Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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orion1836
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by orion1836 »

discord wrote:stealth does not work in space, nor does it meaningfully work for surface ships, nor aircraft, although the speed involved with aircraft means a slightly shorter distance you are detected at can actually be useful, for ground troops it CAN work though, enough clutter to hide around in.

and as mentioned, continuous nuclear blasts just makes the idea of stealth silly.... 'hurr, lets be stealthy with this new fangdangled orion drive, durr!'
The SSV Normandy would beg to differ. :P

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Mr Bojangles
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr Bojangles »

orion1836 wrote:
discord wrote:stealth does not work in space, nor does it meaningfully work for surface ships, nor aircraft, although the speed involved with aircraft means a slightly shorter distance you are detected at can actually be useful, for ground troops it CAN work though, enough clutter to hide around in.

and as mentioned, continuous nuclear blasts just makes the idea of stealth silly.... 'hurr, lets be stealthy with this new fangdangled orion drive, durr!'
The SSV Normandy would beg to differ. :P
That was lampshaded in-game, though, wasn't it? Basically, if anyone looked out a window, the Normandy was right there, so it was a good thing that warships don't typically have windows.

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orion1836
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by orion1836 »

From the codex:
The Normandy's IES (internal emission sink) stealth system is her most notable feature. For centuries, it was assumed that starship stealth was impossible. The heat generated by routine shipboard operations is easily detectable against the near absolute zero background temperature of space. The Normandy, however, is able to temporarily "store" this heat in lithium heat sinks deep within the hull.

The IES stealth system has a few limitations: The system doesn't work during FTL flight because this blue-shifts the Normandy's emissions beyond the sinks' ability to store, and even while out of FTL, any visual scan (i.e. looking out of a window) will reveal her. However, this is rare since most ships rely on scanners rather than visual contact and spotting another ship in space is difficult. The Normandy can go to 'silent running' for around 2-3 hours, or drift passively through a system for days before having to vent and give away her position. The stored heat must eventually be radiated, or it will build up to levels capable of cooking the crew alive.
Still Applied Phlebotinum, but reasonable Phlebotinum at least. If such a thing were possible in the Outsider universe, I think it would be worth a try. The closest Umiak weapon range (SR2) is farther than geosynchronous orbit. Even the 830-meter Cry of the Wind would be damned hard to spot visually at that range, assuming they shut down external lights the way the Normandy is supposed to. Cruisers and below would be practically impossible to see. The 140ish-meter Normandy? Barely a speck on the starfield at that range.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

People haven't brought up the best way to actually see something in space: Ordinary visual spectrum. Even with today's space telescopes we can easily observe certain phenomena in interstellar distances.

The visual sensors of two tech levels above us should be more than sufficient to see anything and everything within a solar system provided a sensor network is established before hand. Add in computer based image analysis and filtering; nothing should then be undetectable because everything that isn't painted black actually reflects light but even if someone painted all their ships black their infrared spectrum would be easy to see due to light absorbance.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by White »

Arioch wrote: There was no equilibrium, it was cyclical. The hunter-gatherer tribal societies would start small and grow, and some of them would found permanent settlements and make some advances toward civilization. Meanwhile the wild tribes continued to grow and consume resources and fight amongst each other and raid the settlers (who usually had more food). Eventually the barbarians would destroy the settlers, and then most of those who weren't killed in the conflict would starve, and the population would collapse. Most of the progress of the settlers would be lost. Then the food flora and fauna would recover, and the hunter-gatherer population would start to grow again, and the cycle would repeat.
I was reading through the earlier posts on this page and when I saw this I wondered how it was possible that the barbrians could defeat the settlers.

If the settlers adopted agriculture, then they, I assume, should have had more specialization of labor and thus had more sophisticated technology and perhaps weaponry. Furthermore, the settlers would probably have had a higher carrying capacity and thus a larger population despite any population controlls.

If that were the case, then an army would probably have resolved the barbarian overpopulation issue.

Also, why did the loroi population collapse when it reached carrying capacity? On earth, as my limeted understanding tells me, humans and other creatures either migrated or had their population ocelate slightly around carrying capacity when they reached it.

Did the loroi gender distribution burden them with a sudden 90% increase of their just-below-carrying-capacity population? And if sudden collapse did happen, we're they relatively isolated on a planet or widespread?

Also, did telekinetic barbarian loroi essentially end up being the strongest in a might makes right world? Were they perhaps worshiped? (I know false gods wouldn't make it if they faked their belief in themselves, but a loroi who grew up with such great power might grow up to truly believe they were devine.)

Finally, at what stage of civilization would a strong telekinetic no longer be greatly free to act outside of the general societies will. For example: robbing someone and actually being punished.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

@White

In regards to: Agriculture equals higher tech and higher numbers.

With the same logic the Greeks and Romans would have steamrolled their northern barbarians with ease, they wouldn't have faced centuries of war and raiding until the Romans conquered large parts of Europe (except North Eastern Europe), and then were themselves attacked and fell by the Huns who themselves were far east barbarians migrating west for better pastures.

At such low tech levels the tech disparity isn't enough to guarantee much of an advantage in such conflicts while the ludicrous Loroi reproductive rate allows for a practical multiplication of the Loroi population in the span of a decade. Not just doubling but actual multiplication by a factor that could theoretically go higher than ten if every Loroi able to bear a child gives birth once an year.

EDIT: In short the Agricultural Loroi would face a huge numerical disadvantage since they would have planned their population growth to go side by side their food production output. But the Barbarians? If they crap out kids as fast as their biology allows them then they would make rats seem infertile in comparison

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

White wrote:
Arioch wrote: There was no equilibrium, it was cyclical. The hunter-gatherer tribal societies would start small and grow, and some of them would found permanent settlements and make some advances toward civilization. Meanwhile the wild tribes continued to grow and consume resources and fight amongst each other and raid the settlers (who usually had more food). Eventually the barbarians would destroy the settlers, and then most of those who weren't killed in the conflict would starve, and the population would collapse. Most of the progress of the settlers would be lost. Then the food flora and fauna would recover, and the hunter-gatherer population would start to grow again, and the cycle would repeat.
I was reading through the earlier posts on this page and when I saw this I wondered how it was possible that the barbrians could defeat the settlers.

If the settlers adopted agriculture, then they, I assume, should have had more specialization of labor and thus had more sophisticated technology and perhaps weaponry. Furthermore, the settlers would probably have had a higher carrying capacity and thus a larger population despite any population controlls.

If that were the case, then an army would probably have resolved the barbarian overpopulation issue.

Also, why did the loroi population collapse when it reached carrying capacity? On earth, as my limeted understanding tells me, humans and other creatures either migrated or had their population ocelate slightly around carrying capacity when they reached it.

Did the loroi gender distribution burden them with a sudden 90% increase of their just-below-carrying-capacity population? And if sudden collapse did happen, we're they relatively isolated on a planet or widespread?
After Deinar's ecological systems had recovered sufficiently from the bombardments, and the survivors had learned some low-tech survival skills, what you had were groups of semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers. These tribes differed from comparable neolithic human societies in two important ways:
  • These early Loroi hunter-gatherers were descendants of an ultra-tech society and had very few cultural traditions designed to help them cope in a primitive world. They were good hunters and survivalists, and still had access to salvaged high-tech gear like ceramic blades, but lacked the skills to make even stone tools, and lacked the cultural know-how to do things that neolithic humans would have taken for granted. Perhaps most significantly, they had no traditional schemes for controlling their own population growth. Each Loroi tribe had to learn from scratch, and every time a tribe was wiped out, that accumulated knowledge was lost.
  • Loroi can reproduce at essentially four times the rate that humans can; the percentage of childbearing females is almost twice as large and the generations are half as long. Though Deinar is cold and arid, the local flora and fauna are gene-tailored superfoods, and so under the right conditions even hunter-gatherers can produce a lot of food, and so will reproduce rapidly. Groups may migrate and split as they grow, but they will rapidly fill any landscape and exhaust local resources; eventual population collapse through starvation or warfare (or both) is inevitable. Then the animal and plant resources will recover, and the cycle will begin again. No human culture has ever had to cope with this kind of explosive population pressure.
Now, let's consider an early Loroi agricultural settlement. We're not talking Greeks or Romans here; these are just groups of hunter-gatherers who have settled, often near the ruins of Soia-era settlements from which they can learn some basic techniques about calendars and building structures, and over the course of a few generations develop pastoralism and primitive agriculture. They may even develop some traditions for controlling their own population growth. They become farmers rather than hunters.

Meanwhile, the neighboring hunter-gatherer tribes have been growing and depleting the local game and wild grain; they have essentially become a vast wandering army that's rapidly running out of food. But look -- there's a settlement of farmers with livestock and granaries! Both sides have similar salvaged ceramic weapons, but the hunters will have better fighting skills than the farmers and will probably vastly outnumber them. Even if a farmer group successfully defends against the first attack, telepathic word will spread far and wide to the other starving barbarian hordes that there's a peach ripe for plucking.

It was not until the development of the caste system, which allowed even the hunter-gatherers to control their own population growth, and the development of iron working, which allowed the settlements to better defend what they had built, that civilization was able to take root and break the cycle.
White wrote:Also, did telekinetic barbarian loroi essentially end up being the strongest in a might makes right world? Were they perhaps worshiped? (I know false gods wouldn't make it if they faked their belief in themselves, but a loroi who grew up with such great power might grow up to truly believe they were devine.)

Finally, at what stage of civilization would a strong telekinetic no longer be greatly free to act outside of the general societies will. For example: robbing someone and actually being punished.
Such tribes are usually led by the strongest among them, and having superior telepathic or psychokinetic abilities would definitely give one a significant leg up in this contest. However, psi power doesn't make one invincible; even Fireblade can be killed by an unexpected spear in the back. Might makes right in primitive societies, but leadership skills are as important as individual fighting ability when it comes to establishing and maintaining power.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by novius »

Population growth can be described with differential equations, AFAIK, meaning the rate in absolute figures is defined by the actual number of people any given point of time. And they do have the tendency to behave quite unpredictable.

Set the parameters right and you would have an oscillation in population numbers, especially if you set the reproduction rate quite high. In layman's terms, the population numbers would quickly 'overshoot' the sustainability and continue to rise for a bit until the limitation of resources makes itself known by starvation.

For a visual representation, look up Wator and try to fiddle with the numbers.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Absalom »

Then add the occasional drought or similar, and realize that you can make it even worse: as the Australian Rat Plagues demonstrate, a sufficiently extended period of plenty can result in a significantly larger than normal population, and then swing you below the average carrying capacity, thereby incurring this on even semi-restrained populations. When you consider that the Earth at least has climate cycles in both the 100-year and 1000-year ranges, and that the Mongols were a threat to Medieval Europe despite not using as heavy of armor, and it becomes easy to see how a civilization could just be getting started, or even have been around for a while, only to get knocked out by a sudden aggressive migration.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by White »

Arioch wrote: It was not until the development of the caste system, which allowed even the hunter-gatherers to control their own population growth, and the development of iron working, which allowed the settlements to better defend what they had built, that civilization was able to take root and break the cycle.
Is it known what happened on that particular cycle that pushed barbarians to adopt a caste system?

It seems that this over population issue with the barbarians is a tragedy of the commons type scenario that generally can't be resolved without some foresight (or knowledge of the past), jolly old co-operation, and maybe a higher authority to keep all parties in line.

These elements seem to be in short supply at the time.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

White wrote:
Arioch wrote: It was not until the development of the caste system, which allowed even the hunter-gatherers to control their own population growth, and the development of iron working, which allowed the settlements to better defend what they had built, that civilization was able to take root and break the cycle.
Is it known what happened on that particular cycle that pushed barbarians to adopt a caste system?

It seems that this over population issue with the barbarians is a tragedy of the commons type scenario that generally can't be resolved without some foresight (or knowledge of the past), jolly old co-operation, and maybe a higher authority to keep all parties in line.

These elements seem to be in short supply at the time.
At some point some hunter gatherers may have figured out that protecting the farmers (for a price) was more beneficial in the long run. Especially when the farmesrs start to crank out more advanced weapons to arms them with then the other roaming bands had available.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by JQBogus »

Sweforce wrote: At some point some hunter gatherers may have figured out that protecting the farmers (for a price) was more beneficial in the long run. Especially when the farmesrs start to crank out more advanced weapons to arms them with then the other roaming bands had available.

So the farmers become the civilian castes, and the HG's become the military ones?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

JQBogus wrote:
Sweforce wrote: At some point some hunter gatherers may have figured out that protecting the farmers (for a price) was more beneficial in the long run. Especially when the farmesrs start to crank out more advanced weapons to arms them with then the other roaming bands had available.

So the farmers become the civilian castes, and the HG's become the military ones?
Probably it was 50/50, with time the farmers would get the infrastructure to make them dominant weapon producers while the hunter gatherers would have their numbers and survival skills. When things would stabilize both groups would intermingle before setting down the castes properly.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Absalom »

Judging from India, several castes may have even originated within/as specific tribes, too.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Suederwind »

After reading a bit about the Indian caste system I wonder: are there any Loroi that are not in a military or civilian caste and what is their stand in Loroi society? Is there something like an "untouchable" caste in Loroi society, like the Indian "Paria" or "Harijan"?
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

White wrote:Is it known what happened on that particular cycle that pushed barbarians to adopt a caste system?
It didn't happen all at once in one cycle, but slowly over time; people began to specialize for different tasks. A key specialization which accelerated progress was the development of record-keeping specialists (the ancestors of the modern Ninzadi and Listel) who could provide some continuity to build on. There were varying approaches for keeping these specialists alive during population crashes; in the Daiam peninsula (which was somewhat isolated from the mainland), the record-keepers were male and exempted from fighting. In the region that would eventually become Arran, the record-keepers were females who lived outside the tribes as hermits in the cavelike ruins in the mountains.
Suederwind wrote:After reading a bit about the Indian caste system I wonder: are there any Loroi that are not in a military or civilian caste and what is their stand in Loroi society? Is there something like an "untouchable" caste in Loroi society, like the Indian "Paria" or "Harijan"?
There's no direct equivalent to India's "untouchables." The civilians are in general an underclass, but not to that degree.

There are those who can't or won't participate in the Loroi cultural system, but unless they are located on the fringes of inhabited areas, they probably won't survive long. There are still nomadic traditionalists who still live as hunter-gatherers in wild areas, but they usually follow a caste system of their own, which is often more strict and harsh than the modern version.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

I cannot see any reason why there could not be some individual loroi that have practically abandoned the cast system altogether while living with the unions allies as various specialists. In the longrun, if security permits (the war ends?) and regular communication with humanity space are opened up some may end up here.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Sweforce wrote:I cannot see any reason why there could not be some individual loroi that have practically abandoned the cast system altogether while living with the unions allies as various specialists. In the longrun, if security permits (the war ends?) and regular communication with humanity space are opened up some may end up here.
Depends on what you mean by "abandon the caste system." If a Loroi individual can somehow arrange passage to an alien world, then sure, she can live out her days in an alien society under alien rules instead of the Loroi caste system. But she won't any longer be a part of Loroi society, and she won't ever be able to reproduce.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Suederwind »

There's no direct equivalent to India's "untouchables." The civilians are in general an underclass, but not to that degree.
I didn't mean the civilians in general, but maybe there is some kind of civilian caste that most other Loroi try to avoid?

Can Loroi be cast out of their caste, as some form of punishment?
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Suederwind wrote:
There's no direct equivalent to India's "untouchables." The civilians are in general an underclass, but not to that degree.
I didn't mean the civilians in general, but maybe there is some kind of civilian caste that most other Loroi try to avoid?
Not really. Social status does vary within the civilian class (aerospace engineers are higher status than sewage handlers) but it's a question of degree rather than a sharp division. The lowest of the low would probably be the work gangs that local governments use to employ criminals or people who have fallen through the cracks of the system, but even this is not comparable to the social exclusion of India's untouchables.
Suederwind wrote:Can Loroi be cast out of their caste, as some form of punishment?
Not usually. A civilian guild operates similar to a company, with many levels of potential promotion and demotion within, including low-level menial jobs for those who are less skilled or less industrious, but there is a social contract between the guild and workers, and so once accepted into a guild, members cannot normally be expelled. Demotions and/or reductions in or suspensions of benefits or pay (if any) can be used as a form of punishment for incompetence or insubordination. In extreme examples of guild members who refuse to work or are actively disruptive, psychological intervention or criminal prosecution may become necessary.

A civilian individual can (under normal circumstances) voluntarily quit a guild, but she will then need to either apply to a new guild, start her own business, or emigrate. Otherwise, she'll end up in a work gang.

Unlike civilians, warriors can be expelled from military castes similar to a dishonorable discharge.

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