additional air filtration costs of a larger-volume crew section would have a meaningful impact on the combat performance or efficiency of such a system just doesn't make any kind of practical sense.

As for the idea of a larger scanner footprint, I'll repeat: the size of a Loroi ship has very little to do with the volume of its crew space, which is a minor portion of the overall structure. A version of the Tempest with a crew space one quarter the volume would not be any smaller, just a little bit skinnier in the middle. The largest portions of the vessel (the prongs and engine nacelles and struts) are almost completely uninhabited. (Not that a ship with a terajoule-per-second drive plume is a stealthy creature to begin with...)

[novius]

(Not that a ship with a terajoule-per-second drive plume is a stealthy creature to begin with...)

That could easily define battle doctrine. As in, once a combatant risks to get into the enemy's scanner range, it would be "engines on hot standby", to not to be given away by a terawatts (Joule/second) engine emission, send out the first missile volley and coast into the battlegrounds before bringing the engines back up for maneuvering when it's clear that a ship even with engines on hot standby would be detected very soon. Even if the enemy would detect a missile launch very quickly, they may still have only the missile trajectories to determine where they came from.

But of course, Loroi farseeing ability may turn around things on their ear. When they are able to scan minds, trying to be stealthy with conventional means is sort of pointless. Judging from the battle scenes, the Umiak did close in under full burn... it could their way of doing things, getting up close and personal as quickly as they can.

Unless someone finds a way to counter Loroi farseeing ability - then they might be a bit out of their water when faced with stealth tactics for some time...

[discord]

stealth does not work in space, nor does it meaningfully work for surface ships, nor aircraft, although the speed involved with aircraft means a slightly shorter distance you are detected at can actually be useful, for ground troops it CAN work though, enough clutter to hide around in.

and as mentioned, continuous nuclear blasts just makes the idea of stealth silly.... 'hurr, lets be stealthy with this new fangdangled orion drive, durr!'

[ShadowDragon8685]

stealth does not work in space, nor does it meaningfully work for surface ships, nor aircraft, although the speed involved with aircraft means a slightly shorter distance you are detected at can actually be useful, for ground troops it CAN work though, enough clutter to hide around in.

and as mentioned, continuous nuclear blasts just makes the idea of stealth silly.... 'hurr, lets be stealthy with this new fangdangled orion drive, durr!'

If everybody's eyes are on the Orion Drive ship, they're probably not going to notice the cold-gas courier coated in radar absorbent material and presenting its smallest cross-section towards them...

[Mr Bojangles]

(Not that a ship with a terajoule-per-second drive plume is a stealthy creature to begin with...)

That could easily define battle doctrine. As in, once a combatant risks to get into the enemy's scanner range, it would be "engines on hot standby", to not to be given away by a terawatts (Joule/second) engine emission, send out the first missile volley and coast into the battlegrounds before bringing the engines back up for maneuvering when it's clear that a ship even with engines on hot standby would be detected very soon. Even if the enemy would detect a missile launch very quickly, they may still have only the missile trajectories to determine where they came from.

But of course, Loroi farseeing ability may turn around things on their ear. When they are able to scan minds, trying to be stealthy with conventional means is sort of pointless. Judging from the battle scenes, the Umiak did close in under full burn... it could their way of doing things, getting up close and personal as quickly as they can.

Unless someone finds a way to counter Loroi farseeing ability - then they might be a bit out of their water when faced with stealth tactics for some time...

There is literally no such thing as stealth in space. Unless your ship systems put out so little heat that the ship can blend into the Cosmic Microwave Background, you will be detected. You don't need to be spraying terawatts of power as a drive plume to stand out; life support would be noticeable, especially to TL11 sensors.

If everybody's eyes are on the Orion Drive ship, they're probably not going to notice the cold-gas courier coated in radar absorbent material and presenting its smallest cross-section towards them...

Spot on - stealth doesn't have to mean undetectable; "less noticeable compared to other things" could be sufficient. Tactics and feints FTW.