Hyperspace

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Trantor
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Trantor »

Arioch wrote:Some xkcd-style musings on failure modes of jump travel.

Image

(Split into a new thread to avoid dragging the other one further off topic.)
A little nitpicking on the exclamation:
Actually it is "Liberate tutemet ex infer(n)is". ;)

"Tutemet" is an odd/hoity-toity form for "all of you". Normally a "Vos" or "Vosmet" would do.
And you can use both "infernis" or "inferis" in this context, but "inferis" seems more appropiate as it is a more definitive word for "(under)world of the dead", while "infernis" (only) generally means "underworld".

HTH ;)
sapere aude.

elizibar
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by elizibar »

Trantor wrote:
Arioch wrote:Some xkcd-style musings on failure modes of jump travel.

Image

(Split into a new thread to avoid dragging the other one further off topic.)
A little nitpicking on the exclamation:
Actually it is "Liberate tutemet ex infer(n)is". ;)

"Tutemet" is an odd/hoity-toity form for "all of you". Normally a "Vos" or "Vosmet" would do.
And you can use both "infernis" or "inferis" in this context, but "inferis" seems more appropiate as it is a more definitive word for "(under)world of the dead", while "infernis" (only) generally means "underworld".

HTH ;)
It's a reference from the movie Event Horizon:

D.J.: I wasn't going to tell you this. I've been listening to the distress signal, and I, um, think I made a mistake in the translation.
[Plays the distress signal]
Miller: Go on.
D.J.: I thought it said "liberate me" - "save me." But it's not "me." It's "liberate tutame" - "save yourself." And it gets worse.
[Plays the distress signal again]
D.J.: There - I think that says "ex inferis." "Save yourself... from hell." Look, if what Doctor Weir tells us is true, this ship has been beyond the boundaries of our universe, of known scientific reality. Who knows where it's been, what it's seen. Or what it's brought back with it.
Miller: From hell.

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Trantor
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Trantor »

elizibar wrote:It's a reference from the movie Event Horizon:
I know.
elizibar wrote:D.J.: I thought it said "liberate me" - "save me." But it's not "me." It's "liberate tutame"
There is no latin word like that.
sapere aude.

elizibar
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by elizibar »

Trantor wrote:There is no latin word like that.
Okay so add a [sic] to the quote and go pick a nit with the person that wrote the screenplay, not the rest of us that have to live with the quote as it exists in this reality.

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Trantor
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Trantor »

elizibar wrote:
Trantor wrote:There is no latin word like that.
Okay so add a [sic] to the quote and go pick a nit with the person that wrote the screenplay, not the rest of us that have to live with the quote as it exists in this reality.
Battleraptor, is it you (again)? ;)
sapere aude.

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Arioch
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Arioch »

It's meant to be a humorous reference to the line from the movie, and not an attempt to demonstrate proper Latin. :)

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Trantor
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Trantor »

Arioch wrote:It's meant to be a humorous reference to the line from the movie, and not an attempt to demonstrate proper Latin. :)
Admit it, you´re just too lazy to fix it. :mrgreen:

Just jokin´. You know that we germans are square blockheads. :ugeek: ;)



Another little thing:
"How long does it take, in hyperspace, to go 1 ly? And for in-system purposes, what's the max speed for most ships?

The jump is almost instantaneous, but since your jump range is limited to about 10 LY, traveling a long way means making a lot of jumps, and traveling in-system from one jump point to another. There's no maximum in-system speed, but ships will very rarely go more than 10% lightspeed"


Pls correct me if i´m wrong, but at 30g you´ll need about a day to reach 0.1c (t = c/g = 3x 10^8 / 30 x 9.81 s = 10^6s ≈ 1 day).
Wouldn´t that be a bit too long?
sapere aude.

elizibar
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by elizibar »

You know Arioch, if hyperspace is 'off the brane' so to speak, then I wonder what the consequences are for normal matter. Force particles that aren't gravitons and matter particles are normally limited to living on the 3+1 dimensional brane. Kicking them into a region where they can't normally live would have... interesting consequences. Too bad I'm an astro guy and not a strings guy, or I'd know what those would be.

Does the jump drive erect a bubble of semi-stable space-time around the matter that's going into hyperspace (in effect creating its own unstable universe for the ship and crew and their constituent particles to live in)? Or does it curve space up tightly around the ship, ripping a chunk of space-time from the parent universe temporarily? In either case the energy needed would be quite large (probably scaling with (size of the ship)^4) and it should probably produce observable gravitational waves at both the entrance and exit points in addition to the flash of light (which is probably a consequence of particles being accelerated in steep gravitational gradients as the pocket of space the ship occupied is reincorporated into the original brane again and releasing radiation to lower their energy state).

The sorts of gravitational shearing you'd get from these scenarios would certainly explain why you'd need some kind of 'inertial dampening' to keep the crew from being reduced to jelly and the ship ripped apart. The former scenario (the jump drive creating an unstable 'pocket universe') also might explain the poor reaction of living organisms to the jump: the physical parameters of the new space-time they're occupying may not be exactly what they're used to. This potentially could have effect on chemistry, which means on pretty much all biological processes. The instataniety (I think I just coined a new word) of the jump might be explained by the jump drive only creating a 3-spatial dimension space for the ship to occupy: manipulating a time dimension might not be possible for unknown technical reasons with this device.

...and I think I'll stop here before I go on and on.

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Arioch »

elizibar: I don't know that the jump field necessarily causes the ship to take a chunk of space-time into hyperspace with it, but that's certainly an interesting way to think about it. Though I wonder what would happen to this bubble of space-time when the ship attempts to re-embed in realspace. But it terms of holding the ship's matter together during jump, I'm depending on the inertial damping field to do the job.
Trantor wrote:Pls correct me if i´m wrong, but at 30g you´ll need about a day to reach 0.1c (t = c/g = 3x 10^8 / 30 x 9.81 s = 10^6s ≈ 1 day).
Wouldn´t that be a bit too long?
Yes, and you'd probably overshoot whatever your in-system target was (from a standing start you'd displace about 10 AU). The question wasn't "what is a typical in-system speed?" but rather "what is the max in-system speed?" But I can see that my answer could be stated more clearly.

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Trantor
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Trantor »

Arioch wrote:
Trantor wrote:Pls correct me if i´m wrong, but at 30g you´ll need about a day to reach 0.1c (t = c/g = 3x 10^8 / 30 x 9.81 s = 10^6s ≈ 1 day).
Wouldn´t that be a bit too long?
Yes, and you'd probably overshoot whatever your in-system target was (from a standing start you'd displace about 10 AU). The question wasn't "what is a typical in-system speed?" but rather "what is the max in-system speed?" But I can see that my answer could be stated more clearly.
Ah. I thought that would be jump-speed. How fast is jump-speed then?
sapere aude.

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by GeoModder »

Looks like the proper speed can be relatively low if courier vessels are able to accelerate to "jump speed" within the jump zone of a star system. At least that's my understanding after reading the new/latest Systems Defense article.
Image

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Arioch »

System transit speeds need to be up around 1% lightspeed (3,000 km/s) if you want to be able to cross the system in less than a week, and I wouldn't want ships to have to waste too much fuel slowing down before every jump. On the other hand, you want the couriers to be able to get up to jump speed relatively quickly from their relay bases; 1,000 km/s takes a little bit less than an hour at 30G. So we need a pretty wide range of possible jump speeds.

How fast you need to be going depends on how deep you are in the gravity well, and if we need a wider range, we can say that this velocity gradient is pretty steep. So I would guess that a nominal jump velocity at optimum distance is something like 1,500 km/s, but can vary substantially from 800-3,000 km/s depending on where you jump from and how deep into the target system you want to arrive.

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I would imagine that .1c is a bit harder for Terran vessels since they don't have nearly the kind of acceleration that the Loroi or Umiak have. If you needed to turn around for any reason, it would take quite a bit longer at 6G. (about 6 days to stop, and another 6 days to get moving back in the other direction)

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Arioch »

.1c is 10% lightspeed, and that's really too fast to be practical even at 30G. .01c is 1%, and about 14 hours' acceleration at 6G.

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Herpa derp derp... This is why I never did very well in math class. :lol:

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by elizibar »

Arioch wrote:elizibar: I don't know that the jump field necessarily causes the ship to take a chunk of space-time into hyperspace with it, but that's certainly an interesting way to think about it. Though I wonder what would happen to this bubble of space-time when the ship attempts to re-embed in realspace. But it terms of holding the ship's matter together during jump, I'm depending on the inertial damping field to do the job.
Well those thoughts were consequences of your off-hand comment about string theory up there somewhere above. If a 'modern' string theory is true in Outsider, then as a consequence, force particles can't leave the brane (except for gravitons) because they're all open strings. Ergo, the jump field either must displace/distort a portion of the original brane with it into hyperspace somehow, or generate a new brane (a pocket universe) with it that it carries off out of the 3+1 dimensional universe to let the ship to survive.

It is kind of hard to talk about 'string theory' because there are so many different versions of it out there (and none of them give testable predictions yet that could falsify them).

Anyway, just some ramblings from someone who knows just enough General Relativity to get himself into trouble thinking about this kind of thing.

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Trantor »

Image

:mrgreen:
sapere aude.

elizibar
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Re: Hyperspace

Post by elizibar »

I have two responses:

1) Thank god this is science fiction!

2) I never really liked those catgirls anyway >.>

:lol:

edit: Actually a third response: Who said string theory was real physics, it doesn't make any testable predictions, so it's all fantasy too. ;)

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Mayhem »

Trantor wrote:Image
As an aside:
Does anyone know what anime this is from?
I find myself curious about the original context.
Particle beam cannons are mass drivers :D
Fireblade's character sheet: '-1: Telepathically "talks" in sleep' 8-)

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Re: Hyperspace

Post by Blackbox »

Mayhem wrote:
Trantor wrote:Image
As an aside:
Does anyone know what anime this is from?
I find myself curious about the original context.
This looks familiar...what was that anime that had a cat-girl maid running around with a ray-gun, shooting human girls with it to
turn them into cat-girls, eventually forming a cat-girl maid army? Hold on, let me google around...

...

Okay, looks like it was "UFO Princess Valkyrie". Googling on "cat girl gun" gave a link to a video sample on the first page, and an
image search on "UFO Princess Valkyrie" gave another image of those four cat-girls (a teeny-tiny 120 x 90 .gif ... one could actually miss it on a first look-through).

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